Mesoamerican Thread

Old thread will die soon, here's a new one.

Bernal Diaz Del Castillo wrote about the moments leading up to the death of Emperor Montezuma:

>In this moment of danger Cortes determined that Motecusuma should address the infuriated multitude from the top of the building, and desire them to stay hostilities, as we had determined to leave the city. When this offer was made known to Motecusuma in the name of Cortes, he is said to have exclaimed, in the height of grief, "Why does Malinche now turn to me ?—to me, who am tired of life, and who could wish never again to hear his name mentioned, for it is he who has plunged me into all this misery!" Motecusuma obstinately refused to comply with Cortes' request, and is said to have further exclaimed, "I will neither see nor hear anything more of this man. I put no longer any faith in his deceitful words, his promises, and his specious lies."

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Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=rDvN7-Eec-0
youtube.com/watch?v=84Ng41hvgx8
youtube.com/watch?v=oNvQrqp2dmI
youtube.com/watch?v=j9qkAe8QAKI
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youtube.com/watch?v=JpMbDyK7dXo
youtube.com/watch?v=AwMcbLAWsSw
youtube.com/watch?v=kE8BNer2H3k
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cart
youtube.com/watch?v=TZkFvCoSnug
youtube.com/watch?v=CRsUuejdHeE
cdmbuntu.lib.utah.edu/cdm/ref/collection/upcat/id/1462
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinametzin
youtube.com/watch?v=yLZqSVs-1DI
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inca_mythology
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

>Upon this father Olmedo and Oli went and spoke to him in the most affectionate terms, to persuade him to alter his determination. "Alas!" replied the monarch, "for all this, it is now too late, I am convinced that the Mexicans, whatever my wishes might be, will not grant any cessation of arms. They have already raised another cazique to the throne, and are fully determined that none of you shall leave this place alive. For myself, I am convinced you will every one of you meet with your death in this city." In the end, however, Motecusuma was prevailed upon to accompany them. Under cover of a strong division of our troops he advanced to the battlements of our quarters, and began to address the Mexicans in the most affectionate manner, desiring them to put a stop to their hostilities, for the teules ("gods") were going to leave the city.

>The instant the Mexican generals recognized their king they ordered their men to cease firing. Four of them advanced to a spot where they could easily discourse with the monarch; and thus, with tears in their eyes, they addressed him: "Alas! great king, your own misfortune, and that of your children and your relatives, afflicts us sorely. But we dare not hide from you that we have raised one of your cousins to the throne of this country." Here they named the new monarch. It was the king of Iztapalapan, Cuitlahuatzin, and not Quauhtemoctzin, for he did not ascend the throne until two months after. "They were forced," continued they, "to prosecute the war, for they had promised their gods to do so, and had sworn to them not to desist until every one of the teules was killed. They had daily in vain prayed to their gods Huitzilopochtli and Tetzcatlipuca to deliver him out of the enemy's power, and they would hold him in greater veneration than before; and they hoped he would pardon their present conduct."

>Several of our men had covered Motecusuma with their shields while he was addressing the enemy; but as the attack was now momentarily suspended, they were not so very particular in shielding his person. Unfortunately, the hostilities immediately again commenced, and before it could be prevented he was struck by an arrow, and three stones from a sling, by which he was wounded in the arm, leg, and in his head; so that the unhappy monarch was forced to be carried back to his apartment. We were immediately going to bandage up his wounds, and begged of him to take something strengthening; but he refused everything, and, contrary to all expectation, we soon heard that he had expired. Cortes, his officers, and all of us, shed tears for this unfortunate monarch; indeed many of our men, who had been inconstant attendance on him, mourned for him as if they had lost a parent. Even father Olmedo himself, who never for a moment left his side, and who, notwithstanding all his efforts, had not been able to convert him to Christianity, could not refrain from shedding tears. And no one will feel surprised at this who knew what a very kind-hearted person Motecusuma was.

It's unknown if Montezuma actually died from his wounds, or if he was killed by the Conquistadors, who quickly realized that the emperor was no longer useful as a hostage.

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Reposting stuff from the old thread

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Gonna post some stuff from the art thread too

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I've always wondered if the guy who made these uses this site. He used to be active on other forums.

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This is one of my favorite images in the series

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...

My bad

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Done for now

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bump

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Bump

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>Old thread will die soon

I was going to make a new one using the same OP image as the old one to keep the visual consistency as I continued my dump, since I finished the posts for the rest of the history dump last night, but oh well

paleomanjim? isn't he pretty old? I wouldn't think he would. That being saiid, I can't find his stuff on other fourms, mind posting links?

This is Quetzalcaotl, say something nice to him.

