REMINDER that if you want aesthetics and are doing starting strength or Stronglifts...

nothing, but its made primarily for athletes who are training 4-5 days per week AND who want to gain muscle/strength.

if that's you, great. if it isn't, fine, but SS will have you plateau pretty quick because volume is low, and you aren't doing any other sport exercise.

Yeah, pounds of muscle. You can still get fat.

Those Squat and Deadlift numbers are huge, sign me up senpai.

It's because he did gomad.

God every fucking faggot on this site.
THERES NO LIFTING PROGRAM IN THE FUCKING WORLD THAT WILL MAKE YOU FAT.
YOUR BODYFAT IS 100% BASED ON YOUR DIET. LIFTING WEIGHTS OF ANY KIND CANNOT CREATE FAT BASED ON THE LAWS OF PHYSICS AND CHEMISTRY WE UNDERSTAND OF THIS UNIVERSE.

you telling me he grew that much hair in 4 months? rite faggot.

At first you can easily make strength gains and go +5/10 lbs in the beginning. Eventually after like a month you will STALL unless you eat exactly how Rippletoe tells you to (1000+ calories everyday) so you can stay on a linear gains path by just increasing your actual body weight with fat.

If you're still at a "beginner level strength" and you're stalling, SS does nothing to help besides tell you to eat more and wait until next week. It's absolute shit for bench/ohp also.

>THERES NO LIFTING PROGRAM IN THE FUCKING WORLD THAT WILL MAKE YOU FAT.
SHUT THE FUCK UP FAGGOT. Did you EVEN READ THE STARTING STRENGTH BOOK??? Mark LITERALLY says you're not following the program if you're stalling and tells you to eat more even if you become a lardass.

STARTING STRENGTH IS SHIT because the FUNDAMENTAL DESIGN OF IT assumes you can keep adding weight after 3 weeks by eating like a fatass.

But going by the numbers, as someone above said, it ends up being 55 lbs of muscle gain in 4 months

>Mark LITERALLY says you're not following the program if you're stalling and tells you to eat more even if you become a lardass
He also says you should only follow SS for 6 months or so.

The entire point of the program is to get stronk fast.

Getting fat don't have anything to do with a lifting routine.. It's diet and cardio. If you lift with the most greatest routine in the world, but still ate like shit and do GOMAD meme/dirty bulk then yes, you will still look like shit.

-Do your cardio at least 4~5 times a week, yes, even of you're bulking. Don't b lazy.
-Eat right, study up macros. And eat at a 200~500 caloric surplus, not like 1000 calories.

Is 5x5 a better beginner program

>le 5x5 meme
It's literally SS but with more stalling.

OK

What would you recommend then user

OATS AND SQUATS

In case you can't realize it Is a retard and you shouldn't listen to it. 5x5 and SS are both fine if you dont fall for gomad

if you're doing 3x a week just switch to phraks greyskull or add accessories to stronglifts, do bench/ohp first, and only squat once-2x a week.

> He also says you should only follow SS for 6 months or so.
where does he say this? my recollection was he says you should follow until you can no longer make progress. theoretically this could last anywhere from forever to a few weeks

okay let's get the obvious out of the way first, image is a joke/troll
>only adding 50 to a bench
>hair length

But for the people who are scared from seeing things like Zach and shit, let's talk about SS for aesthetics real quick:

first question: how long do you think it takes to look good? 6 months? if it was that easy, everyone would do it.

It takes ~2years natty lifting to look good, and that's with proper diet and rest. If those three things (diet, training, rest) are all good, you WILL look good in 1.5-2 years.

Doing Starting Strength for 3-6 months will NOT make you look good, that's true. But neither will doing ANY program. Someone who is doing a bro split for a year might look better than someone who's been doing SS 6 months + PPL for 6months, but give them another year and the brosplit will lag.

Starting Strength is the BEST program for novices, hands down. It builds your strength faster than any other program, adding 15 pounds a week to your squat and 15 pounds every two weeks to your other major lifts. And you NEED strength to be able to transition into a hypertrophy program.

