Can Modern Atheism be traced back to Protestantism?

Can Modern Atheism be traced back to Protestantism?

Both Nick Land and Moldbug seem to make the claim that the overarching secular ideology is based in Protestantism. Moldbug makes this claim with his idea of cryptocalvinism atavisionary.com/cathedral/the-cathedral-compilation-page/ . Land has talked about it variously (see below twitter cap) and in touches on it in atomization article jacobitemag.com/2017/06/06/atomization/ where he somewhat lays the blame for ideological shattering at the feet of Martin Luther.

Protestantism certainly had a large hand to play in liberalism, American and French Revolutions which lead to an increase in social freedoms of the populations. The Reformation is often mentioned as leading to the Enlightenment which definitely aided in the secularization of society which would eventually lead to a rise in atheism.

Protestant work ethic affecting global capitalism which eventually aided in western cultural globalization of the sexual revolution and consumerism could be traced back to america and its dominantly protestant culture.

A few issues that I find:
-There have been atheists in western civilization going back to the greeks.
-Europe is largely catholic and is more atheistic that america.
-America has a reputation for being hyper religious and this is where protestantism is dominant.

Other urls found in this thread:

usreligion.blogspot.com/2013/11/karl-marx-as-radical-protestant-infidel.html?m=1
youtube.com/watch?v=dGizKIcUxqY
twitter.com/AnonBabble

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Since the Veeky Forums thread got deleted:

When the Anglo-American meme of cryptocalvinism reaches over civilizations, it wreaks worse havoc. This is how the French Revolution and every Communist revolution came to be such violent fanatical travesties. (And just to recap, communism IS another intellectual descendant of cryptocalvinism.)

Moldbug likened all of this to the upas tree, whose toxin kills the flora around it before killing the upas itself.

>Calvinism
>foreign to France
Calvin was French and Moldbug is a kike loser.

I guess the mods are tired of Land threads.

It's an interesting perspective, but how do we get around the fact that catholicism seems to be the heart of secularization:

-Came up with the big bang
-Enlightement was dominant in italian and french countries which are both catholic.
-modern atheistic intellectualism is largely french (existentialism and postmodernism) which is dominantly catholic

Plus, america, the heart of protestantism, is negligibly atheistic.

Speaking of jews, jewishness could be a factor in secularization.
Both freud and marx were jewish and protestantism is often connected to ideas of judaism as opposed to the pagan catholic church.

Anglo-American secularization goes at least as far back as deism.

America's religious practice today is a degraded shadow of its former self. Only the Amish have really preserved their authentic religious folkways.

Yes.
>“In the face of this universal crisis there emerged a growing conviction, particularly among the Puritans, that Christian civilization was approaching its final age. Millennial eschatology had widespread repercussions, and the search for a mode of life appropriate to the situation inevitably affected attitudes towards the natural world. The unprecedented upheavals of the period were seen, not as a sign of a further fall from grace, but as a prelude to the final judgment and rule of the saints. Puritan theologians were thus able to draw comfort from the omens; parliamentarians projected their policies as having divine sanction and their military forces assumed the character of Christ’s army in a holy war. The sciences were employed to add precision to the millennial outline drawn up by theologians; conversely, millennial ideas furnished the natural philosopher with new premises and goals. It seemed that the fateful intellectual decline, which had begun with the Fall of Adam, might at last be reversed. Some indications of restitution had already occurred, following the Reformation, but to all appearances the tide of history now flowed ever faster and the natural philosopher might dare to look forward to an age of unprecedented achievement. The Puritan Revolution was therefore seen as a period of promise, when God would allow science to become the means to bring about a new paradise on earth. Science accordingly assumed considerable significance in the puritan programme and the puritan intellectuals became committed to a dedicated attempt to procure the return of man’s dominion over nature.” (Webster, Great Instauration, xvi)

Straight out of HW i'm doing right now, actually.

nah. you need to look at Francis Bacon's experimental philosophy, Newton, the Dutch, the growth of valuing the STEM fields in Protestant countries during the Reformation and immediately after.

The French gave us Descartes. That's about it as far "catholic nations" contribution to atheism is concerned . Galileo was a devote Catholic.

