Why does Ceaser get talked about all the time

Caesar was transformational in a way that Sulla wasn't. While both seized absolute power, Sulla used his merely to implement some reforms that attempted to hold together the republic, while completely ignoring all the problems that had led to massive civil war in the first place. It's no surprise that civil war resumed after his death.

Caesar recognized that the republic, as it then existed, could not stand, and his reforms arguably started Rome towards the imperial path (which Augustus then finished in his own way). This is why future emperors were known as Caesar/Augustus and not Sulla.

because Augustus is basically Sulla, but better in every way

Because Caesar became a title and therefore even people who have no clue about roman history still know his name 2000+ years after he died. Sulla came and went. Caesar came to stay forever.

the third founder of Rome and 7 time consul >Salty Sulla

>When, that is, he was quite young and living in the country, he had caught in his cloak a falling eagle's nest, which had seven young ones in it; at sight of this, his parents were amazed, and made enquiries of the seers, who told them that their son would be most illustrious of men, and was destined to receive the highest command and power seven times.

Because after Sulla died everyone ignored his laws. Pompey demanded to be consul when he wasn't even eligible and the senate agreed because they were scared of Sulla and people like him. Sulla is a joke.

What would you like to talk about regarding Lucius Cornelius?

>deified after his death and to this day the most notable figure from the ancient world
>literally only remembered for being a tyrannical murderer by roman historians and literal who to most people today
wow sulla sure showed them

He’s remembered for setting the precedent which helped Gaius Julius Ceaser get into power faggot.

Gaius was a queer

Yeah but people remember him, unlike Sulla.

Why do you care who normies remember? Anyone that knows anything about Roman history knows who Sulla was.

despite all you say, sulla's political project failed and caesar's succeeded, mostly because his adopted son claimed his legacy and reworked it into a permanent political settlement. Sulla's system fell apart within a decade

Because when something is broken you don't break it some more and then call it fixed

Sulla was based. He took no shit from anyone. When Marius tried to steal his command, he marched into Rome, seized power and slaughtered everyone.

I respect Sulla more than Marius, but man, fuck people who support the senate.

So you hate the senate but respect an optimate who despised the common folk and made laws to ensure the senate would have absolute power?

When Sulla told Pompey to divorce his wife and marry his already pregnant step-daughter, Pompey did it without questioning.

When Sulla ordered Caesar to divorce his wife and marry one of his own. Caesar told him to fuck off and fled Rome, fearing for his life.

Would you agree that Sulla had more honor, especially in the later days?

It's complicated. I admit that Marius and Cinna started the conflict but Sulla's actions were way out of line. I'm still confused about him stepping down as dictator though. I can't wrap my head around it.

Shakespeare didn't write a play about Sulla.

i blame asterix

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It says something about his character that he had absolute power, and then gave it up.. just like good old Cincinnatus.

>He gave up power after killing half the city
What a hero

Normies only remember Caesar because a salad is named after him.

>Marius and his mob kill all your friends and allies
>Go to rome and punish the murderers
>Somehow you are the bad guy
Pleb please.

MUH 7TH CONSULSHIP

literally the only people who defend marius post insanity are berniebros who think that because Sulla was conservative he has to have been the bad guy

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>Noble reformer Marius drowns the city in blood - nobody remembers because lol dead plebs who cares
>Mean conservative Sulla proscribes a bunch of knights and senators - history's greatest monster

Seems fair.

>Marius forces Senate to give him the command for the Mithridatic War, which was originally granted to Sulla.
>Sulla gets pissed and marched into Rome, and slaughters Marius supporters, Marius himself flees Italy.
>After everything was back in order. Sulla goes East to fight Mithridatic War,
>Marius uses Sulla's absense as an opportunity to invade Rome, and kill all Sulla's supporters.
>Marius died couple of weeks later of Natural causes.
>Sulla gets really pissed and marched into Rome again, and genocide all Pro-Marius supporters, and took away their properties.

Sulla gave Italians roman citizenship. He literally was Obama.

giving italians citizenship was a smart decision though

Ceasar had more of an effect on the empire, while Sulla tried to restore.

Also ceasar has far more redeeming features (which we all know), where as Sulla tragically fell so far with his murderous gangs and his skin condition depriving him of his lauded beauty and hair

Also who would you rather have dinner with (this would make a good thread)

Marius
Ceasar
Sulla

I think ceasar is the obvious choice as the other ended up bordering on insane,

And because his name is synonymous with absolute power, to the point where empires nearly two thousand years after his death still called their leaders some variation of Caesar.

Because Sulla was an Anti-Samnite

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Sulla vs Marius

Who would have won that final showdown?