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Please come back

By all means, continue posting. I didn't have the time to read through everything you said in the last thread, but I definitely appreciated the detail that you put into it.

It was at least a couple of years ago so I don't honestly remember when I found that forum. The posts on that particular thread were practically ancient, at least 5 or 6 years old at that point. I remember someone posting a series of images of paleomanjims macuahuitl's, and the poster talked about it as though he made them. It might have been a board on paleoplanet, but I don't know any more information than that. If he can use youtube, it wouldn't surprise me that he could use a forum.

I'll continue in a little while

>it wouldn't surprise me that he could use a forum.

He has, I was saying I can't find where the fourm I saw him posting his stuff was

Self bump

hey cortezalcaotl, nice boat

Actually, Veeky Forums's bump limit is more than 300, that other thread is still going strong. But hey, these Mesoamerica threads have been a real treat and not just pretentious reject threads from /pol/ so the mods probably won't mind.

What's the bump limit on Veeky Forums tthen?

Last I knew was 310.

Well Moctezuma was not alone, and it is to note that the conquistadores killed the kings of the other cities that same day when they were moored.

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bump/hump

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Looks like some dick grabbers in the upper right corner. What’s with that?

I want to go to Mexico for the first time this December. I want to go to a pyramid that you can still walk to the top. I want the feelings.Staying on the Mayan Coast. No bullshit, for real. Any comments,suggestions? Thanks

Which side of the Yucatan?

Alright, so: I'm the user who was doing the Mesoamerican history posts in the last thread starting here: and ending here: I finished that overview of Mesoamerican history from the foundation of the first Olmec city in 1400 BC, to the fall of the last Maya city state to the conquistadors in 1697 AD (taking me 31 posts, including my recommendations for sources/resources in the last one), but I never got around to answering OP's second question of how Mesoamerican cultures compare to Old World ones, which I'll be doing in here via a second dump (though I am heading to bed soon for tonight)

I don't know enough specific info about old world cultures to give specific comparisons, so people will have to draw their own conclusions, but I will be making general coomparsions when I can.

I plan on detailing the following, primarily using the Aztecs as my main example since I know the most about them, though I'll touch on other mesoamerican cultures as well when I can.

>Metallurgy
>Maritime/Watercraft
>Political/Government complexity
>Military complexity and armnants
>Economy and Class systems
>Mathematics and Astronomy
>Education and the Arts
>Engineering and Hydraluics
>Sanitation and Medicine
>Cities and population densities

Though I might shift shit around a bit to seguue a bit better. I also already did the first 3 in a prior thread, but I want to make some changes so I'll be editing and posting them again rather then just linking to them. Also i'm not worried about the bump limit here (yet, at least) so please feel free to ask questions as I dump

1/?

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Go to Quintana Roo, visit Tulum and Coba.

In Mexico you'll get the best deal with Uxmal and Ek Balam in Yucatan, Coba in Quintana Roo or Calakmul in Campeche. Forget Chichen Itza as you're not allowed to climb any structure there.

youtube.com/watch?v=rDvN7-Eec-0
youtube.com/watch?v=84Ng41hvgx8
youtube.com/watch?v=oNvQrqp2dmI
youtube.com/watch?v=j9qkAe8QAKI

If you want to see the best stuff then go to Peten in Guatemala, especially Tikal because its the biggest city, it's accessible and you'll be able to climb Temple II, IV and Mundo Perdido, the acropolis is amazing as well, the site opens from 6am till 6pm, which isn't enough to see everything but you'll have most stuff covered, also Yaxha where you can see the lake from the tallest pyramid

youtube.com/watch?v=FS1PX3WwMgI
youtube.com/watch?v=JpMbDyK7dXo

If you're into jungle trekking the biggest maya pyramid is La Danta in El Mirador and the second biggest is called El Tigre which you'll also be able to climb, it's a 5 day trip

youtube.com/watch?v=AwMcbLAWsSw

also a lot of cool info about El Mirador

youtube.com/watch?v=kE8BNer2H3k

Yaxchilan and Palenque are mandatory to see as well.

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what book?

For those interested I'll be releasing a new set pretty soon.

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Arqueologia Mexicana, don't remember the issue but it's a special about clothing, 'Vestimenta'

>never invented the wheelbarrow

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They had no need for it.

Correct. As we both know, ancient people in Mesoamerica never had to move heavy loads over relatively even ground.
OP's pic is just demonstrating an ancient workout routine.

you should definitely visit merida if you can. you can watch the mayan ball game and visit some archeological zones in the area you can climb

That's what canoes are for.

