Low bar blues

it's really not trained "a lot less" at all, lowbar allows for heavier loading because it's mechanically more efficient not because it shifts emphasis to some different muscle group

strongerbyscience.com/high-bar-and-low-bar-squatting-2-0/

he'll still be getting plenty of glute and spinal erector work from highbar, and he can add in RDLs/SLDLs or other hip hinge work to aid his deadlift

OP post a vid of a heavy set of 5 on the SS coaches section of the SS forum. They'll tell you what you're doing wrong and offer a potential solution.

they'll just tell him to drink milk

I've read that study. Greg is a really thorough guy and all, but I don't agree here.

Low bar squat as taught by Rip is basically a hip hinge bellow parallel with small amount of knee travel.
High bar squats performed by Olympic lifters are, on the other hand, more of a front squat with slightly inclined torso.

Eventually, all it boils down to is that knee travel is the determining factor when it comes to quad involvement in the movement and while you can low bar squat with maximized dorsiflexion, it's not a proper squat according to the book.

Also, , I think you should try to work extensively on your mobility before you move on to modifying the program.
Using straps might work as a temporary band aid, too.

>High bar squats are more of a front squat with a slightly inclined torso
Bullshit. The difference in moment arm between a low bar and high bar squat is much smaller than the difference in moment between a front squat and a high bar squat. A front squat has almost two times as much moment arm as a high bar squat. Pic related, clockwise from top left: front squat, high bar squat, hip dominant low bar, average low bar.

>I think you should try to work extensively on your mobility before you move on to modifying the program.
Mobility work is a great idea and I'm already doing that. What I get from the SS camp is "force low bar at all costs." Why? If the goal is to get stronger through an exercise and not to simply move the most weight possible (quoting Rip), and if squatting high bar is better than not squatting at all (again quoting Rip), then why is there this do or die attitude about low bar squatting, especially for somebody work aesthetics-oriented goals post-SS? I'm pretty happy with SS overall, but that's easily the biggest contradiction I've seen in the book. He spends the entire squat chapter saying you have to deal with discomfort because the most important thing is putting up the most weight possible, then he spends the entire bench and press chapters saying not to get hung up on the numbers because the goal isn't to lift the most weight possible but to get stronger through lifting. Well which is it? His attitude towards pressing movements undermines his attitude toward squatting and nobody can explain why.

i was going to respond but
already covered anything i was going to say pretty thoroughly

anecdotally I ran SS (back in 2011) with highbar instead of lowbar and it worked great, i think it works even better to have a lighter but longer ROM movement like highbar (that still lends itself well to incremental loading and progressive overload) as the squat variant and get your low back and glute beating from deadlifts, it definitely didn't hold my deadlift back on the program at all

it's just not something that's worth worrying about, just get in the gym and squat in whatever style is comfortable and doesn't hurt you

No, Rip would tell him moar milk. The SS coaches are much less retarded and offer better advice. You can learn a lot just reading their form checks.

Don't listen to people who know everything and everything else is wrong in their mind. Intelligent people are doubtful about their ideas and open to innovation and changes. Whenever I see the man talk he has this arrogant grumpy look and everyone's cumming at his mere presence dude's a narcissist.

I could only post more anecdotal shit to support what I was trying to imply and I still stand behind what I've said. The moment arm is not sole determining factor, but ok.
However,

I agree with the second part of your post. To me the only reason for trying to stick with low bar in ss is because of undoubtedly large correlation between squat and deadlift training, regardless of styles. And rip managed to pin point the 'sweet spot' ratio of lower body training to drive novice's numbers up in an effective manner. And yes, it seems to me that he often contradicts himself too, and I completely disagree with him when it comes to oly lifting and his dogmatic stance on high bar squats.

That being said, I do a vast majority of my training high bar and I don't really think that low bar should be used as a main squat variation later on - be it for athletes or bodybuilders.

I got to 315 3x5 on SS with low bar, id say its worth trying to stick with it because it will increase your deadlift by a ton. Im doing highbar (with a pause, which people dont do cause they want a huge stretch reflex amd think they have a good highbar squat) and let me tell you, the 315 for a single rep with a highbar pause is 10 times harder than lowbar squat. Lowbar is better because it recruits more muscles, thus move more weight. When you get under the bar try pulling the bar apart and im sure your arm pain will go away, dont hive up just yet.

Both of those grips in that pic are shit. Use a false grip, widen it up a bit and make sure literally none of the weight of the bar is on your wrist. Basically your wrist should be just resting on top of the bar. If you do this there is no way its going to hurt your arms and elbows.

I don't think it really matters if you do high bar or low bar, but have you at least tried a thumbless grip? Most people experience at least a bit of uncomfort if they're not using thumbless.

Front squat will force proper form.
It will develop thoracic mobility, core strength, and high volume lowweight warm ups can be used to dynamically stretch to get an overall deeper squat.
As you find front squat getting easier, you will then find all forms of back squat get easier.

Also get lifting shoes.

Rip is dogmatic and ignorant. He thinks foam rolling and physiotherapy are a fraud. Also GOMAD

Yes. I'm certain the issue is with weight being applied to my palms and thus my elbows, but that is why I think low bar is a poor choice for me. Pic related, sorry for rotation. With my shoulders contracted and dropped and my elbows driving back (as Rip instructs), the meat of my palm is still situated above the top of my shoulders and well above the spine of the scapula. If I drive the elbows further up, my palm rests in line with my chest, ahead of my anterior delts. I can force my palms back via the bar, but that means the bar is applying force to my palms to maintain position and, so, weight is transferring to the elbows. This is why I've been working on mobility for over a month, but I am growing skeptical that I could get flexible enough to where my anthropometry can be overcome sufficiently to low bar squat comfortably. I could much more easily accommodate a high bar placement at my mobility and continue working out. Instead, I'm taking a week off from the gym to recover from tendinitis. I can't pick up my kid anymore without discomfort, and that matters more to me than running a philosophically pure SS routine.

