So it's been decided

I have nothing else to do but be at the gym every day. I've made solid noob gains on a PPL routine anyway. I was just curious what your suggestion was.

I do a Pull-Legs-Push-Pull-Legs-Push-Cardio every week. It may not be optimal for strength or size or whatever, but I stay in great shape and I love what exercise has done for my physical and emotional health.

Just find what you enjoy doing and be consistent with it.

Greyskull LP is essentially no different than a PPL routine though. One extra bench per week, but the volume balances out.

You literally have nothing else to do? I envy you. In addition to the gym, I'd also use this free time to explore other hobbies and interests. Free time is a luxury you may not always possess.

Noobs can make gains on basically any program. Most of your gains are just your body quickly adapting to sudden frequent training.

The reason people do SS and Greyskull LP is to build a solid foundation of strength and decent size from the big lifts (OHP, Bench Press, Squat, Deadlift, Rows, Pullups).

PPL is not a good idea for new lifters.

It is a little more upper body work. AMRAP is very good for newbies IMO.

Yeah

Look up Zach from starting strength

SS is a meme. Too be honest, in my experience I had the best gains and was in the best shape when I was doing a Chest-Tris, Back/Bis, Shoulders/Legs split six days a week. However, I was STRONGEST when I was training full body on MadCow 5x5, but I got a lot fatter from being obsessed with numbers and muh permabulk. I got hella strong, but then injured myself and realized drug-free powerlifting is fucking stupid unless you're in that top 1% genetic elite.

Fast forward to now, losing weight again and focusing more on being athletic. Basically just want to have general strength, muscle, good cardio, and I went vegan.

Don't fall for the powerlifting meme, you can still get strong over time using progressive overload on a bro-split. Either way, you need to add weight to the bar whether your goal is strength OR aesthetics. But for the fast majority of people, it's much safer and more profitable in the long term for gains to just do hypertrophy training.

*vast majority

we will make it

>safer

You're an idiot. Stop posting.

Not an argument.

You've obviously never trained hard in your life if you don't consider injury rates and safety. Any good athlete has injured themselves before. It's apart of pushing yourself. When you do very heavy powerlifting style training as a drug-free lifter you are much more likely to get an injury, are you not? What do you think for the long term would be less likely to injure you. Doing heavy sets of singles or triples on bench for a year? Or doing sets with moderate weight at a rep range of 8 to 10 for example?

Fuck off.

>strengthening muscles is not safe
>using lightweight shit form for 40 reps is safe

Strawman fallacy.

I never said strengthening muscles is not safe. I even said in my original post that progressive overload is necessary for either goal of strength or muscle gain. Furthermore that you can still gain strength if you wanted to do a bro-split as long as you progressively overload. You don't need to go heavy as fuck all the time in order to gain mass. Can you get strong? Of course you can, but it comes with a higher risk of injury.

Also I never said doing 40 reps is good or even optimal. That's just retarded. But you can gain muscle perfectly fine just using moderate weights with sets of 8-12 reps. When that's too easy then up the weight i.e. progressively overload. This isn't complicated. If someone wants to do SS or SL that's totally fine, they can do whatever they want. All I'm saying is that in my experience it isn't worth it.

Fuck off brosplitter stop shitting up the board.

None of these are arguments. I'm not suggesting five day bodypart splits. Those are retarded. But Push/Pull/Legs works, do does Upper/Lower. Full body can work very well too. There's more than just SS to get strong and big, I hope you realize that.

This.

Look at how obese powerlifters are.

>all powetlifters are obese

PPL has all of those things, it just adds accessories and spaces workouts differently.

Who decided this and when?
On what authority was the decision made?

People just claim to speak for the board all the time, memes never end.

This guy knows the score.

>went vegan
Never gonna make it

What's your Pull workout, guys? I'm too heavy for normar pull ups so I do supported but three sets of 8-10 fatique my whole body to shit, should I do 3x5 or 5x5 instead or just stick to cable pulldowns?
After pull/chinups I do rows (different kinds), shrugs and finish with a shitton of DB/EZ/BBcurls.

hi ive been lifting for 8 months, i dont think i can progress from stupid linear progression anymorei keep stalling. what next? concurrent?

I do ppl doing axbxcx focusing on bench, deadlift, and squat/ohp on each respective day 5x5 as the focus on a progressive overload and added accessories.

So far making very good gains, will probably switch it up once I start to stall though.

>be noob lifter
>expend 2/3 of energy on fluff/pump accessory lifts

What a fucking waste of noob gains.

an intermediate program with some sort of periodization

No.

SS and cookie cutter shit are the virgin routines.
Lifting once-twice a week with enough intensity and volume is the chad program.

>no need to regulate fatigue in order to recover from session to session
>muscle protein synthesis meme is irrelevant if you are not doing enough work per session in order to create a response and actually grow
>high frequency memesters fail to realize this and merely look at the novel stimilus caused by increasing frequency, never realizing that they need to do enough work per session in order for that session to be productive in the first place
>they never recover properly from session to session unless they're autistic as fuck about controlling volume(not too much but not too little either) and intensity(better start using dem (((RPE's))) on every single set)

Every single fucking champion trains a movement/bodypart once a week, anyone who does more than this is merely jumping on le natty must train more often bandwagon.

Truth is, the natty needs to train just as often as roid users(sometimes more because natties cause less muscle damage just by being weaker, or sometimes less because people who take drugs recover faster in terms of muscle damage but also in terms of central nervous system fatigue) but needs to do MORE volume to get HALF the gains.

>PPL
>Brosplit

Clueless SS drones need to be stopped

>35 squat sessions per week
>no volume
HOW. How is it even possible to have no volume when you're doing 5 sessions per day?
Is he doing a single or a double at a time?

