Oh shit, an entire army has been encircled at Stalingrad! Should we organize a breakthrough out of the encirclement...

...

m.youtube.com/watch?v=dqYGEzQWygM

The "genius" Manstein was in charge of the relief, that went well

>yuropoors and britsharias trying to understand the concept of air supply

Besides, how many logistics guys had the mongols running from their camp base in Mongolia to the Ukraine? Right, that's what I guessed. That German Army should have fought their way forward and take ammo and supplies from the ruskis as well.

>requests Paulus to break out and meet him half away
>Hitler completely forbids it

>Russians use the same ammunition as Germans

Brainlet strikes again
The Soviets had a much shorter supply chain than Germany, and IIRC they actually used trucks instead of fucking horses
>air supply
With what? The fucking Luftwaffe?
Mutt pls go

Besides the PPSH using basically the same round as a C-96 German and Russian ammo wasn't interchangeable

Yeah, I forgot using captured enemy weapons is against yuropoor regulations

Do you think Americans in Korea regularly used AK's or something?

>PPSH using basically the same round as a C-96
>C-96 was common weapon in WW2

Those few dozen mosins you scavenge will surely make all the difference
You think this is some Battlefield where you can hop into an enemy tank and use it against them?

>What is the MP717(r) which used .30 automatic Mauser in lieu of 7.62x25 Tokarev
Fucking idiot

Some experimental piece of shit that was barely used

It's literally a fucking PPSH with a German designation number you absolute dumb cunt

How many were captured and used by the Germans?
How did they get the ammo for it?
Do you think the Soviets just gave them the guns?

Also
>firearms win wars!

Are you fucking retarded? the ppsh was widespread among German forces, to such an extent they made a 9mm conversion package for it, Germany started reproudcing the .30 Automatic Mauser purely to supply the ppsh's they captured and didn't bother to convert. Kill yourself

I'll translate your post
>I'M A HUGE RETARDED WEHRABOO FAGGOT PLS RAPE MY FACE

are you realy that retarded to think that ".30 Mauser" (or 7.63×25 Mauser in civilised units) was common type of ammo?

What the fuck are you going on about wehraboos for? I'd think it quite the opposite when I'm saying they're using fucking Soviet SMG's instead of MUH SUPERIOR KAR-98S
Common enough to be put back into production

How the fuck were they going to convert their fucking guns in the middle of a fucking encirclement, with no supplies or support of note?
You still haven't explained how would they keep fighting WHILE encircled and completely cut off?

you are a Hunnic official that is responsible for ammunition production, half of your army has constant ammo shortages, are you going to produce 7.92×57mm Mauser and 9x19mm Parabellum for your main rifle + MGs and main smg, or some random round that can be fired from several thousands of captured weapons?

I'm not saying they could you total fucking idiot, I said the only round that Soviet and German arms had in common was a the .30 Mauser
FN produced the .30 Mauser rounds so it didn't really fucking matter

>31 posts
>8 posters

What are you even arguing about anyway, you got BTFO and exposed as a total brainlet so you try to shift the conversation to an inane topic about different calibers just so you can win your stupid argument?
Pretty sad imo

Didnt Mannstein think that would be the best action?

I'm not arguing about fucking anything, some autistic cunt starting sperging out about how the .30 mauser wasn't used in a ppsh after I said only the tokarev and .30 mauser were the only similar rounds used by both sides. Not my fault you're an autistic faggot

So this:
Is not you?

Fuck no

Then if you want I can start a thread on /k/ about ppsh variants and differences between ammo in ww2 if you want

Fuck I can't write today

The PPSH was a pretty widespread weapon among Soviet forces, the Germans captured a lot of them when fighting the Soviets, it was an efficient weapon with high rates of fire and a large magazine, even if you neverreceived an officialy modified version of it you would have been able to supply yourself with enough ammunition for it, simply by taking magazines from dead Russian soldiers.

German special units were good at using enemy weapons, like the Pioneers, Waffen-SS etc., the Germans already did such things during WW1 with the Sturmtruppen and they had already adapted Austrian,Czechoslovakian and partially also captured French,British,Dutch and Belgian equipment into their arsenal when they attacked the Soviet Union, engineers easily can find out how foreign weapons work.

If you are able to adapt your enemies equipment quickly and en masse, using it against him, that's fine, it will help operationally and to certain degrees in strategical and logistical aspects, everything other than that is tactical and thus not important for wars.