A lot of DYELs will ask what the "SS of aesthetics" is, and the answer is that SS is the SS of aesthetics.

>b-but muh T rex mode!

Two things. One: yes. Your quads are going to grow. A lot. They're a huge muscle group and you're hitting them 3x/week. What do you expect them to do?

Two: almost NO one on Veeky Forums actually has ever done SS by the book. Everyone does their own little half-assed homebrew version of it. In the actual book, Rip recommends doing accessory lifts for the upper body after getting comfortable with the big 3. He also says that you can transition to a light squat in the middle of the week so you're not squatting heavy 3x/week but no one on Veeky Forums knows this because no one has actually read the book.

>b-but muh GOMAD

GOMAD is for SKELETON MEN for the very beginning of their training. That is IT. It's also not necessary to do it during SS.

to elaborate on this:

>A lot of DYELs will ask what the "SS of aesthetics" is, and the answer is that SS is the SS of aesthetics.

Let me be clear, I'm not calling SS an aesthetics program. I'm saying that for ANY aesthetics program, you need to be strong FIRST. The fastest way to get strong is through SS. Therefore, for newbies who ask the question, "I want to get aesthetic. What program should I start with?" the answer is SS, despite it NOT being an aesthetics-based program.

With proper ancillary exercises (dips, chins, hammer curls, skullcrushers), minimal aesthetic gains on SS ARE possible.

> I'm saying that for ANY aesthetics program, you need to be strong FIRST
Why? This statement isn't backed by science. Hypertrophy routines builds stength and muscle. Beginners grow like crazy on any kind of training. Starting with a strength program is only necessary if your goal is stength.

>muh science

DYEL detected. Methodology for studying ANY type of muscle growth, &c. is suspect. Experience and common sense trumps studies every time.

If you can lift heavier weight, you will damage your muscle tissue more. Every child knows this. The heavier the weight you can lift, the more hypertrophy you can attain.

> Beginners grow like crazy on any kind of training.

And once those newbie gains slow down you're going to want to be very strong so you can grow your muscles on a hypertrophy program.

this
I looked fucking great 6 months after doing strength training even with beginner-tier numbers
its not until I started eating straight up garbage everyday that my body went to shit

> Experience and common sense trumps studies every time
No it doesn't because everyone has different experiences.
> And once those newbie gains slow down you're going to want to be very strong so you can grow your muscles on a hypertrophy program
This logic doesn't follow nor hold up. A strength program isn't necessary for a beginner unless their is goal is strength and there's zero proof to the contrary. A hypertrophy program will build muscle mass as good as or better than a strength program.

>implying strong as fuck doesn't equal aesthetic as fuck

>Theoretically take forever to stop getting linear progression

Brb benching for 3 years worth of linear progression, will report back with 3,000lb bench press

If you had micro plates small enough you could theoretically stay on SS forever, adding .1lb each tiem xD

>No it doesn't because everyone has different experiences.

You completely missed the point and don't know what you're talking about.

>A hypertrophy program will build muscle mass as good as or better than a strength program.

This is how i know you are a complete moron. Of course a hypertrophy program builds muscle better than a strength program. That's not the issue at hand. What I am saying, which I will spell out very carefully for you because you're obviously slow, is this:

3-6 months of SS + 1.5-1.75 years of a hypertrophy program will result in a more aesthetic body than 2 years of hypertrophy.

THEREFORE, for newbies asking about what "aesthetics program" they should run, if they have never lifted before, the answer will always be "SS" despite it not being a hypertrophy program.

it doesn't. got a 5'9 170 lb friend who has reasonably impressive numbers on all his oly lifts at the gym (400+ low-bar squat, 315 front squat, 285 bench etc), but still looks dyel in his normal clothes.

if you put me and him next to eachother at a bar, I still look bigger even though I barely bench 2 plate and dont really squat very often. might be because im 6'1, but yeah i also just have bigger arms/traps/shoulders from brosplitting it up

> 3-6 months of SS + 1.5-1.75 years of a hypertrophy program will result in a more aesthetic body than 2 years of hypertrophy
Training in a variety of rep ranges likely stimulates muscle growth better than training in the same rep range. Beyond this, there's no exact science so you're pretty much spouting bullshit.