>nah.
>who is copernicus
>who is giordano bruno

>The French gave us Descartes
>who is pierre gassendi
>who is voltaire
>who is montesquieu
>who is diderot
>d'alembert

>Francis Bacon's experimental philosophy
Bacon was a hack and his influence grossly exaggerated
>Newton
Only popularized by voltaire in the 18th century in europe.
>the Dutch
vague

>the growth of valuing the STEM fields in Protestant countries during the Reformation
the catholic powers did too. France had a royal scientific society, of which montesquieu took part in his local branch in bourdeaux. So did the Germans. Italians made contributions to germ theory in the 17th century.

It’s acutally lies in Christianity - which marked the first total rejection of traditional faith and set in motion the same skepticism that would eventually consume it and produce things like Islam.

Bump

I’ve been thinking about this through the night, maybe some of you others can give some critique.

What seems to be the most operant idea here is American Protestantism and Modernity, which has its roots in Protestantism in general.

Luther breaking off from the hierarchy of Catholicism set about the shattering of religious unification in the West. This is a pretty straight forward step to the constant splintering of Protestant sects. The idea in relation to Modern Atheism is this lead to the individualism that allowed Atheism to flourish.

Protestantisms part to play in liberalism is accepted generally; I don’t know enough to argue this point but it seems to go without saying. Freemasonry is ultimately protestant despite its claims otherwise which had a hand in both French and American revolutions, but I Don't know if this is blown out of proportion by conspiracy theorists.

Protestantism leading to the enlightenment is also generally accepted, though I don’t know how this could be argued effectively. There were catholic scientists who aided in the enlightenment as well, as well as it being a European movement means it was largely catholic.

One idea is the fathers of Modernity were Protestant/Jewish (Protestants often claim they are closer to Judaism than the Pagan Catholic Church):
-Freud was jewish
-Marx was jewish but his father converted to Protestantism
-Nietzsche’s father was protestant

Kierkegard as the father of existentialism, highlighting protestants focus on the individual.
Heidegger was protestant as well.

American Protestantism and the cultural hegemony of western media (which is dominated by Protestants and Jews) has pushed the image of day to day life, which is outside the structures of catholic tradition is a sort of secular protestantism.
-All the classic sitcoms basically show a protestant family living according to those cultural styles. (a sanitized protestantism devoid of the supernatural).

No not really

>copernicus
Didn't actually do anything to damage the Roman Catholic Order.
>18th century humanist
Trashed. Atheism has it's origins in the 15th and 16th centuries. Overwhelmingly in Protestant nations. You are off to list people like Voltaire.

>Atheism has it's origins in the 15th and 16th centuries. Overwhelmingly in Protestant nations.

Do you have any sources or further information to back this up?

>-There have been atheists in western civilization going back to the greeks.
Very, very, few. It mostly started in the 19th century, a little bit in the 18th.

What would you say is the major source for the rise in atheism?
Do you agree it could be tied back to the Protestant Reformation?
Could it be tied to American Protestantism?

Development of chemistry as a purely materialistic pursuit occurred largely in Protestant German States circa 1500s. (Moran's Distilling Alchemy). Development of experimental science as a means to learn of the world = developed largely in in post English Reformation England. The infusion of Christianity with atheistic themes = Puritan Revolution era England.

>There have been atheists in western civilization going back to the greeks.
Not really with any power. Atheism was a capital offense in Ancient Greece punishable by death. Likewise in Rome. Historiography which speaks of "secular" Greek and Roman government is misleading. Government was inherently spiritual and tied to the imperial cults. The first secular state is America in the 1700s.
>Europe is largely catholic and is more atheistic that america.
Well no. Religion matters to people more in the Catholic European nations than in the Protestant European nations.
>-America has a reputation for being hyper religious
Yeah but it's meme religiosity. Even proddie fundamentalist aren't care more about the constitution than God.
>and this is where protestantism is dominant.
see pic related.

>Well no. Religion matters to people more in the Catholic European nations than in the Protestant European nations.

This could be something. It's not completely cut and dry. France and Ch.Republic are mostly Catholic and are the most atheist countries in Europe. They are somewhat outliers. Sweden, Netherlands, Norway, Estonia, Germany are the next most atheistic and have sizeable or dominant protestant communities. Estonia is mostly orthodox, but was historically Lutheran. I will look into this further. Thank you.

