What the hell happened in the 89 Tianamen Square protest...

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youtube.com/watch?v=KaD7TVJzPv0

youtube.com/watch?v=yE7EkTRS96M

youtube.com/watch?v=KNI6JM9PpbY
>witnesses report finding 14.5 caliber shells in the streets - typically fired from anti-aircraft guns
>the Chinese government billed the families of the protesters for the cost

youtube.com/watch?v=2JWMRg1KoCQ
>1:48:00

Wasn’t it a left wing protest against Deng’s market reforms?

So who here is from the "he got ran over" universe and who's from the shitty "he got pulled out of the way" universe?

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Dude probably got pulled away from Public Security Bureau that we're running intercept for the army. I have no doubts that he wasn't executed, he may have not been vaunted by the party as he was executed, but he is definitely dead for this. The amount of executions following this was staggering.

t. Ching Chong Pingpong

pic related

>that guy doing a CIA power stance

To an extent. Student protesters were angry about Deng backing off on previous policies regarding public criticism, and were also generally orthodox marxists. Many of the older protesters were upset at the huge cuts to Iron Rice Bowl jobs.

>le revisionist leftist historian
Pretty sure it was a series of pro-democracy protests. Building a replica of the Statue of Liberty is not really an anti-market symbol.

I see that pic a lot, but was that woman even shot or was the soldier just aiming at here while she’s being arrested?

Asking for political democracy is different than asking for privatization of the economy.

Asiatics love lunging theirselves into meat grinders because it's easier for them since they believe in things like perpetual reincarnation while westerners are more hesitant because they feel they only have this life to make their peace with God unless you insert some blood atonement clause for holy war.

Which is also different from being against said reforms.

Fair enough.

A replica of this was built in Washinton DC and is the main part in a monument dedicated to the victims of communism. Here are american left wing students at that monument

Good, muh gorillions is a brainlet tier argument for or against any system.

>youtube “sources”

>the Chinese government billed the families of the protesters for the cost
Proven as a myth.

Sure thing pig fascist

wew lad

Wow guys.

The video/pictures shows him not get run over. The tank driver gets out and talks with him for a few minutes and then the tank man returns into the crowd.

Most historians agree that he was then apprehended and sentenced to a political prisoner camp. The video/pictures ended once tank man returned to the crowd though.

I trust old History Channel, sorry bud. Besides, something akin to pic related happened.

^

t. loyal comrade Wang Shen

you know there does seem to be a surprising number of white people involved, coincidence?

I do not dispute the weapons used. I have no clue which were used.

I simply am pointing out the “billed protestors’ families” myth is a proven debunked myth.

South Korea openly admits to it happening and built monuments to it and shit. China doesn't even recognize the Tienanmen incident at all.

>next to a dirt wall
>pointed right at her head with finger on the trigger
>aiming intently
>guy getting his head as far away as possible from the muzzle.

Would I be considered a tankie if I believe that 10,000 deaths is way too exaggerated and its been used as a propaganda tool by the West? No doubt the massacre and crackdown wasn't justified and these protests were not some "muh Soros" protest because people did had genuine criticisms of the CPC and the regime. We can feel sorry for them but at the same time see the 10,000 death figure as exaggerated.

I’m a lefty, but if you reject a system because it killed millions of people then you will have to withdraw from politics altogether. Or you can get into the retarded mess of “x killed 100 million but y killed 101 million checkmate y”. Not to mention the argument of what constitutes a death caused by an ideology.

>hey, just because this is an authoritarian regime that murders its own citizens for simply protesting against them isnt a valid argument against that system!

lick those boots like the sissy slut you are you fascist pig

>Pretty sure it was a series of pro-democracy protests.
Nope. It was an absolute clusterfuck.

You had pro-democracy rallyists, old-guard Maoists upset with Deng, angry college students who were in both, and then some other reformists.

That’s not what I’m saying, I’m talking about the whole capitalism vs communism debate more generally. Resisting oppression as it is happening to you is different from stacking bodies and deciding the winner by whoever has the smallest pile.

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did 4444 die?

2 yen has been deposited into your account

Perfect.

nice

armed Israel-armed terrorists opened fire on government vehicles and on the students and blamed it on the army

>yen

I think a lot of people would probably mind gommunism a lot less if they dropped the lenin wuz a good boy he dindu nuffin those kulaks deserved it angle and instead embraced the yeah we killed millions but have you seen the year on year production increase argument.
Sadly even the atheistic apparently need saints.