False. 3 months SS + 1.75 yrs hypertrophy yields better results than 1.75 yrs hypertrophy + 3 months SS

Just because he may or may not be using a juiced up dude as a related pic doesn't mean his point is entirely moot. Gear can get you size but it can't get you proportion like a proper lifting program, especially like one that's designed for strength. Faggot.

> 5'9 170 lb
>285 bench
>Looks DYEL

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUULLLLLSHIT

[citation needed]

every CBT thread with people going "was on a bro split for a year, now trying to get my lifts up"

Lol, yeah...

>167% Bench
>looks DYEL

>1k club
>looks DYEL

Either you're lying about something, or he is

>Just because he may or may not be using a juiced up dude as a related pic doesn't mean his point is entirely moot.

Yes you unbelievably stupid fuck.
It does in fact make their fucking point 500% moot.

ANY STUPID GODDAMNED PROGRAM WILL MOTHERFUCKING WORK IF YOURE ON GEAR
OCCASIONALLY DOING A PUSHUP AND A PULLUP WILL GET YOU GAINS WHEN YOURE ON GEAR

it's common sense. if you spend a year and a half lifting a campbell's soup can, you're wasting your time. Lifting heavier weights for a year and a half will yield more muscle gains than lifting lighter weights for a year and a half.

i can't believe i have to explain this to you man come on think for like fifteen mississippi seconds before you post.

Having to resort to shit like that outright states that you're either full of shit or know you're fucking wrong and need to play games and hope that the person you're arguing with is a retard.

>having to resort to that

Resort to what? Common sense? God forbid...

stop being logical user

LOL calm down there gene shallot. 500% quite the arbitrary percentage there. You can look at somebody and tell if they don't do pull-ups like you can tell if somebody skips lower body day. It's fucking simple. You can be hopped way the fuck up on gear and still develop muscle imbalances, let alone neglect entire muscle groups. If the dude in the picture had any egregious muscle imbalances you'd see them like you do in a bodybuilder. You just have no idea what you're looking at. You've probably been lifting for how long? A year at most?

> Lifting heavier weights for a year and a half will yield more muscle gains than lifting lighter weights for a year and a half
No, it won't.

Jesus Christ you have no working idea of how steroids work whatsoever.

Steroids literally can make you fat. This is one massive side effects of steroids. Steroids have medical uses. One of the largest side effects of any anabolic steroids is that it will make you gain weight. Generally people who have to take steroids are who are out of shape shit eaters, and don't exercise. Do you know what the steroids do to them? Makes them balloon in size, and not in muscle. They don't suddenly become Arnold, they just get really, really, really fat.

Just fucking google "steroid fat side effects" so you can see clear medical evidence refuting your asinine ideas about the world.

I'm sorry but...SS and the other BABBYS FIRST powerlifting programs all have major fucking embalances inherent to them.
This isn't even up for debate at this point. It's a fact.

The guy in your post is not only on litteral grams of gear and god knows what else, he also obviously does a bodybuilder type program. Why? Because bigger muscles, no muscle imbalances, and strength endurance is DEMANDED to perform at the highest levels of real sports.

You can fucking point to and tell what fuckwad only does "the big lifts" and fuck all else and see how horribly unbalance they are.

All other things (rep range, rest, diet) being exactly equal? Yes it absolutely will.

That doesn't even make fucking sense you stupid fuck.
What the fuck are you even talking about.

> All other things (rep range, rest, diet) being exactly equal
I seriously hope you're not trying to compare a 1rm vs 1 rep of a light weight. No one ever compares rep ranges that way. A strength rep range will not yield better muscle gains than a hypertrophy rep range.