But this is not important, a breakthrough out of Stalingrad would have been possible, had the Germans assembled some of their elite units, concentrated their air-force on Stalingrad in order to gain temporary air-superiority and then communicated with the encircled 6th army and simply attacked the Red Army forces lying between them, then quickly retreat multiple kilometres, reorganize, counterattack and secure the frontline, before the units east of Stalingrad are able to aid and after the troops on the Caucasian front have retreated.
The latter would then be used as a reserve, winter-equipment should be delivered as quickly as possible and an effective defense should have been improvised, based on the experiences made during the winter of 1941/42 at Moscow.

>engineers easily can find out how foreign weapons work.
maybe it has something to do with the fact that like half of those captured weapons were almost identical with german ones

Woulda shoulda coulda
The Germans were completely surrounded, with no supplies, minimal air support and several hundred thousand russkies in every direction
>Should be delivered as quickly as possible
Problem is that German supply lines were stretched as they were, not to mention slow and inefficient
If they broke out all the Soviets had to do is attack and encircle them again, whey weren't about to just sit around

>US forces got encircled all the time in NK by the chinese and they still pulled through and rekt thousands of chinks in the process.
The Chinese army was literally WW1-tier.

7/10

>woulda shoulda coulda
Well I am assuming, there is nothing else to say.
>The Germans were completely surrounded, with no supplies, minimal air support and several hundred thousand russkies in every direction
Oh you don't say! Of course this was a shitty situation, but the essence of winning conflicts is to handle such with professionality and execute an operation, appropriate for changing it into ones own favour or to just stop units from taking critical casualties and suffering. At least you haver to try to deal with it, as a commander.

I think I need to explain my idea.

All available fighters and bombers should be used to cover the Operation to liberate the 6th Army, as long as possible.
The 6th Army would use the tactic that Panzergrenadier units would use to break out of an encirclement, the very good battle-hardened troops that were positioned near Moscow, should be ordered to aid the offensive, also some Panzer and Waffen-SS units would be used for this operation, as main attack force.
This starts in the early winter-months of 1943, when the units were just encircled but yet had not suffered much from minimal breakthrough attempts,Hitler's order and Goerings air-supply-idiocy.
The Germans then should gtfo after defeating the units between Stalingrad and the frontline. The Caucasian troops would follow them and shorten the front-length.

They would fall back and thus be easier to supply with winter-equipment, after regrouping a counterattack should be initiated and take the most defedable position possible, maybe along the Don and Donez in East-ern Ukraine.

Of course the Soviets were not about to stay calm, but the plan is to rapidly retreat leaving everything behind that cannot be transported(except for the wounded), the Russians at the Stalingrad,Don and Caucasus fronts would be either tactically defeated,delayed or over 100km away from the front after the retreat of the Germans, who would then be concentrated and entrenched.

You need to deassemble, reassemble, test and study the mechanisms of a weapon in order to understand it, this is not rocket-science and can be done in a short time if experts do it.

Yes those weapons were similiar, the PPSH has influences from the MP18, Carbines basically all rely on the same idea and build-up and they all can be completely disassembled in 15 minutes if you're a normal weapons engineer.
And this description is inaccurate because you would actually have fairly less problems.

>The 6th Army would use the tactic that Panzergrenadier units would use to break out of an encirclement
its quite hard to use tactic that requires tanks, AFV and good terrain when you have no tanks, no afvs, no fuel, your soldiers are freezing, dont have any ammo and you are surrounded in the fucking plains.
>the very good battle-hardened troops that were positioned near Moscow, should be ordered to aid the offensive
yeah, letting Soviets execute another offensive at moscow would be great
>also some Panzer and Waffen-SS units would be used for this operation, as main attack force.
Do you know that you cant just put dozens of thousands of soldiers and hundreds of tanks out of the your pocket?

The Panzergrenadier-tactic would not mostly be applied with tanks and vehicles, obviously, but with infantry, the vehicles would either be mobilised to make for a second line or to evacuate the wounded, a major use of them is impossible and the rest would be replaced by infantry, sounds like I am puling this out of my ass now, but the idea is to simply apply the tactical principle for infantry and the remaining mechanized forces. All available artillery is then used in a final effort, also this case requires temporary air-superiority, as said.

