Why didn’t the Indians just domesticate deer and buffalo? Low IQs?

Because farming is an Aryan

White people are the masters of agriculture

Indians were just brutal prairie savages that killed and raped in a horrible cycle

you are retarded and you don't belong on a history forum.

you have to go back

Indo-Europeans were pastoralists, farming and agriculture came from Anatolia and Levant. Aryans (as Indo-Aryans in India) also weren't farmers.

However, you need to consider the size of the herd. Buffalos go around in thousands. Thousands of big, nigger-cows dedicated to protect their alpha nigger-cow against a dozen of redskins with pesky stone tools as weapons. What are the odds in favour of the amerindians?

>deer

They are timid and jump very high. Their effort to reward ratio would have been extremely low when you consider how plentiful they would have been in the wild.

Indians probably domesticated dogs, but dogs practically domesticated themselves.

i suppose. the herds of Aurochs couldn't have been to large considering they were first domesticated in a fairly mountainous region in Anatolia.

IQ is completely 100% established.

IQ isn't a perfect measure but the idea it is pseudoscience it laughable, I can guarantee that if you took a group of Physics professors and gave them an IQ test none of them are going to score 80.

Posting garbage arguments like this just helps the /pol/ types and makes them more convinced they are right.

>naturally domesticated
What does that mean?

You can only domesticate animals that have a built in sense of "society" aka hierarchy. Like horses, wolves etc. With those animals humans can take the role of the pack leader. Also the time it takes for a youg animal to grow up and procreate is a huge factor as well. Hogs breed fast hence you can create a good selection of offsprings fit for domestic care in a span of 15-20 years with multiple generations of domesticated animals.
Buffalos lack both of these, and are also just way easier to go out and hunt. Deer lack hierarchy and can jump too high to contain easily.
You can somehow tame them if you try really hard but the you have to start again with every new generation. Hence ita just not worth the effort.

What kind of "sense of heirarchy" did pre-domestication horses or cattle have that buffalo don't?
At any rate buffalo ranches are a thing that exist right now, so the argument that they are impossible to handle falls flat.

Why would anyone domesticate deer? They're not strong enough to be draught animals, their timidity makes them difficult to catch and they'll bash themselves against fences to escape from people, they can jump like 8ft high, not to mention the male's antlers can fucking kill you. In order to domesticate deer in spite of these factors, there would need to be enough native cereal grains and other farmable crops to justify staying in one place as opposed to just hunting and gathering, since deer were plentiful. In places like Mexico and Peru where Injuns did have suitable crops, they developed civilization with few domesticated animals. But for North Native Americans farming or fuck forbid driving deer as nomadic pastoralists was pretty shitty compared to existing options.

Animal group decision making is classified as "despotic" or "democratic" depending on whether groups follow the actions of high-ranking animals or majoritarian actions (through things like positive behavioural feedback loops) more often. Not sure about aurochs, but modern cattle are much more "despotic" than the mixed structure of bison herds, which are more based on extended family.

You’re describing what ancient horses were like

Wtf are you talking about

Kek

why are their horns arched backwards like that? why not forwards?

They swing their heads side to side to defend themselves

Considering that they regularly hunted and ate buffalo, I'd say pretty good odds actually, even better if they have horses.

When they say buffalo they mean bison, not water buffaloes

>what is herding

>herding deer
Lol okay. When did Europeans do that, I wonder?

Deer are inherently unsuited for ranching and it was far more efficient to hunt buffalo. Amerindians preferred to engineer their surrounding ecosystems with controlled burns, goal-oriented cultivation, and influencing wildlife migrations. It's fascinating how well natives did in making the environment work FOR them.

quora.com/Did-any-Native-American-peoples-cultivate-forests-that-they-lived-in-or-near

saami

Not every animal can be domesticated. Many are particularly difficult. See the zebra in Africa as the best example. Still can't be domesticated.

...

The situations of the common American whitetail deer and the reindeer are VERY different. It's like the difference between raising mice and rats.

>I don’t like it when /pol/ derails threads.
>I know.
>I’ll derail them instead.
>Hail /leftypol/!

Predators generally try to bite the back of the neck

They didn't live as externalities to their ecological communities.
More or less they domesticated entire ecoregions.
Why go through the trouble of domesticating bison or turkeys when you can just start a fire here and there and eat all you want.
Domestication is degenerate.

Bison ranching is a thing in the U.S., but it's true that they are not truly tamed. You don't need concrete walls. Regular fencing works fine. Most Bison ranchers put a ring of cattle pastures between the bison pastures and the road, so when they do break the fence there is time to get them before they leave the greater ranch premises.
t. Worked on a bison ranch in South Dakota

Search "buffalo farm" on google images

Except iq is not science user.
>posting this
Nice scientific answer

Ancient horses were capable of being ridden by humans. Their weight was higher than 200kg. Probably 300kg in average.