>Yeah but it's meme religiosity. Even proddie fundamentalist aren't care more about the constitution than God.

But they definitely believe it. My issue with making this protestant heredity to atheism work is that the most protestant nation is fanatically religious. They may be constitutiinalists, but they believe God inspired the founding of america.

Evangelicals think the bible is infallible too.

>Not really with any power. Atheism was a capital offense in Ancient Greece punishable by death.

Yeah, no question. It's more that, how can Protestantism be the father of modern atheism if atheism has always been around.

I guess I'm leaning toward Protestantism leading to modern individualist atheism as a cultural movement helped by western media and capitalism.

The problem with this too is that most atheists lean leftists, and leftists are usually for government intervention and populism, which is a weakness to the Luther breaking from Catholicism = protestant individualist athesim.

>It's more that, how can Protestantism be the father of modern atheism if atheism has always been around.
You need to consider that definition of atheism changed from not considering X Deity worthy of veneration to not believing in X deity at all. Many atheist of antiquity believed (or were accused of) the former. One of charges against Christians was that they were atheist because they refused to worship the Roman Gods. Socrates likewise was accused of atheism despite being driven by God (in his own words) and obviously living a pious lifestyle . Atheism in the "God isn't real" sense was extremely fringe.

Meanwhile starting in the Early Modern Era you had the elevation of materialistic science which is for all intents and purposes the origin of the quasi-religious modern atheism. This took place within the Protestant Zeitgeist.

I think you're right about this aspect. Protestantism as venerators of natural sciences created the modern materialist ideology essentially. Modern atheists almost always fall back on a sort of science based agnosticism. The entirety of their thinking is natural sciences and heftily Darwin who was a Protestant as well (also his parents were abolitionists).

ONE ISSUE: (it's always america) How can protestant america be this exporter of decadence, science, and atheism when the demographic is massivley evangelical and science deniers?

Is it just that the elite are exporters, the jewish/protestant owned media. The problem here is that the left is the most critical of Israel and christianity. Conservative america loves israel and christianity. Is this just two facets of protestantism?

There are many Jewish individuals involved on the back end as well (Freud and Marx, ect.) but I keep coming back to protestants attempting to get to the primitive church which was based closely on Judaism. Freemasonry as well is based in Judaism/Protestantism and is also a big player in modernity.

Protestantism:

-Broke off from Catholic church which lead to championing of individual.
-Influenced the focus on natural sciences which has become modern scientism.
-Influenced freemasonry, american revolution, and french revolutions which dealt a great blow to monarchism and lead to rise of democracy across the globe.
-Through focus on hard work and frugalism, helped in invigorating american capitalism which helped make america a super power.
-Focus on individual equality and lack of hierarchy is the foundation of modern neoliberal hegemony.
-All of this has lead to western cultural hegemony.
-Sexual revolution and drug use became cultural staples in protestant america.

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Hasn't this been discredited?

I heard that translation sucks, Talcott Parsons might be the better choice.

Oxford doesn't print shit

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Bump

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What is cryptocalvinism?

Moldbug came up with an idea that modern progressive liberalism as shown in the pre-trump presidency as well as acadmeia and the media was a descendent of puritanism.

A focus on equality and justice, economic access, as well as punishment for wrong think in the court of public appeal as well as legally.

Basically saying that modern society is still a protestant christian while claiming to be secular and often against christianity. Thus cryptocalvinsim since it hides it's origins.

>-Europe is largely catholic and is more atheistic that america.
this is where you're wrong. The most athetistic parts of Europe are protestant based (Scandinavia, England) and the most religious parts are Catholic (Poland, Ireland)

I think you're right. I was mistaken and have been developing the idea along these same lines here:
C.Republic and France are the outliers. Germany is an especially intesting one becuse it's split and matches the catholic religious/protestant atheist divide.

Modern atheism seems like nonsupernatural protestantism to me, I just am trying to find a way to justify it. Plus, I might be blinded by american media.

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Atheism isn't even a word that should even exist any more than there should be a word for not believing in Astrology. Your question makes as much sense as saying "hey can Ahoroscopism be traced back to Protestantism? Both Nick Land and Zoidburg say it can!".