>another offensive at moscow
Do you think they would have done that?
They were busy with Stalingrad and Leningrad as well, even the Russians can't afford to fight on all sectors simoultaneously. It's not like all units would be pulled away from there, only those who would be able to arrive in time and pose a threat to the Red Army, in return some units that would only have been capable of defensive operations could be transported to the Moscow-front.

>you can't just put dozens of thousands of soldiers and hundreds of tanks out of the your pocket
No, but I can use nearby units that are operational and preferbly supply them with heavy weapons and use the forces wisely.
Luck is always necessary for such offensives.

>Do you think they would have done that?
Not him, but Operation Mars was literally simultaneous with the closing of the pocket created by Uranus.. It's not "Would they have done that". They were already doing it.

The only thing that should have been done was saving the troops at Stalingrad, it was possible, the troops of Paulus made some advances and nearly reached the HKL, but Paulus did not put an emphasis on using the last of his forces to save them from painful death and dishonourable captivity, he just ignored his troops moral-boost and kept them dying.
As I see it, the OKW should anyways have adopted modern mobile warfare, started to learn from it's mistakes, used total mobilization for the industrial production, reformed the Wehrmacht, introduced a new recruiting system, prepared defenses for Germany, recruited some SS-men in Ukraine and the Baltics, killed as many People as possible in Leningrad and bomb it to the ground, ask the Finns to capture Murmansk and made a massive retreat from the Don and Neva back to East Prussia and Silesia, making Königsberg into the next Stalingrad and defeat the Russians at the Memel with all Forces avalable and only producing cheap medium tanks that are able to destroy the T-34.

Operation Mars was a Soviet offensive user, not a German one.

> used total mobilization for the industrial production,
They had been doing this for a while. Speer's commentary about how they were only halfassing the production line is bullshit.

> introduced a new recruiting system,
With what manpower? Before the war against the USSR started Germany was already facing a choice between conscription and keeping people around for production. How does a "new recruiting system" help this?

>recruited some SS-men in Ukraine and the Baltics,
Too bad that you need expropriative food policies to keep things going back home from points East. And if you steal all the food, the locals tend to hate you.

>killed as many People as possible in Leningrad and bomb it to the ground
Do you have any fucking idea how hard it is to "bomb a city to the ground" with WW2 tech? The British tried it with literally millions of tons of bombs on Germany, and that didn't obliterate cities. The Luftwaffe doesn't have a tenth of that carrying capacity.

> ask the Finns to capture Murmansk
With what? Murmansk is some 140 km from Petsamo, the nearest "city" the Finns have, and it's not unguarded. But I'm sure you'll come up with a way to supply a corps or two through all that trackless wilderness.

>and made a massive retreat from the Don and Neva back to East Prussia and Silesia
So, give up literally everything you've taken in the USSR and abandon your now necessary food production zones?

> making Königsberg into the next Stalingrad and defeat the Russians at the Memel with all Forces avalable and only producing cheap medium tanks that are able to destroy the T-34.
Say the Soviets act with a modicum of intelligence and pour into Romania instead, breaking your main oil production center. Then you won't have the fuel for your "cheap medium tanks" (which by the way, are inferior to the T-34)

This "plan" is terrible.

They had air superiority, they just couldn't do anything with it

You clearly haven't read anything about Stalingrad. This battle was a close combat meat grinder, the Soviets would have won this battle anyway.

>brainlet wojak 8585
Can you upload to a MEGA? I want more.

>sends condoms
AIDS and other venereal diseases weren't a huge issue back then, why would they even need condoms? I doubt anyone would give a fuck if they knocked up some whore they'll never see again after the war.

Hitler approved a breakout later in the operation, Paulus didn't attempt one because the Sixth was in no position to beat a well supported and logistically sound Soviet encirclement and he was under the impression they would be resupplied. They weren't.

deepbattleoperations>schwerpunkt

> battle of chosin resvoir means encirclements are a meme
As soon as the marines where surrounded they fought a huge battle to break out of encirclement and retreat,
. What your suggesting is that they should have made no effort to break out of encircle ment and just sit there cause “ wheel just use captutre pd chinese supplies lmao”

>condoms
Source?

>mongols had the same supply needs as a the whermact,
Yeah lemme just get some spare parts for my panzer by threatening peasants

Syphillis

Why would you want to give up the manganese deposits in Ukraine that made up 120% of German consumption in 1942?