Do you Wehraboos and Prussaboos and Byzaboos have any idea how lucky you are? Do you not realize how easy you have it?

The Romans never salted the earth around Carthage. They eventually captured it during the Third Punic War and it went on to become one of the most fertile and wealthy provinces of the Roman Empire. That myth was some bullshit made up by an 18th century historian. It is never mentioned once in a single ancient source.

>that tried to be Rome
No they didn't. They just wanted to be (((merchants))), Rome is the one that got all butthurt about it. Italians just can't help but get into fights with people.

That one i actually do know of. But it sounds cool so i like saying it.

at least you got a cool song

youtube.com/watch?v=hZ7RD7ebZUA

>mfw I actually learned this as a child via Rome Total War

Why the fuck would I burn a valuable advanced trading hub to the ground when I could simply take it over and make it my own? The Romans were pragmatic if nothing else when it came to gold.

>Try being a Carthaboo. Go ahead, try it. Imagine booing over a language that's entirely extinct, with only a rudimentary alphabet and certain words worked out.
That's the fun of it, though. It's still an unknown, it feels fresh and not played out.

Come on, this is Veeky Forums. Poeple who have that sort of academic integrity and curiosity aren't going to call themselves "boos". They also are probably going to be at least slightly familiar with what information there is, and not get all buttflustered about unpleasant facts concerning their object of affection a la , nor do they go off on autistic rants about other groups of people.

OP is definitely either trying to start a shitstorm, lazily baiting, or is in fact a sports team style enthusiast.

>Poeple who have that sort of academic integrity and curiosity aren't going to call themselves "boos".
I think you'd be surprised.
>They also are probably going to be at least slightly familiar with what information there is, and not get all buttflustered about unpleasant facts concerning their object of affection
Yeah that's probably true. It's kinda difficult for me to grant benefit of the doubt at that point. There's being trapped in introductory stuff and then there's... that.
>OP is definitely either trying to start a shitstorm, lazily baiting, or is in fact a sports team style enthusiast.
That's basically 99% of Veeky Forums though.
I've accepted that if I want to have anything resembling a quality discussion, I really need to work for it and try to give people the benefit of the doubt. Because I do think there is a decent portion of people who are reasonably educated and interested in history, but come here to shitpost and inject their Veeky Forums sense of humor into it.

>Ah yes, all of these plebs are below me. I am a true scholar, if only these pissants could emulate me more.
Stop smelling your own farts, faggot.

Have you read that paper? I have. It's filled with typical historical bickering bullshit of an upstart person in the field trying to take a contrarian stance to a commonly held belief. I agree with the basic premise that it's probably more of a stretch to call them child cemetaries than places of sacrifice; however, the vast amount of ridiculous extrapolating she does culminating in the absurdist statement toward the end of that article of "These phoenicians just wanted to sacrifice kids without being judged so they founded Carthage" is fucking loony and epitomizes much that is wrong with modern historical scholarship.

Everyone wants to be that person who gets to say "Ackchyually..."

>fanboying over Carthage
Fucking why. People admire Prussia because of its military achievements, people admire "Byzantium" because it delayed Islamic expansion into Eastern Europe for centuries, and some people admire the Wehrmacht for its military prowess and aesthetic. What the hell did the Carthaginians accomplish?

They established a massive trade empire, explored the Atlantic, made advancements in shipbuilding and naval warfare, and obviously Hannibal BTFO'd Rome at Cannae.

>Carthaboo thinks he has it bad

you are smalltime

Just convert to Judaism its the closest you'll get at this point.

Gave us the greatest war ever fought.

I call myself (to myself, not to others) a Slavaboo and I'm a grad student in Russian cultural/political history. It's a cringey term but it's true in my case, I un-ironically find all things Slavic (not just Russian) fascinating. Part of me thinks I might have had a past life there, from the first time I encountered Russia as a child (I think it was the cartoon Anastasia top jej) I was bizarrely fascinated and repulsed by the place at the same time. Still feel basically the same way about it desu.

oh no no no no

To be fair isn't there way more to work with archaeologically in Mesoamerica? Not to mention there are people still living there who speak the Mesoamerican languages and they've deciphered at least some of the script.

How much of the Atlantic? Sources? Genuinely interested.

Bruh. Look at this dude.

Oh no no, wait till you see the...