>Steroids literally can make you fat.
You can go sit in the fucking stupid corner.
No I'm serious.
Go on.
Get.

I want you to tell me in your own words how on earth lifting lighter weights will yield equal or superior muscle mass gains to lifting heavy weights.

That is exactly the opposite of what I'm saying. I'm saying benching 180 pounds for 4 sets of 8 will yield superior muscle mass gains than benching the bar for 4 sets of 8

This isn't really even debateable.

Because muscle gains are to an extent determined by volume, not lifting a heavier weight.

This. Steroids will 100% make you gain lots of fat if you aren't lifting like a madman on them.

Even then, you can 100% put on a ton of fat if you massively overeat no matter how much gear you are on.

Steroids are not a injection away from a perfect body. All they do is make you build muscle mass. If you are going several thousand calories over your TDEE you'll still gain plenty of fat.

Strength rep range, all else equal, does not build muscle mass better than hypertrophy. There's countless scientific literature on the subiect.

>I don't know what I'm talking about so let me just shit post words!

Do you think every single anabolic steroid is tren? It's obviously pointless because you are outsing yourself as an idiot, but what do you think for example the hormone testosterone does for the human body? Do you just assume it's a muscle building machine that makes you extremely jacked?

Are you the honestly the fucking people who sit here and recomend that people read the sticky and that they should do a sub shit tier powerlifing program that's ripped off of a superior program that's designed for highschool football players and no one else?

I"m being serious.

No wonder people ignore the sticky and just come here to show off in/gawk at cbt threads and shitpost.

oh my fucking god

this is the most retarded thing i've ever had to respond to

what i am saying, is doing a hypertrophy program using HEAVIER WEIGHT will yield you more muscle mass gains than doing THE EXACT SAME PROGRAM BUT WITH LIGHTER WEIGHT

holy FUCKING shit you are so dense

Show me three anabolic compounds that lead to fat gain.

I'll wait.

Yes they can you fucking retard.Test will totally help you burn fat if you combine it with a reasonable diet (proportional to the exercise you are doing), but they'll also make you hungry af and if you eat too much over TDEE you'll gain tons of fat no matter what your T levels.

Plenty of guys with crazy high natural T end up fat as fuck because they still eat way too much. Why would steroids work any differently?

The most anabolic compound to human beings is insulin and it causes weight gain.

Test makes you hungry
Hungry makes you eat
If you eat too much you gain fat

You can't just eat like a pig because you took T. You still need to eat proportionally to the exercise you're doing.

Why do you think this would be the case? Hypertrophy also builds strength and is subject to linear progress and rate or progress on a strength routine can be wildly different from person to person. No reason to assume starting with a strength routine would be better and you don't have a shred of evidence to back that up. I'm not dense. You're utterly clueless.

Testosterone not only makes you over consume, it also makes you produce estrogen, which makes you fat.

>Why do you think this would be the case?

>>doing a hypertrophy program using HEAVIER WEIGHT will yield you more muscle mass gains than doing THE EXACT SAME PROGRAM BUT WITH LIGHTER WEIGHT

why the FUCK would it NOT be the case???

i'm 100% convinced you're trolling at this point

Using weight that would make doing 8 reps relatively hard is an unstated fact that everyone knows.

That's just how it is.

I honestly have no fucking idea what you're talking about and where you get the "as long as it's this rep range no matter how much weight you lift" thing from.

I really don't.

Did you at one point believe that this was the case?

So what aesthetic program should I switch to after doing SS for 6 months?

Not him but mathematics don't agree with you. Common sense if you ever lifted doesn't agree with you I.e a person doing 3x8-12 plus shitloads of irrelevant accessories will not advance quicker than a 3x5 routine with 1

>Impying strength endurance can't be found in powerlifters.
>powerlifting programs all have major fucking embalances inherent to them.

A fact? Please, point it to me. That wasn't even my picture. I just can't get over how absolutely idiotic you fucking sound. I bet you can't even pull-up a fucking plate. Probably sitting around with a bench of 125% but it's still 2 plates so it's cool, right? LOL.