Actually, it does

South Korea did not even acknowledge their massacre(s) until 1998 when Kim won.

Thanks for playing!

Extremely long post I found in an other site that I think explains the shit show quite well:

>See after Mao's death in 1976, Deng Xiaoping came to power and was finally able to do what he and many of his allies wanted to do for years, opening up China and getting economic reforms under way, beginning the To Be Rich is Glorious Era. However, there was an issue, in that there were still many in the CCP who wanted to build a functioning Communist Society and were angered by Deng's faction's rejection of communism and open embrace of Capitalism.

>So a deal was struck. There would only be a limited amount of reforms, centered on the cities along the coastlines. Inner China could remain as it was, but the coastline settlements could begin to engage in mass trade and economic activities as well as more liberal education. The good thing and the bad thing was that it worked just as Deng had hoped. Good because it brought wealth and advancements to China. Bad because it worked and many began to clamor for more even greater reforms on grander scales.

>Now if Deng had his way, he'd gladly do it. But now he faced two factions opposed to it, the communist old guard and those survivors of Mao's Grand Reforms who remembered what happened last time a chinese leader tried to push forward a grand reform and how that shitshow ended. They were against a grander reform and wanted to keep it slow and steady.

>Problem is many of the newly arising middle class students who have seen their lives change drastically once they moved to these cities and gotten the more advance education didn't care about that. They wanted the Grander Reforms and they wanted it now, which to be fair we know they were right, but it is also hard to blame the CCP for being hesitant given what happened last time.

>From the tales my parents have told me, in these universities these students began to plan a peaceful protest nation wide to ask for the reforms to be pushed forward faster, and it was likely that they had support and advisors from the US and Europe to help them do that. Many of the would be leaders of the protest would establish connections with the US before the event.

>Another thing to remember was that at the time, China had no riot control gear. They didn't yet have the ability to make enough and because of China's old association with the USSR the West absolutely refused to let China buy any from the West. With no Riot Police, the CCP didn't have much choice when it comes to dealing with any mass protests. But that is for later.

>When the protests finally began nationwide, well initially the CCP was kind of fucking terrified. However after they learned about what was going on, from what we know Deng was actually kind of happy while his enemies were kind of angry. Deng didn't want to crush these protests or bring the military down upon them, not only would that risk a civil war, but these students were the very saplings of the future his reforms created. They wanted the reforms because his reforms worked, they were the very sign that his plan was right. Many of these students would later become the modern leaders of the CCP btw.

>Deng's faction was perfectly happy with giving the students what they asked for, because it was what they wanted as well. At the same time most of the protest leaders were happy as well, because hey wouldn't you? So talk began on what exactly the deal would be, but the signs looked good.

>The problem was that extremists on both sides werent happy with that. In the CCP the Old Guard and the Survivors were angry and saw the negotiations as foolish, and suspected that the students were being used by Foreign polities, so they felt a show of force would work better. And among the students, there were those leaders who didn't want a peaceful resolution to the situation. No they wanted blood, they wanted a civil warm either because they craved power or because they were egged on by their friends in the West.

>We have one interview of one of the student leaders called Chai Ling had with an western journalist who straight up said as much;

>"Chai Ling: "My fellow students keep asking me, 'What should we do next? What can we accomplish?' I feel so sad, because how can I tell them that what we actually are hoping for is bloodshed, the moment when the government is ready to brazenly butcher the people. Only when the Square is awash with blood will the people of China open their eyes. Only then will they really be united. But how can I explain any of this to my fellow students?
"And what is truly sad is that some students, and famous well-connected people, are working hard to help the government, to prevent it from taking such measures. For the sake of their selfish interests and their private dealings they are trying to cause our movement to disintegrate and get us out of the Square before the government becomes so desperate that it takes action....
"That's why I feel so sad, because I can't say all this to my fellow students. I can't tell them straight out that we must use our blood and our lives to wake up the people. Of course, they will be willing. But they are still so young..." [cries]
Interviewer: "Are you going to stay in the Square yourself?
Chai Ling: "No."
Interviewer: "Why?"
Chai Ling: "Because my situation is different. My name is on the government's blacklist. I'm not going to be destroyed by this government. I want to live. Anyway, that's how I feel about it. I don't know if people will say I'm selfish. I believe that people have to continue the work I have started. A democracy movement can't succeed with only one person. I hope you don't report what I've just said for the time being, okay?"