The easiest possible way to continue progressing is training less often but upping the volume you are doing on each session.

Reason why rippetoe recommends cutting off wednesday's heavy squats for some light squats instead, and the more advanced you get the more workload dense the first session of the week gets.

I would do 5x5 and add some pull down sets if you still have gas in the tank.

also curious about this.

Max aita talked about this before on video, he was stalling constantly with daily squatting, he would just go to the gym EVERY SINGLE DAY most of the time more than once a day, and warm up to a heavy single.

it took him 10 years to reach 600lb on the squat, this is one of the most inefficient ways to train.
Despite high frequency memesters claiming high frequency is always best, even if you warm up to a heavy max on a lift, it is so little actual work done that your body barely improves.

How do you think muscles grow? they can't tell if you are lifting a max load or not, they grow if they're doing enough work, a fucking single at 300lb, or 400lb or 500lb hell even 700lb is not enough to make progress no matter how many times a week you lift.

Now, if you are on a shitload of steroids, that's a different story, since you are basically growing muscle all the time without even lifting weights, and doing heavy singles every day makes your strength/lift eficiency go up, but you're not actually gonna get strong by doing minimal work on each individual session.
It's just not gonna happen on someone who isn't a complete novice, a genetic mutant or taking steroids.

...

I'd like to see those 'Volume Training Studies'.
Were the 1-set guys working out 6 times as often as the 6-sets guys?
Anyway, working up to an heavy single 5 times per day... means you've done 5 singles. It doesn't take a genius to see it's not enough for growth. If he had done 3 to 5 reps, it would be a much more powerful datapoint, showing that you have to work the sets together and accumulated fatigue matters more than a faster recovery with the same weekly volume.

>going to work 5 days a week as if it were your life

lmao@your life

The 1-set guys were working out as often as the 6-set guys.

The issue here is that the body response to training is MINIMAL even as a beginner after a few months of lifting.
And if you've been lifting for at least a year, well good luck getting any gains doing ONE set a day everyday.
There needs to be a certain ammount of total work done on each individual session in order for progress to happen, disperssing your volume to 3 sets on each individual session is bullshit, unless you're a high responder to training, in which case thank your parents for blessing you with good genetics.
The vast majority of people need and should work harder, but not often. One hard session a week like it was done in the studies

Most people who make the switch from high volume low frequency to high frequency and low volume think they're getting stronger and building muscle and strength when in all actuallity they're just dissipating fatigue build up, and end up being able to demonstrate the strength that they already had, that was masked by the fatigue.

I fell for the high frequency meme so many times before, it is the worst possible way to train, it requires the most programming and analysis, you stagnate easy regardless, it's less fun, it's more mentally fatiguing. It gives you the false impression you're working hard enough just because you're going to the gym more often.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16287373
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14971985
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19661829
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20300012

thats why do compounds first. duh

So high frequency is good to lose fatigue without actually decreasing the load. That can be useful.
And apparently there's no study that keeps the volume the same, but splits it over more days. With the 'optimal' number of sets found at 2-3 per muscle group, could that be a solution if you find yourself lifting for more than 3 sets? Instead of lifting 3/week with let's say a TM-like fluctuation (9 sets per week for the squat), squatting 4-5/week but only with 2-3 sets each time?

You're welcome

...

You can train often and do good volume on each session at the same time.

The issue here is that it takes very good programming and planning in order to maintain this, and even then is it really worth all the trouble?
Training more often implies spending more time going to the gym, packing, spending more time moving back home.

Sheiko has you planning every single set you do for weeks ahead, so that you don't work yourself into the ground, and even then some people cannot handle sheiko programming which often has you squatting twice or three times a week(same frequency as starting strength, yeah that is considered high frequency already) but with a bit more or a bit less volume on each session depending on the specific day and week on each individual cycle.
It also has "deload" periods built in, preventing burnout.
It just makes things more complicated.

You can lift heavy and often, but it's not good for growth or long term strength gains unless you have good genetics, or are new to training, or taking steroids. You need enough workload/volume to grow.
You can lift often and with good ammount of volume without going to failure or going heavy, but most people just end up training too hard on any given day, burying themselves in fatigue.

There's really nothing magical about these training programs, sheiko is one of the best there is because there are so many variations out there depending on your level of genetics and strength adaptation, you basically don't even need to think about your programming, just put in your max lifts and it plans everything for you.

But is it something you would enjoy doing?
In my experience sheiko is the best high frequency training "program" there is, just gotta find the proper variation for you with the adequate number of lifts and volume for your level of adaptation.

A lot of the top level powerlifters in the IPF train a movement or bodypart once-twice a week, even if they're not the majority.

Lmaoing at these duels arguing between these two shit tier program.
The one true answer is Candito's Six Week program. You will build Herculean strength but also get aesthetic like a demigod. Can't recommend this more than enough. Everyone should cycle this programming take my fucking word.

>You will build Herculean strength but also get aesthetic like a demigod

Stay blind to the true path dyel. You will never make it.

Experienced lifters (140kg+ squatters) seem to benefit greatly more from adding volume than adding in sessions.

Mike israetel seems to agree that there needs to be an increase in per session workload density in order to progress steadily.

strongerbyscience.com/more-is-more/

This study was done on 2x a week frequency.
The lifters who did the most volume(8 sets twice a week) gained the most strength and muscle.

The more advance you are, the less often you can train hard, so it's safe to assume that after you get to 200kg+ squat you cannot sustain doing so much volume on more than one day a week.
It goes in line with what you usually find in people who truly work hard, they never work hard more than once a week, because they physically cannot progress doing it, unless they're programming and undulating their volume and intensity on each session(in other words, not really working as hard as they can).

okay demigod post physique

already know this is getting ignored hahaha

lmao at this whole exchange