PPL/PPL is the current go to.

>Why would lifting heavier weights for the same reps as lighter weights yield better results

user are you retarded?

You are implying that I can do jumping jacks to look like Arnold.

I assumed you weren't a complete retard, my mistake. You're either shifting goalposts or explain why you're suddenly comparing a hypertrophy program just using more weight? If you're using more weight you're using less reps. Less reps more weight =/= more muscle gains if both are in hypertrophy range.

> Common sense
opinion discarded
you need to familiarize yourself with the terms strength, hypertrophy and endurance rep ranges. Nobody implied that.

i honestly can't even decipher your post dude

im gonna explain myself very carefully one last time

>controlling for everything, i.e. everything else is the same: programming, diet, rest, hormones, VOLUME (rep ranges) etc., lifting HEAVIER weight will damage muscle more than lifting LIGHTER weight and therefore result in more muscle gains

>therefore, it is best to lift the heaviest weight you can comfortably lift for hypertrophy reps if your goal is aesthetics

>therefore, a strength base is important for a hypertrophy program

that's it. that's what I'm saying, and none of it is wrong and you haven't offered ANY evidence or logic to prove otherwise.

So if you eat normally and take test you will burn fat? Like fucking EVERYONE FUCKING EVER HAS SAID PERIOD!!
I want you to show me three fucking people who say that steroids will make you fucking fat.

Pedantic fuckwad.

So if you don't eat too much...you will lose weight. That's what happens when you take test.
You have to make eating a fucking part time job and do NOTHING ELSE to put on weight with gear.

>>Impying strength endurance can't be found in powerlifters.
Not unless they fucking work for it you fucking moron.
That comes from shit loads of fucking volume. Not a few goddamned max lifts and fuck all else. Not even cardio.
That's fucking major powerlifters.
This isn't even up for debate.

>>powerlifting programs all have major fucking embalances inherent to them.
The powerlifting programs shilled here have MAJOR fucking embalances in them and when people point them out they say YOURE STUPID FOR NOT REALIZING THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE then drop the subject altogether.

>you need to familiarize yourself with the terms strength, hypertrophy and endurance rep ranges.

Except I actually lift weights and you need to familiarize yourself with the concept of bullshit.

Lifting weights makes you grow. You don't lift 1 more rep after 5 and suddenly your muscles explode open. The only things that really matter are volume and intensity. If you work with a decent volume at a decent intensity you will always get bigger and stronger assuming you eat food. Everything else you are saying is irrelevant because it's dumb bullshit implying somehow increasing intensity with the same volume won't yield better results.

really wish people would just read the book before spouting their shit
>hurr wheres the bicep work
what are chinups?

>Pedantic fuckwad

?????????????????????

You said to name an anabolic compound that causes weight gain. Insulin is anabolic. It is not only anabolic, there is not a single more anabolic substance known to man, and it causes weight gain. It quite literally perfectly fits the criteria you set forth. Are you daft?

> lifting HEAVIER weight will damage muscle more than lifting LIGHTER weight and therefore result in more muscle gains
And you're wrong as nobody is talking about lifting a soup can or any other hyperbole you've used as the common vernacular used for comparison is strength vs hypertrophy and strength reps does not build muscle better than hypertrophy reps. Everything past this is your autism.
> a strength base is important for a hypertrophy program
Hypertrophy builds strength. It's not important unless your goal is maximizing strength. Beginners rate of strength growth is wildly variable so it's inaccurate to claim it be generally important to start with building strength and there are other factors that make strength routines poor for beginners.

>OCCASIONALLY DOING A PUSHUP AND A PULLUP WILL GET YOU GAINS WHEN YOURE ON GEAR
desu doing nothing would get you gains on enough gear...

1.A strength base is not important and is something litterally pulled from the ass of some fat fuck retard who has a program to shill

2."controlling for everything else" in this instance means creating some ridiculous and deeply idiotic exercise program that exists solely to prove your deeply stupid assertion correct.