Nothing wrong with gomad.

I have your fix, you just need to wrap your thumbs around the bar.
If you look at people with long forearms like Jordan Feigenbaum or Austin Baraki (SS coaches and powerlifters) they both use a thumb around grip, they explained why on the SS boards a while ago, because the thumbless grip gave them elbow pain.
I don't know in detail why that happens, something about long forearms, but the complete explanation is somewhere on the SS boards, go search for it.

You don't have to have your forearms perpendicular to the bar like that, you can flare them out at more of an angle. If you do that your palms won't be under the bar. The only real reason rip recommends a narrow grip is it makes it easier to create a shelf on your back when you are first learning the lift. But if you are already familiar with it and know where the bar goes and how to keep it in place you can vary up your grip. Pic related is what I mean. Notice how his wrists are on top of the bar and not under.

Sure thing. I have experimented with a wider grip and the butt of my palm is what nestles into the bar, like in your pic, but in order to accomplish that I have to use the bar to crank my arms back, even with a wider grip, at which point there's no way to stop force transferring to the elbows. My arms can't "rest" on the bar. They get wedged into place, due to the low placement of the bar.

I'm having the same issue RIGHT NOW, but not as extreme, and I'm wondering whether to DROP lowbar squats altogether. For the time being, I'll stick to them, because 1 week of rest and the use of schiek wrist wraps had been A HUGE RELIEF. Candito made a good video about pain regarding lowbar squats.
If it won't get better with wraps, JUST FUCK IT. There's no need to be in PAIN just to have a little bit of an advantage in milking your beginner gains.

I'm hoping at this point that I haven't fucked things up severely. I'm reading about golfer's elbow and, depending on whether the cause of symptoms is inflammation or degradation of the collagen in your tendon, recovery can take upwards of 6 months. I'm praying that's not the case with me. I want to be back in the gym in a week.

Thx Mark

rippletits hates high bar because he's too fucking fat and old to be able to do it anymore LOL

Just squat however is comfortable for you you fucking faggot. Why would you even make a thread?

Because I was reluctant to break from Rippetoe's prescription on my own. Other people here have run the program and other people squat without it. I wanted feedback.

>could only post anecdotal shit
>still stand behind what I said

This is not an argument, and you know that.

brb getting fat as fuck

Not quoting because whatever not going back through.

I had this and fixed it.

1. Make sure your upper back is tight as fuck. Retract scapula tight and lock into the bar.
2. You are putting weight on your wrists but you know this. Minimize that.
3. The real problem is you are pulling the bar down into your back when you push out a heavy squat. Stop pulling it into your back, get your arms out of it, it's a squat.
4. The other thing you need is forearm work. Get light dumbells and slow and controlled do wrist curls both ways and do rotations. Look on Google it's like basic firearm work. Keep the weight light-ish and do like 3 sets of 10 for each motion every workout. Will fix all elbow ituses (I had both).

Short version
Stop pulling the bar down when you squat up
Build forearm strength with simple movements

Thanks. Trying those now at home. Taking a break from squats may work even better if I stop do some forearm intensive work, like deadlift, chin ups, and curls. Bro out for health and wellness.

Do things the way that are best for you. Adhering to an excessively prescriptivist mentality is clearly not working for you, and there's nothing stopping you from squatting high bar if you are confident that it's going to be more comfortable and just as productive.
If doing highbar is less productive for your deadlift, to some extra deadlift volume. 1x5 is barely anything, and every time I finished a single set of deadlifts and called it done there, I felt like I was leaving effort on the table. After a while, I started doing two or three triples with my last warmup set and felt like I was getting a lot more out of my deadlift.

Lift in the way that gets you results and doesn't injure you. Don't worry about whether or not you're following the dogma of a retired, mediocre powerlifter.

I was in the same position after my first month of ss, i did my first session of highbar on monday without changing anything else and it was awesome. No elbow or shoulder pain whatsoever. Never going back to lowbar.

That's encouraging. How long did it take for your elbow pain to go away. Like I said, mine is waking me up at night and constant throughout the day and I'm getting paranoid about how long it will take to heal.

>and if you're in pain, toughen up.
Keep on going, ignore the pain, are the words, of a man insane.
_
Soreness, fatigue, stiffness can be worked with or through, but pain means you're injured and need to heal. Training on pain means more injury means more pain.
"Lol htfu" is what you hear from idiots with horrifying snapped shit in their future.

Just wear a turtleneck to squat, nobody, including your legs, will be able to tell the difference

Does low bar affect ur knees less than high bar?
I've been always doing high bar but my left knee bothers me when i do

It will take about 2 weeks if you do forearm work and stop pulling down on the bar during your squats

If you go below parallel or not is the big thing. Once you go below parallel, you are applying even force on top and below your knees via the quads and hamstrings. If you squat above parallel, you are putting more force on the top of your knee via the quads, which disproportionately loads the knee and can cause injury over time. This is discussed in detail in SS.

Read the SL guide. Don't hold the bar, but just keep it in place, and squeeze your shoulders so the bar is resting on your lats and delts.

DESU I find the stronglifts guide better for explaining the important parts of form.

Bar position shouldn't affect your lower body TOO much. Odds are that knee pain is due more to improper Squat form, rather than the bar position. Have someone record you squatting.

>so the bar is resting on your lats
So this... is the depth of low bar squats... whoa

just do high bar instead, you'll be fine.