Sorry buddy, I'm just not superstitious.

Atrology influenced the creation of astronomy. Alchemy indluenced the creation of chemistry.

I'm not saying it's absolutley true, in fact it's basically unprovable. I just enjoy the narrative and there's some evidence to support it.

The idea that protestantism opened up the intellectual landscape from Catholic hegemony that in time lead to liberalism and a focus on material sciences which later developed into the foundation of a secular worldview doesn't seem like a terrible thesis.

The question "Did the Protestant movement help to cause widespread non-religiosity in the West?" is a different question to "Can Modern Atheism be traced back to Protestantism?" and that is not just a subtle difference in wording, it is a fundamental difference in the question.

That's absolutly fair, however part of what I'm looking at is how modern life is still retains its protestant character.

It highlights how people retain their protestant character despite the lack of religion, as well as how western media has made this secularized protestantism ubiquitous.

The sitcoms and television shows seem to exibit a general protestant character as opposed to an atheist character largely due to the large WASP/jewish dominance of media.

WASPism is still seen as the standard of success as well. Preppy, education, socially liberal to a degree while still being ruthlessly capitalitic.

It seems to me that modern society is taking on a heavyily secular protestant character.

I don't want to be rude but you sound American. I'm not saying I have a problem with you being American or Americans in general or America as a country, because I don't. However, again, discussing your experience of "modern life" in your specific country and the various historical cultural influences you are affected by is a different thing to the claim that philosophically "Modern Atheism can be traced back to Protestantism".

I'm not American and I'm not from a culturally Protestant culture BTW and I don't know what "preppy" even means.

I am american, I'd love to hear how things are where you're from.

Here's what I'm talking about:
- Besides China, the most heavily atheist countries are in the west.
- Besides america/france/c.repub, protestant countries show the largest amount of atheism.
- Western media and academia (american) are the largest megaphones for atheism, and seems to have a protestant character.
-Western media and culture, especially american, is being globalized constantly.

This liberalizing/secularizing influence on the world seems to be western protestant, with the exception of China.

I'd love you to point out the errors I've made. I am absolutly blinded by my americanism.

I wonder if Chinese atheism could be tied to communism's influence (Mao?) who was likely influenced by Marx. Marx being of Jewish and Protestant descent.

usreligion.blogspot.com/2013/11/karl-marx-as-radical-protestant-infidel.html?m=1

>In his new biography of the nineteenth century intellectual, Karl Marx: A Nineteenth Century Life, Jonathan Sperber affirms that Marx was an atheist of Jewish descent, but suggests that we take seriously the radical Protestant world which Karl Marx was immersed in as a young person, and from which he gained his footing.

>Sperber argues that this Protestant influence is two-fold. First, Marx's father, Heinrich Marx, converted to Protestantism in 1819 in order to escape the prohibition of Jews from government positions within Germany. Sperber argues that if all he wanted was an opportunity to get appointed to a legal office, Heinrich could have become Catholic. He writes, "Going from Judaism to Protestantism in deeply Catholic Trier meant exchanging one form of minority existence for another." Marx, he argues, was the son of a man who appreciated the radical Protestant tradition for its rejection of the close ties of the Roman Catholic church with the Prussian government. He appreciated the French Revolution's Enlightenment and Deist ideals, saw these democratic impulses more aligned with Protestantism than the ancient Roman Church.

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>Can Modern Atheism be traced back to Protestantism?

As a life-long atheist I've always thought so.

Protestantism seems to be to be what happens when you take a critical eye to the bible, and elevate the individual seeker to read it for themselves (presupposing it's the word of god).

Atheism is what happens when you further empower the rational individual to think entirely for themselves.

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Shouldn't you blame "secularism" for creating Atheists, rather than Protestantism?

You know, the Enlightenment was created by the wars of Religion, leading to Secularists and Humanists creating an age of reason to avoid the dogma and inquisitions of religious dominance?

Secularism started around the Reinessance and Reformation, so I don't know that you could seperate them. The same ideas leading to the Reformation also aided Secularization.

The enlightenment happened after the reformation, so I don't know what you're getting at.