He needs a hair cut

I hope you realize deer herding is a thing.

Is that because the bison are more valuable, or just because they are more likely to break the fence?

The Samiis and siberians. You Know santa claus?

>I can guarantee that if you took a group of Physics professors and gave them an IQ test none of them are going to score 80.

Exactly, IQ is a measure of education rather than natural intelligence which is nigh impossible to measure

But the bisons mostly aten were more or less random picks. Selecting the alpha cow to kill it in order to then somehow donesticate them is a whole another level

A horse is actually useful retard

I lived in Wyoming for a while and these things really are fucking massive.

Keked.

IIRC the Aztecs had some nature preserves/zoos where they kept deer, but I don't think that would qualify for domestication, just taming, if even that

Today

There are deer and bison native to Europe. Europeans never domesticated them. Obvious sign of low IQ.

pic-related: a European bison. People seem to forget they aren't extinct.

They had already researched hunting dogs and didnt want to waste resources on learning husbandry

stop embarrassing yourself.

>make pen for deer
>they just jump over

>not enough meat to make up for calories lost hunting them
>no horses or horse like animals to run as fast as them
>burden and riding them will break their backs
>fucking antlers can gut you when you aren't careful

this is why no one comes to you for survival tips

Native Americans were able to kill buffalo without guns just fine. It has more to do with greed than firepower.

killing a buffalo takes little less prep and skill than killing an elephant

and it only REALLY became a sport when horses were introduced (people keep forgetting there were no horses in the Americas before the Euros showed up).

there was 0 need to do so

Buffalo are closely related to the yak that was easily domesticated. Stop defending tards, asians domesticated the water buffalo, probably the most dangerous animal besides the hippo.

youtu.be/ley7Iile9G4?t=25

Deer can jump

(you)'re literally just as bad as pol

Buffalo are unpredictable and can easily kill people. They can knock down or plow through fences and jump 6 feet in the air from standing, and idiots get gored every year for standing too close.
Deer are behaviorally not suited to enclosed spaces and supervised breeding.

Aurochs were nasty if provoked but weren't generally aggressive IIRC.

Deer are fucking rats with horns they have no purpose other than to feed carnivorous animals in the area, spread Lyme disease carrying ticks and dent my civic

a better question is why did all the native North American Equus Ferrus die out?

>The horse family Equidae and the genus Equus evolved in North America, before the species moved into the Eastern Hemisphere.[27]
seems weird that the entire genus originated in North America and then spread across Eurasia, only to go completely extinct in their place of origin ~10,000 BP before being reintroduced.

I saw something about a mini ice age wiping them out but now l can’t find it

the LGM didn't do it, I don't see why the end of the Younger Dryas alone would. Seems to me like they were all eaten.
>Digs in western Canada have unearthed clear evidence horses existed in North America until about 12,000 years ago.[33]

I don’t get it why eat horses when bison are available? They encompass largely the same terrain

they must have been really tasty

Because domesticating wildlife is fucking HARD

Throughout human history only a tiny handful of species have been domesticated and genetic analysis reveals most of those domesticated varieties have a small number of genetic ancestors. That implies that they were domesticated in one spot and then spread around as having human protection would mean they would naturally be more abundant than their wild cousins. So each civilization that used domestic X species did not (and in fact very overwhelmingly probably didn't) necessarily domesticate said species themselves.

Given that a better question than "why didn't so and so society engender a village or individual that managed to understand and be lucky enough to successfully domesticate a certain species?" would be:

>How in the hell did anyone ever manage to domesticate current livestock species?

Especially considering it isn't as simple as some king just up and ordering either his subjects or a specific rancher to domesticate some random species of animal. I mean even simple concepts like the scientific method aren't as old as a lot of domesticated species.

Or you know, fuck all of that and lets just rip on people that look different while circle jerking to how awesome we are for being comparatively physically similar to the specific people that actually obtained these accomplishments.

Whitetail deer would have no purpose as domesticated animals; too shy and aloof. Reindeer can be and were domesticated

Can't you just breed those traits out? Like get the retarded ones that aren't scared of humans and have them fuck a lot.

Focusing everything around intelligence is so boring.

They chased thousands off cliffs en-masse, letting the whole herd plummet to their deaths to harvest them which is pretty bad ass. Also it's virtually impossible to herd if you can't move faster than the animals themselves and horses didn't exist in the Americas till after Columbus.

I've heard those mass graves are because of catastrophic flooding.

>horses didn't exist in the Americas till after Columbus
wrong, they actually evolved there.

>tries recording anything outside
>fucking wind ear rape in background drowns out everything
When will the people who design this shit ever fix this problem I swear it annoys me to no end.

Kek. Someone got DEERED.

Probably got hunted to extinction by carnivores more than people honestly. Plus the American plains stretch more North South than the East West Eurasian steppe, which doesn't leave a lot of climatically similar plains to roam across.