Sorry fucked up last's posts quotes:

>And any case, these people got their wish. With Extremists in the government stonewalling things, and extremists in the student camp inflaming the situation, something that should have ended a long time ago go dragged on and eventually, once the negotiations were ruined by their machinations, the government became convinced that the students were patsies and they had to move in the troops, and the student leaders who hoped for a bloodbath were ready.

>Don't be mistaken and think this was one sided massacre. This was a fucking urban war. Entire Units of soldiers were killed by prepared students, their bodies burned and hanged in the streets, and some tanks were even reduced to rubble. And in response, military units and tank battalions treated this like a war and ruthlessly crushed all students who they even suspected were involved.

>And what of the student leaders who wished for this? They fucking fled to the West, they knew the storm they were calling and so they ran before things went hot even though half the responsibilities laid with them. When men like the Tank Man showed selfless courage, they showed nothing but selfish cowardice.

>Once the night ended, nothing was gained. And Deng Xiaoping's liberal reforms and economic reforms were discredited within the CCP. It would take him a humongous effort in order to push the liberalization of China forward again.

>So really it is so hard to understand why the modern leaders of the CCP, many of whom not only lived through this, but participated in it on the sides of the students might be wary of any movements calling for democracy? Or any western NGOs trying to promote western ideals? Because they remember well what happened last time, when they were tricked by their leaders and said leader's western connections and left to die as sacrifices.

VERY good post

Tiananmen wasn't the only protest. There were protests all over the country, like Shanghai. Jiang Zemin actually made his name for dealing with the protest in Shanghai without making a big scene.

t. enlightened centrist

H-how?

>skirmishes
>regular army murdering rioting civilians

ok

>skirmishes

wow

>没有
No

Thats still a pretty shit damage control though

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>When you don't know the difference between the syndie flag and the commie flag

>Entire Units of soldiers were killed by prepared students, their bodies burned and hanged in the streets, and some tanks were even reduced to rubble
[Citation fucking needed]
How did the PLA lose multiple tanks to untrained college kids with nothing better than petrol bombs? Even assuming they had some urban warfare prodigies and got really lucky with molotovs, what the fuck antitank weapons did the students have that could "reduce tanks to rubble"?? They burned down some shitty BMPs, not main battle tanks.

Less than 10 PLA troops died in the clearing action, not counting six who died in a noncombat traffic accident. If it was an urban war, it was one-sided as fuck.

>when you think anyone cares about the meaningless varieties of your inherently unworkable system

>When you make an excuse for not understanding differences in political ideologies

None of this shit will ever put in place or influence anything, why should I read the political equivalent of fan fiction?

Gruesomely arousing

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>None of this shit will ever put in place or influence anything
Are you literally saying China isn't real communism?

You just proved to me you haven't read any of it you fucking retard. The fucking dumb ass claim that "none of this shit will ever put in place or influence anything" is stupid as shit. So no social-economic change or influence is taken from these ideas?? Are you blind? Leftism as a whole has influenced everything in modern society.

Yes. I'm saying anarcho-syndicalism will never change or do anything. I've read about the types of communism that were actually put in place and changed history, I just cannot force myself to care about the stupid worthless offshoots of it people keep dreaming up, especially since people think their stupid offshoot is gonna work when every actual attempt at communism has a been a complete diaster.

He's living in Japan to access Veeky Forums

What no-one tells you about that picture is that the man wasn't making any sort of political statement, thats just how Chinese people behave in traffic.

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You’re implying that no one sees past your dog whistle shit

>hehe I’m not one of those Stalin like people! I’m just a social demo socialist democrat! Hehe!

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>"That's why I feel so sad, because I can't say all this to my fellow students. I can't tell them straight out that we must use our blood and our lives to wake up the people. Of course, they will be willing. But they are still so young..." [cries]
>Interviewer: "Are you going to stay in the Square yourself?
>Chai Ling: "No."

this, sounds like damage control to me

Good luck removing judeocapitalism with nonviolence