Sure, you could say there were ideas present that lead to continuing seculatization, and I would assume people would've broken off from Catholicism eventually even if Luther hadn't lit the fuse.

Would people be atheist today if there was no reformation, probably. Flight goes back to lewis and clarke even if it would've been discovered anyways. Also Luther wasn't in a vacume, so trends could be seen prior to him as well.

It's more an artistic exercise for me, but modern atheism and modernity in general seems to have a portestant flavor to it.

What im saying is the Enlightenment thinkers saw religion as a bad thing because of its wars, this led to them promoting reason over theology as a basis for governance.

Could you then make a argument for this being a product of Catholicism because these Protestant groups never emerged or took root in orthodox societies

Totally, I don't think anyone will disagree that the Enlightenment has massively influenced modern atheism.

That's an interesting concept. At that point you could regress to the romans, then the greeks, and say western civilization and its focus on the individual inevitably leads to atheism.

It lacks the focal point of Luther setting off the explosion, but it does highlight the keg of gun powder that was there prior. He definitly wasn't in a vacume.

Might have somthing to do with the scholastics and their focus on the words of the scripture, then the humanists and their focus on humaity itself that lead to sola scriptura and the individualism as decendent of the reformation.

However, the european countries that are heavily Catholic are less atheist than the protestant contries (as discussed above). So this hurts the artistry of the protestant/athesit narrative. Plus it losses the focus of modern western civilization having a protestant flavor.

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Bumop

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A few new aspects to this idea:

- Materialism/Secularism seems to be heavily influenced by White Protestants (especially germanic), French, and Jews.
- Luther was a german
- Calvin was French
- Nietzsche Protestant Upbrining and German
- Marx (father of modernity) was Jewish and also raised in Protestantism
- Freud (father of modernity) was Jewish
- Descartes - French
- Spinoza - Jewish
- Frankfurt School was largely jewish and some were even influenced by Qqabalah.
- Post-Modernism has been dominated by the French (Foucault, Derrida, Lacan).

Then we have the WASP dominance of america Anglo-Saxon being descendents of germanic tribes. Jewish overrepresentation relative to population in America in Academia and the Media, which has been a dominant push for secualrization which appears to be a nonreligious protestantism.

The connection between Judaism and Protestantism is more difficult. I suppose Jews were able to gain more influence relative to other minorities in Europe and America due to their looking White. I found one source for Protestantism being Juidaized Christianity published in ~1915. Theres a book on Judaiziation under Calvin, but not much else. Freemasonry which is protestant basically has been often connected to Judaism (especailly under the judeo-masonic conspiracy theory of nazism). Rosicrucianism and most protestant mystics like Swedenborg and the Martinists were influenced by Qabalah which is Jewish in origin. Perhaps the lack of outward symbolism in protestantism relative to Catholicism and its general decentralized nature allowed secular jews to become a more influential demographic. Any help here would be appreciated.

>French
So you mean catholics?
Such as Voltaire, Rousseau and Erasmus?

Seems like humanism and secularism was incubated as catholic universities to me.

Thanks for the critique, let me know if you have any other ideas.

Your post is fair, but needs some adjustment. France absolutly is an outlier, as seen above, demographically in relation to catholicism and protestantism. The French left Catholicism against the trend.

Voltaire was very critical of Catholicism and I would imagine he was influenced by the reformation. I can't find good information on his relation to the reformation.

Rousseau converted to Calvinism.

Erasmus was mostly pre-reformation and was also critical of catholicism while remaining loyal to the pope.

Ultimately, Catholic Scholastics and Humanists led directly to the reformation where secularism (as seperation of church and state) really started gaining ground. This was the powder keg that was lit by Luther and the Reformation leading to secularization and individualism.
Mentioned:
Another aspect of French influence here is the momentus French Revolution and its influence snowballing to take down monarchism and increasing liberalism across europe. Many have pointed out the direct protestant influence here (as well as freemasonic), as well as the protestant american revolutions influence on it.

As an aside, I've am trying to reconcile the effect catholic vs protestant metaphyics has on a population.

Somehow, America (founded on protestant rejection of works salvation) became obssesed with work/money/capitalism. It would make so much more sense as the opposite.