Marius.

>slaughtered everyone
this isn't "based" retard. it's bad politics to slaughter your opponents and place your cronies in control while your remaining enemies have been made so embittered by your seizure of their wealth and property that within the decade they destroy your political system. Sulla was either not acting in good faith, was engaging in wishful thinking in the extreme or was a brainlet to think that a political settlement could last after the atrocities he committed.

the problem was that sulla's proscriptions were wildly disproportionate to the violence that came before. all previous civil conflicts targeted small amounts of supporters, Sulla distinguished himself by the magnitude, brutality and most importantly the ARBITRARINESS of his killings. People who has few ties to marius were killed, people who had scores with a sulla supporter were added to the list and killed, people whose property sulla supporters envied were killed. Fuck you for defending Sulla as a conservative. His rule and legacy was built on killing innocents and rewarding the spoils of the dead to his supporters.

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Good will was dead long before Sulla marched on Rome, the only (though futile) hope for a period of stability was a convincing victory for one side.

apparently it didn't work well enough. it brought a decade of peace but kicked the can of civil conflict down the road.

But it's not. The salad is named after the chef who created it.

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how did (((they))) do it?

Crassus used to sneak in at night and add people's names to the proscription list .Some of them weren't even Sullla's enemies. Crassus just wanted their properties.

This story was literally invented by his political spin team for his later consul campaigns.

Yet this same user will defend Caesar's transgressions in Gaul as some virtuous Roman version of manifest destiny. Sulla, just as Caesar, was a man of his times and one of the few with the wherewithal to stymie his opposition.

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He was a traditionalist it's not an autistic thing to try and recreate a time when things were better.

What's there talk about with Sulla? His shortsighted and desperate attempts to save the Republic doomed it and did nothing but open a path for the very people he hated to come in and do the very thing he hated by showing them that it could be done in the first place, to say nothing of the fact the Roman Republic had been a decrepit husk of itself going back to the defeat of Hannibal. He's a failure.

WHY did Sulla spare Ceaser?

Because Caesar had friends and family sticking out for him. Remember that Sulla didn't dare touch Marius' wife Julia who was Caesar's aunt

Because Caesar's mother had powerful friends amongst Sulla's supporters. They begged Sulla to spare Caesar.

Sulla saw Marius who was the alpha to Sulla's beta in Caesar and was too scared of Marius' memory to touch Caesar

Also Caesar was a nobody at the time, from a politically insignificant Patrician family. Sulla probably didn't consider him a threat.

>Yet this same user will defend Caesar's transgressions in Gaul as some virtuous Roman version of manifest destiny.
strawman as fuck. I never said that. I'm talking entirely about the internal affairs of the republic and legacies

Except Sulla said that in Caesar he saw many a Marius. Caesar also refused to divorce Cinna's daughter.

did he really say that though?

>Sulla is quaestor in bumfuck Numidia.
>Rome currently is fighting it's 'nam there.
>Sulla goes full commando and manages tgo capture the enemy leader, Jughurta with a handful of his Soldiers.
>Gets a nice commendation while buttboy "MUH SEVEN CONSULSHIPS" Marius gets all the credit for ending the war.
>Distinguishes himself in the war against the Cimbri and Teutons, a war that forced Marius to finally codify and formally adopt a professionell army.
>Sack Rome the first time, exile Marius and get consul so you can beat the great beast in the east, Mithridates.
>Mithridates conquered everything in Asia (the province) up to macedonia and greece with little effort.
>Roman Legions in the East get shoved aroudn like preschoolers.
>beat the shit out of Mithridates, finally burn the eternal Athenian menace and bring order to the east.
>Mithridates niggerpator is on his last leg, prepares to finish him.
>Fuck, marius is back.
>makes shitty peace with Mithridates and returns to rome.
>Crushes uunruly niggers and solves the Samnite Question.
>Gets the job of dictator but retires when everything is sorted out.
>Die after fucking every young girl he got his hands on as "Sulla Felix".

I'm sorry man, but you're full of shit. Sulla did nothing wrong.

Oi Juilius!

good post

>mithridates niggerpator
>niggerpator

>youtu.be/_IO_Ldn2H4o
>tl;dr caesar was based

>fucking every young girl (male)

And I'm saying that if one applies "morals" from a 2nd century BC Roman as a lens through which to view Sulla, he is not different from Marius who is not different from Caesar who is not different from Augustus. This image of a bloodthirsty tyrant people are peddling in this thread was just not a common view. People like yourself in this thread are just falling for the historian's fallacy.