Oh no no no no ohhhhh *inhales*

AHAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Hanno the Navigator explored the western coast of Africa. Some claim he actually rounded the Cape, others say he never made it any further than Morocco, and the middle-of-the-ground consensus seems to be that he made it to about modern-day Gabon.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanno_the_Navigator

the third punic war started because Carthage needed to raise an army to fight off numidian and nomad incursions and thus broke the treaty with Rome, right?

why didn't they just invite Rome to send the legions to both tie them down in meatgrinder and also spare the cash?

>why didn't they just invite Rome to send the legions to both tie them down in meatgrinder and also spare the cash?
Rome has a history of coming to the aid of their allies and then not leaving after the war has been won.

Is the language not that well understood?

I'd figure it'd be a very close relative of ancient Hebrew which I assume is very well known.

they were coming no matter what

better to do what Jugurtha did and get Legions on your territory, shower them with gold and pamper them until they lose all will to fight, and then just let the Romans go at eachother.

Phoenician and Hebrew are both Semitic languages, but the similarities end there. The language isn't that well understood, no. From what I understand, we've worked out a decent amount of vocabulary and basic grammar, but still no where near to the point where anyone can really be said to "speak" Carthaginian/Phoenician, not in the way that you can speak Classical Latin or Ancient Greek, for example

Carthage was pretty broke after the Second Punic War, they lost all of their overseas territories and a lot of their trade connections as a result. Hannibal Barca ran for office and tried creating economic and political reforms that would allow them to pay off their war debts, but the reforms proved very unpopular with the landed elites and they forced him into exile.

>itt
Fuck you Roman shit. Romanes eunt domus.

First off, we just have very little in the way of written material, just inscriptions. That makes it hard to reconstruct, as longer passages are almost always easier to work out than multiple shorter ones. And while it's definitely a semitic language, and yes, related to Hebrew, you've got some differences, enough to make things difficult.

For instance, "Carthage" is an Anglicization of the Latin "Carthago" which is itself a slight modification of Carthaginian "Qarth-Hadasht" Working from Hebrew, we have "Hadash" for new, but "Qarth" (City) has no understood etymology as far as I'm aware. If it was Hebrew, to say "New City" we'd go עיר חדש (Sounding something like Ear-Hadash)

Also, as a total aside, it's incredibly depressing just how bad most Hebrew translations are. You'd think that like, thousands of years of a holy book to most of Europe would spark an interest in translating it right, but an astonishing number of errors creep in, sometimes affecting broad swaths of theological thought.

Most Europeans worked off of the Septuagint for their translations, not the original Hebrew. I'm not saying that was smart of them, just that that's probably why it wasn't studied too much. I don't even think most Jews knew how to speak Hebrew at the time, there probably simply weren't enough people around to learn it from

>By 122 BC,Gaius Gracchusfounded a short-livedcolony, calledColonia Iunonia, after the Latin name for the Punic goddessTanit,Iuno Caelestis. The purpose was to obtain arable lands for impoverished farmers. TheSenateabolished the colony some time later, to undermine Gracchus' power.
Aaaaah fucking Romabs the Gracchi were too gud for you fucks

I was thinking that, you have writting records of carthago, try the fucking olmecs from 1200bc in an acid tropical region that destroys skeletal remains

Rome said no. Carthage also tried literally everything to avoid war. They sent a surrender delegation before war was even declared. The Roman Senate demanded that they submit unconditionally, which they did.

The first thing they asked was that every noble family send a child as a hostage, who would be killed if they broke faith. The Carthaginians rumbled but complied.

The next demand was that the Carthaginians supply the Roman army with grain. This they found easier to do.

The third demand was that the Carthaginians hand over all their weapons and armor. There was much debate, but the city gave in and handed over 200,000 sets of fighting gear.

The fourth and final demand was that Carthage be destroyed. Finally, the Carthaginians realized they had been tricked, and decided to fight to the last man, with nothing more than chamber pots and cooking knives. The Romans began by murdering the children, they then besieged the city by land and sea for three years, killing all who resisted and enslaving any survivors. The destruction was total, the Roman tactic was to burn out the city, block by block, house by house. Finally a surrender was negotiated and the remnants laid down their arms. The Carthaginian women and children had taken refuge in a fortified building, to be guarded by captured Roman soldiers, in whose hands the Carthaginians felt they would be safe. Unfortunately the Romans had a policy of crucifying captured soldiers as deserters. The doomed Roman guards set the building on fire, and the women and children all burned alive.