Could this be related to the theory of religion as a method of mitigating human vices/obsessions? When works was an aspect of religion, it was related to God and your relation to Him. Once work was emancipated from religion it became man working for himself and thus it became an american obsession.

Similarly, when sex was emancipated from religion in materialism it became the focus of everything in Freud's thought. Also, pornography, sexual revolution, ect.

Similarly with faith. When it was emancipated from faith in God through atheism, man has faith in man. This could be why so many atheists lean left (faith in fellow man in government or anarchism). This could also be why atheists have a stigma of being selfish (materialistic, less children, refuse to grow up. ect.) they have "faith" in their own desires and wants being good.

South Korea and Japan are also mostly non-religous.

Can Veganism be traced back to Sizzler?

Good points:
South Korea bacame mostly protestant through the "movement to destroy the worship of gods" which was protestant lead. The largest religious demo is still protestant.

Japan is a hard one to nail down. Some report it is 30-40% atheist, but others say irreligion numbers in Japan refer to a lack of membership to a certain religion, not a disbelief in the supernatural. Others claim it is impossible to define Japanese relgion by western standards. Definitely doesn't tie to the protestant/atheist narrative. I don't know enough about Japan, but I believe they are very affected by western media, so it would be interesting to know what was the source of this atheism.

I would imagine the modern vegan movement was influenced by industrialization and commercialization of meat eating, yes.

Atheism is a result of Left-Hegelianism. Hegel himself can be considered somewhat of a neoplatonist and deeply inspired by Thomas Aquinas. Although Kant also played a major role in his early work his professional career is dominated by a critical renunciation of his ideas.

The theoretical groundwork for Feuerbachs criticism of religion is ergo a result of a catholic frame of logic.

There were already deists, humanists, and atheists in the west prior to Hegel being born.

Kant, Hegel, and Feuerbach were all protestant.

While they absolutley influence modern atheism and secularism, I don't see how what you said really deals with the main ideas here.

Hegel didn't start teaching until the 1800's.

A futher note here:

Japan and South Korea are among the most westernized of eastern civilization, along with Hong Kong.

How much of their atheism is due to Western White Protestant/Jewish media?

I know a catholic who is already at "no miracles"
may God have mercy on his soul

>Atheism is what happens when you further empower the rational individual to think entirely for themselves.

>that bold text at the bottom
provably false, faggot
>faith without works is dead
faith without works isn't faith. it's in the fucking bible. But those works attribute nothing to righteousness or salvation themselves. That is entirely done on the cross. However, those with faith in the saving power of the cross do good works for the Glory of God. There is no work you can do to move closer to God, you have no power to do good without him.

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>>modern atheism is a non-supernatural version of protestantism
This doesn't work because all atheism is is a lack of belief in a deity or group of deities. There is no inherent ideology to being an atheist, if you are an atheist you just don't believe in any sort of deities.

I corrected if for you

no to the holocaust

Atheists (as a group lean left) largely still retain much of their liberalization from protestantism:
- general belief in equality
- Socialist policies as charity
- the righteousness and attack on wrong speak (racism, sexism, ect.)
- The desire to create a city on a hill (utopianism).

Plus the general secular jewish/white protestant culture hegemony that is globalized through western media.

This is unprovable, but modern society in the west, and those largely westernized, take on a secular protestant character.

Do you mean that it was such an atrocity that it pushed western civ toward atheism?

Do you have any good sources for this?
It's an interesting idea.

Yes, because catholicism was infused with pagan elements which ensured a deeper connection with the population. When protestantism rejected these and instead attempted to reform their religion by judaizing it, to a near nihilistic level, it lost meaning and connection to the folk, and people began to throw away ALL religion, instead of just protestantism.

Here is a good video about the theme:

youtube.com/watch?v=dGizKIcUxqY

yes if this happened to us there is no god

there is no difference between pagans and catholics at all

no dif between pagans, Jews and muslims as well.

> It would make so much more sense as the opposite.
no it wouldn’t. Protestantism = glorification of materials works. What they reject is spirtual works. Also since your “reward” in the afterlife is guaranteed they seek rewards in this life i.e wealth and status.

So catholics = jews = muslims = pagans

Hm, I get why protestantism is related to atheism now...

same way up is related to down