It should be noted that when Sulla died, his funeral procession was larger than Caesar's and Caesar was only deified because of his relatives seizing the "office" of Princeps.

Not him, but
>bloodthirsty tyrant... uncommon view
Wtf are you talking about? Virtually every historian agrees that Sulla’s proscriptions were a disaster which normalized Roman on Roman violence and did irreparable harm to the Roman system, gimping the popular assemblies and the tribune of the plebeians and basically giving the aristocrats free reign to loot and pillage the economy to their heart’s content.

Yes, Iron Age societies were built on conquest so they already were kleptocratic states... Sulla just began the process of letting aristocrats rob their own countrymen blind without political recourse. In other words, he made Caesar necessary.

> his funeral procession was larger than Caesar's
That doesn’t really come as a surprise, considering that Sulla was a status quo darling beloved by the aristocracy while Caesar was viewed as a democracy usurping tyrant loved only by the common rabble, soldiers, urban literati, basically everyone who wasn’t a powerful property owner.

>tries to wipe out the Julia clan
>basically goes against plebeians and the commoners of Rome just because he wants the optimates and equastrians to suck his dick more
>proscriptions up the ass
>literally every single contemporary and post Social Wars Roman historian and writer shits on him universally
Sulla is a fag and will never be one-tenth the man Caesar or Marius were.

Idk about you guys but I like the name “Sulla”

marian detected.

Optimate cuck detected.

>bloodthirsty tyrant
I never said he was. His proscriptions enabled his bloodthirsty and greedy underlings to chimp out though, even if that wasn't his original intention.

>he is not different from Marius
I already told you why he is. His killings were a magnitude greater, vindictive and divisive. I give you that Augustus' and Antony's proscriptions were also awful.

>Refering to a man by his cognomen
Truly barbarous times we live in.

>Caesar was viewed as a democracy usurping tyrant loved only by common rabble, soldiers, urban literati, basically everyone who wasn't a powerful property owner

Methinks thou hast seen one too many stories of Caesar with shakespearian influence. Much of the portrayal as Caesar being beloved by all the non-aristocrats was yarn spun by hos hype man Antony and Augustan-era propagandizing that took place decades after his death. He was the first deified living Roman though so I can't take that away from him.

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He ended his life getting sucked off by his wife and gay twink boyfriend simultaneously in his villa.

Caesar ended his in a bloody heap on the senate floor.

Easy choice for me (but no homo)

Yup, the only mistake was not doing it sooner

Ending as a degenerate loser whose hated by everyone in Roman history isn't much like winning to me but getting stabbed to death while being such a chad like Caesar is more glorious.
>even thousands of years later, Marius' legacy through Caesar and Augustus survived to the end of the Eastern Roman Empire's fall with its last emperor still having the titles of Caesar and Augustus on him
GOAT

>hated by everyone in Roman history

I wish people actually bothered to read history rather than project their opinions onto it.

You are really stupid. No surprise Sullafags are basically the Trump-tier brainlets of our times, blind to reality.

What a well-constructed counterpoint you made. Sulla has a mixed legacy and, surprise surprise, so does Caesar. Much of the Caesar adoration ingrained in imperial Roman culture has to do with Antony and Augustus propping up his image and the latter peddling propaganda about some vague divine right during his reign. If you read the source material and were intimate with the context in which those historians wrote you would understand this.

>mixed legacy
>is the reason why the common people have trusted the Senate and Equestrian classes less and less because of blood thirsty cunts like Sulla
Sure thing dude.
>muh propaganda
Keep telling yourself that.

>>literally every single contemporary and post Social Wars Roman historian and writer shits on him universally

literal fake news

>muh

Yet another beautiful rebuttal. Why don't you read up on historical views of Caesar. Maybe you'll learn a thing or two.

reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3jhyl2/ive_seen_julius_caesar_reffered_to_as_a_villain/cupnvuw

Inb4 >reddit

>fake news
Kill yourself.
>reddit linking
>unironically
Doubly to you as well.

>Marius steals Sulla’s command behind his back like a pussy
>runs with his tail between his legs when Sulla marches back
>Marius was alpha bro

You are a pleb retard

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PREDICTABO

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>Marius rapes Germanics and virtually genocides three tribes after a record number of Roman losses and defeats in Central Europe and near Italy
>Sulla's best claim to fame is being a faggot and tyrant who beat up a weaked Mithridates who was never a threat directly to Rome itself
Try harder m8

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>I'm going to ignore the fact that I got called out on my bullshit and green text even harder with hyperbole that is not related to my original bullshit claims.

DOUBLE REPPUKEK

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TOP.KEK.

have a

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