>moving a heavy load over even GROUND
>with a canoe
Ah, I see. They used all the human sacrifices to create rivers of blood for easy transport of goods. Very clever.

No most trade was conducted via canoe. Due to the rainy and dry season, floods were common, not to mention they were surrounded by ocean on two sides, had rivers and lakes everywhere too.

>trade
I see you are intentionally being obtuse.
Moving shit with a wheeled cart is useful for anyone that has some heavy shit to move. Let's say you have 100kg of wood or some shit that you wish to move from your place to a place upstream from your current location, or perhaps your current distance from the water is only slightly shorter than your distance to your destination. You do not have a mule.
How do you accomplish that without making multiple trips?
I have provided a hint in my image if you are stumped.

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Wheelbarrows weren't invented in the Old World till 0ad in china, m8.

As obvious as an idea it may seem, it took the Old World 6000 years after it's first civilizations to male it, and the Mesoamericans had only had civilization around for 3000. Plus, purely wooden carts are kind of shit. Without metal nails or wheel rims (as in, metal on the edge of the wheel on the point of contact with the ground: wooden wheels split a lot) or the like, they tend to fall apart.

And both the Andes and Mesoamerica have bad terrains for this shit: the Andes sre a literal series of mountains bordered by dense jungle, and Mespamerica is hills, mountains, and valleys to the north/west and jungles to the south/east.

They HAD wheels: they used them in toys, siege towers, and for pottery. They just clearly didnt have the material, bessts of burden, or terrain to have it be that effective.

Seems the Indus River Civilizations had wheelbarrows by any other name 3500-5500 years ago, sorry m8.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cart

Are these figures female? The museum doesn't say their gender.

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Cont:

>Metallurgy

Contrary to popular belief, Mesoamerica did work metal. The fact that Conquistadors were after gold is common knowledge, so it should be obvious that they smelted metals, really.

Metallurgy was first developed in the Classical period, around 600 AD, likely with some cultural interchange from Central and South America (more on this later) and mainly consisted of copper, gold, and silver metallurgy. Around 1200ad, you see more complex metallurgy, with alloys becoming a thing (mainlt, and more advanced smelting and craft techniques, and metalworking becomes more common in general; with Western mesoamerica, Michoacan in particular, being at the forefront of cutting edge metallurgy (there was alsoo another metallurgical innovation hotspot in the maya region in the classic where central american techniuqes were coming upt to)

Anyways, a key thing to understand about metal use in Mesoamerica is that they placed a much higher value on metals religiously and aesthetically then functionally. Gold was seen as droppings from the sun, For the tin and arsenical bronze objects they had, there was a WAY higher percentage of those that would be needed to achive the mechanical properties of bronze, for instance, and was rather did to achieve certain color tones or even certain sounds when jangled rather then mechanical properties: So religious paraphernalia, jewelry, and the like was the most common usage (lost wax cast bells were popular). This also partially explains the relative (but not entire, more on that later) lack of metal tools: why would they "waste" a divine material on tools that would break and get worn?

2/?


Not him, but was wondering something similar, thanks

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>According to some scientists agriculture was widespread in the Indian peninsula, 10000–3000 years ago, well beyond the fertile plains of the north. For example, one study reports 12 sites in the southern Indian states of Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka providing clear evidence of agriculture of pulses (Vigna radiata and Macrotyloma uniflorum), millet-grasses (Brachiaria ramosa and Setaria verticillata), wheats (Triticum dicoccum, Triticum durum/aestivum), barley (Hordeum vulgare), hyacinth bean (Lablab purpureus), pearl millet (Pennisetum glaucum), finger millet (Eleusine coracana), cotton (Gossypium sp.), linseed (Linum sp.), as well as gathered fruits of Ziziphus and two Cucurbitaceae.[23][24]

>Some claim Indian agriculture began by 9000 BC as a result of early cultivation of plants, and domestication of crops and animals.[25] Settled life soon followed with implements and techniques being developed for agriculture.[26][27] Double monsoons led to two harvests being reaped in one year.[28] Indian products soon reached trading networks and foreign crops were introduced.[28][29] Plants and animals—considered essential to survival by the Indians—came to be worshiped and venerated.[25]
M8, mesoamerican consumption of proto-crops started circa 7000BC, and its cultivation (neolithic revolution) happened circa 3000BC.

How many years did those cart inventors spent having agriculture?

Cont:

So how advanced exactly were their alloying, smelting, and other metallurgical techniques? I don't into the subject that much, but I can tell there was some pretty damn involved, multi stage processes they used.

On the siimple side of things, prill extraction was mostly used to obtain copper from ore, placiing it in a open furnace and with multiple blowers, which would result in tiny copper beads.