>The fourth and final demand was that Carthage be destroyed.
Kek. Sneaky fucks, I'm starting to wonder who the real Semites were, the Carthaginians or the Romans.

i think Romans were convinced Carthaginians giving in was some kind of trick and that the surprise attack would come any second now

Carthage might have been saved if they had put up resistance from the beginning, ironically

Yes, there's still a lot of areas that are very understudied. At the same time, stuff gets looted and destroyed there at a super alaraming rate, and for anything earlier then like 1000-1519 that's not in the Maya region, there's basically zero actual written/recorded evidence and probably never will be, at least with carthage you have accounts from adjacent political states and the writings of other people about them

>tfw lebanese maronite, so i know aramaic and can read and understand 70% of phoenician

feels good.

Made a sweet sweet ass port.

Only like 350,000 out of many Carthaginians perished. It's not like the Romans could genocide them completely (in the sense of slaughtering them). Even the slaughter of Carthage was pretty exhausting (and meaningless, if you ask me).

Being a Carthaboo is a choice and there is no reason to force yourself to gush over a extinct language, that is just retarded, no reason to feel sorry

Most Punics lived in Carthage

I feel für dich, user.

Carthage greatest contribution to the modern world.

>booing over a civilization so jewish even the jews hate them, whos queen was fucked and forgotten by a chad Trojan, and whos lasting legacy is killing kids, marching eliphants over a snowy hill before having to fuck off all the way back to Africa, and being so definitively btfo by Romans that they made the soil salty.
user how can we possibly feel bad for you?

Romans are not descendants of Trojans no matter how much they spouted that myth, and when Carthage was founded Rome didn't even exist

yo pussy still sore Dido?

I think it's the best example of why appeasement doesn't work. Considering this story comes from Roman sources, we'd have to expect that the true story was far worse.

>boo boo boo

Are you five

Lol, that paper is weak, actually read it. All archaeological evidence shows that around 90% of the remains infants that died before or during birth.

Source. The Phoenicians and the West by Marie Aubet.

>Tried to be Rome
How?

The phoenicians in general contrivuted heavily to the advancement of the Mediterranean. Spreading the alhpabet, trade networks, etc. Carthage had an extremely well developed agricultural system that Rome adopted. It's a real shame their library was destroyed, they kept a lot of information secret too like their explorations (Hanno and Himilco are just the two explorers we know about from Carthage and the phoenicians were the first to circumnavigate africa)

They asked for Rome's assistance. Rome broke every treaty they could. They broke their agrrement and started the first Punic War by aiding Campanian mercenaries in Sicily, the broke that wars treaty by taking Sardinia and telling Carthage they couldn't interfere with Rome's ally harassing Carthages allies below the Ebro, and then didn't support them when Numidia attacked.

The Romans were always backstabbers throughout their history

well done, op 10/10

>There is zero evidence Ancient Carthaginians did that
user I...

He is right though, the so called tophets contained a lot of unborn babies, what kind of sacrifice is that?

I admire ROMANS because they archieved inmortality with their empire

also muh ancesters

they had dedicatories as offerings for the gods

>itt: people think that romans = italians

Modern Italians aren't Romams and ancient Italians were conquered by Romans.

after the Socii wars Romans and the rest of the Italians blended together

it's not like Caracalla's edict where everyone got citizenship but it stopped mattering, the Italian and Roman culture fused quickly.

Most ancient societies killed infant children user. Carthage just ritualized it as part of their religion to deal with their guilt.

My point being it is egregious to call Romans 'Italian' as both the modern and the ancient culture of 'Italians' are seperate entities. Even today what is considered an Italian is just a hosge podge of cultures smashed together with a Frankenstein language. The narcissism of small differences runs deep in Italy, the vitriolic south-north divide is cause for muc trouble.

>he doesnt know that romans are a mix of greek and italic tribes

sounds much more reasonable. do you have a source for that though?

Italic =/= Italian

They thought apes were humans and got freaked out and skinned a few of them.

WE

WE

Phoenicans already circumnavigated Africa at the behest of a one of the Persian kangs in 400 bc according to herodotus. There was even the anecdote that the sun rose in a different part of the sky after a certain point in the trip. Evidence that they at least made it past the equator

It was an egyptian pharoah who hired them.

And not to mention the year was around 600bc, the reign of Necho II. Herodotus was dead by 400 bc.

feels good being a romanfag

>”x”-boo

That should be a fucking movie.