3.Everyone who is anyone in strength trainign and athletics starts with one of two things. Calisthenics or a general bodybuilding type weight lifting program. Period. You're out of your tiny fucking mind if you think otherwise.

Litterally everything you've posted thus far has been stupid. Just fucking stupid.

> The only things that really matter are volume and intensity
And you're wrong. Volume does matter but what matters most is taking those reps to fatigue. Higher intensity =/= bigger muscles than hypertrophy reps.

Common sense is important child you don't even lift similar to the dyel sport pseudoscientists that make studies about force production during bench on a bosu ball.

Just so you know sports science is majority faulty science and they're not using enough sample sizes sample sizes or have faulty methodology now run along with your joke degree

I mean steroids.
We both mean steroids.
This entire thing is about steroids.
You're hiding behind pedantics because you've revealed yourself as a fucking buffoon.

You can go away now. You've lost this fight.
BUH BUH INSULIN IS AN ANABOLIC ME SO CLEVER U SO DUMB
Don't go there.
It's beneath you.
And I'm not going to follow.

That's my point.
When people point out people on even 250mg of test and say "this program works" I laugh at them.
Sitting on their couch and sometimes scratching their ass will get them more gains then a dedicated hard working consistent natural who busts ass every session.
That's a fact.

>strength reps does not build muscle better than hypertrophy reps.

motherfucker, i KNOW that

i KNOW that hypertrophy reps is better for building muscle

i'm saying that hypertrophy reps WITH MORE WEIGHT is better for building muscle than hypertrophy reps WITH LESS WEIGHT

this isn't even up for debate, it's just a fucking fact

>waaah waaah soup can hyperbole

it ILLUSTRATES the point that it's better to bench 225lbsx4x8 than 135lbsx4x8 which is better than 45lbsx4x8 which is better than 2lbsx4x8 etc.

>Hypertrophy builds strength.

not as fast as a linear progression

>It's not important unless your goal is maximizing strength

Maximizing strength SHOULD be your goal for the first three months of your lifting career because it will maximise your aesthetic gains in the longer run. If you spend three months getting your lifts up, the next 21 months you spend lifting for hypertrophy will be done with heavier weight, which results in MORE MUSCLE GAIN than if you spent 24 months lifting for hypertrophy with less weight.

This is me after 2 years of structured training and dieting. Just fucking take steroids. None of you have been lifting for longer than a year and it's obvious. Lifting is a fucking meme, you worthless, naive incel.

user.
Let me stop you there.

Even with that strength base you keep fucktarding on about in place.
You won't have the sheer work capacity required to exploit it.

You'll have to drop your max down very low to get there and you'll essentially be playing catch up.

Fierce 5 beginner routine is good.

>1.A strength base is not important

This is wrong unless you believe that lifting the bar will get you more muscle than lifting heavy weight. And if you do you're a retard

You accuse the idea (strength base being important) of being "pulled from the ass of some retard" but you pull the opposite idea (strength base not mattering) out of your own ass and furthermore your idea isn't even supported by common sense (more weight = more gains)

>2."controlling for everything else" in this instance means creating some ridiculous and deeply idiotic exercise program that exists solely to prove your deeply stupid assertion correct.

You stupid dense mother fucker. The only reason I said that was because I mentioned lifting more weight results in more gains than lifting less weight and some retard took it to mean I was saying strength programs result in more muscle gain than hypertrophy programs, which was not what I was saying.

>3.Everyone who is anyone in strength trainign and athletics starts with one of two things. Calisthenics or a general bodybuilding type weight lifting program.

"b-but jeff seid never did SS and look at him!"

If you have a goal body in mind and you have a similar frame and genetics to that person and you copy their routine and it works for you, that's great.

But if you're a newbie who comes to Veeky Forums and asks the simple question of "what program should I do to look better" the answer is generally do SS until you are strong and then do a hypertrophy program for 1.5-2 years.