Until R1 individuals migrated from Beringia. The extinction of horses coincides with the arrival of these people.

can you link to your source on native R1, dating?

I've read that tribes would force groups of bison off of cliffs dressing like wolves and chasing with spheres also with dmoesticated wolves in some cases. I don't feel like researching references but I remember reading this in a decent non fiction book.

There was no need.
It's just that simple.
How you avoided reaching that conclusion actually proves you have a low IQ.

>"Other authorities point to the greater similarity between haplogroup R1 subclades found in North America and those found in Siberia (e.g. Lell [11] and Raghavan [12]), suggesting prehistoric immigration from Asia and/or Beringia, deriving from two major Siberian migrations. The first migration came from middle Siberia with the founding haplotype P-M45(x Q-M3). A second migration came from southeastern Siberia (Lower Amur/Sea of Okhkotsk/Kamchatka region) with the founding haplotype P-M45(x R1-M173), delineated by the RPS4Y-T marker, and took place at 7,000–9,500 years before present. Significant frequencies of RPS4Y-T are found in several northern Amerindian and Na-Dene populations (Bergen et al. 1999; Karafet et al. 1999), and in Lake Baikal region and Mongolia (Karafet et al. 1999), but is absent in Europeans (Bergen et al. 1999), reaching its highest frequencies in the populations of eastern Siberia. The P-M45(x R1-M173) subhaplogroup essentially seems to connect the population of eastern Siberians with the North- and Central-American Na-Dene and the surrounding Amerindian speakers. The RPS4Y-T diversification lends toward east Asia. The data correlates well with previous conclusions about the maternal migrations into Americas.[13]"

>"R1-positive P-M45 tested populations: Udegeys, Koryaks, North- and Central-American natives.[13]"

deer are impossible to domesticate. actually, very few animals are. Deer don't have any heirarchy. you can't situate yourself as "head deer" or control the head dear and use that to control the rest of the herd. they just fuck off and pick a new leader.

buffalo, I don't know. Pretty sure someone would have tried.

anyway, what is it with blaming the people for the shit that happens around them? you do know that Horses are not native to the US, but when Native Americans got ahold of them they became expert riders.

you transcend retardation. anyone with domesticable plants farms them. there was farming in Mesoamerica, centuries before the Sparniards arrived to fuck things up. There just isn't much in North America that is worth farming. What there is, the natives were doing that. You know Potatoes are originally American, right? along with tobacco, cotton, and corn

Inuit farm elk. U.S. natives cultivated peppers, squash, corn, and beans. That shit took a thousand fucking years. What is wrong with you people.

established as culturally biased and a poor indicator of raw intelligence. look, if I dropped you in the woods, would you know how to find edible plants, shelter, and trap animals? no. so the average African Bushman would think you were pretty unintelligent. any monkey can be trained to do math. cleverness, the ability to make plans, weigh consequences, reason abstractly, anticipate the thoughts and actions of another, and a ton of other skills are incredibly hard to measure with one test

you know, Labrador/Newfoundland, the Canadian Maritimes, and New England were settled by seafaring peoples who invented the toggling harpoon at that time when the sea level was still significantly lower than it is in modern times

You bring up things like that and they go 'oh yawn' as if doing that shit is easy and did not have major effects across the world. The fucking natives are somewhat kinda in a weird way, responsible for the potato famine, because they were the ones who cultivated the fuckers in the first place.

you can. I remember a Russian scientist that bred a strain of domesticated foxes. The thing is, that Russian was paid to fuck around deciding which foxes would yiff and which ones would get turned into coats. Also, it took around 50 generations and the project wasn't completed until after that scientist was dead.

Who the fuck is going to pay some nomadic tribesman to screw around with dangerous, stupid deer for 50, or so, generations until one of them possibly maybe turned out to be useful? The other nomadic tribesmen? Last I heard, hunter-gatherer lifestyle didn't pay too well.

remember, the vast majority of innovations in human life have come in the last few centuries, and pretty much came to specific area by sharing information. the first thing you need to start any kind of scientific exploration is someone to pay your bills while you screw off.

it is also subtly punitive, bordering on racist. I don't get blaming the people for problems, without first trying to understand just what the problem is and what the solution entails

No. The potato famine had to do with the English wanted to quell their population and the farming of extremely limited breeds of crops so when they went belly up they said fuck it, there are too many Irish anyway. Your comment makes no sense.

Both were actually semi domesticated.

Most Indians actually farmed like the Southern Desert tribes planted corn. Or the Aztecs who had water gardens.

>naturally
Nope. We bred them for passivity. Killed the aggressive genes.

why go to the trouble of domesticating the animals when there’s more buffalo and deer than you could shake a stick at? North American agriculture involved very little labour comparatively, and all the horses died out after the ice age, along with the mammoths, tigers, etc.