On the more complex side, The Florentine Codex has a pretty detailed overview of an lost wax process for making metal products. reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/487of5/how_did_the_aztecs_manage_to_create_beautiful/ (I know, >reddit, but Askhistorians is a great resource for info on Mesoamerica) has a great post on this. To summarize, though:

Charcoal was mixed in with clay, and thiis was made into flat cakes, left to dry, and these hardened, at which point it was carved into a scupture. Beeswax was melted, mixed with copal, and strained and hardened. It was then also rolled and flattened. This was then placed on the clay sclpture, so that it would seep into crevices and fill impressions. Another dusting of charcoal was placed onto it, and then that was covered in another coarser clay-charcoal mixture and set to dry. A channel was affixed to it, and molten gold would be poured in. It was then placed into a crucible. After it had been cast, it was removed and covered in a chemical mixture meant to bring out specific color, and then reheated, and this was repeated a few times. The gold product was then polished. Gold-beaters polish and smooth itt, and and used flint knives to trace out designs and make relief work.

The post also notes that this was how goldworkers did it in the past, and notes a newer method, which includes using a copper-silver mixture as a solder, but i'm unclear if the newer method is post-contact or not

3/?

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>animeposter
>retarded
Checks out

You can do Tulum and Coba on one day, they're close to each other, Tulum you can't climb but it's right on the cliffs and the sea below so it's well worth it

Some advise about Mayan knowledge in Mexico, and specially in the Riviera: Take everything you hear or see about the mayan with a grain of salt, there's so much misinformation it's offensive

As an example I'll leave you a couple of Mayan dances here, one of them is based on a mayan religious dance that is still performed, the other one's for show

youtube.com/watch?v=TZkFvCoSnug

youtube.com/watch?v=CRsUuejdHeE

Cont:

That said, there wasn't NO metal tools: Domestic ones such as fishhooks, knives, tweezers, adzes/celts (I think, these may have just been ceremonial) , as well as Axe Monies for currency were were made of copper and bronze. There's some reports of copper/bronze arrowheads and axe-heads, but people who know more then me say these aren't supported, and that the axheads are misunderstood from the above celts/axe monies. It does come up enough that I wonder, though

Anyways: if they used it for some tools, why not the jump to widespread use and weapons, besides the religious issue (since they did use some tools?)

Well, even the Spanish mostly abandoned their steel armor for native armor due to the climate, so obviously that would have an effect on it's development here, with the heat + humidity. Plus, armor would have taken a lot of metal per armor piece to make, making it even less likely to be experimented with, especially in the climate, as I mentioned. And without anybody using metal armor, there's not really a reason to make metal weapons: Obsidian is actually SHARPER then metal, it's only more brittle, which is only an issue against metal. I also have a personal theory, no clue if researchers would agree, that is that since the lack of beasts of burden meant so all supplies on military campaigns needed to be carried by hand. Lighter, easier to repair and replace materials like obsidian and wood would have been preferable

So the religious value, the climate, lack of horses, and then the chicken and the issue of not needing metal weapons without metal armor makes a postive feedback loop

Overall, I guess calling the region "Chalcolithic", like the fertile crescent was it was transitioning into the bronze isn't really inaccurate, though it's somewhat misleading since the two regions wrre fundemtnally using metals for different reasons and, as you'll see, mesoamerica was at, or well beyond bronze age level in other ways

4/?

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The dance looks a bit too 'azteca danzante'. They even play the drums with sticks like they do, which is not accurate at all. To my knowledge only the horizontal slit drum used sticks.

Watt culture is this from?

West Mexico - Colima.

Comparisons between Bronze age and Postclassic Mesoamerica.

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What book?

Mesoamerican Postclassic World edited by Elzabeth Boone and Michael E Smith

This?

cdmbuntu.lib.utah.edu/cdm/ref/collection/upcat/id/1462

It only lists Elizabeth boone for some chapters, not the whole thing

They're the editors as I said. Each chapter is written by it's own specialist.

But that's the book?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinametzin
>construction of the pyramid of Cholula and the City of Teotihuacan

youtube.com/watch?v=yLZqSVs-1DI

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inca_mythology
>In one legend, Unu Pachakuti was a great flood sent by Virachocha to destroy the giants that built Tiwanaku.

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Oh wait youre right. Idk where I elizabeth Boone from lol. But yea it's that book. I recommend it.

Cont:

>Maritime and Watercraft

The most common watercraft in Mesoamerica was a dug-out canoe, and were paddle powered. The region never developed the sail. Rafts were sometimes used to carry larger objects, but canoes were the most common. Most were small, holding a few people, but there were larger, more complex ones capable of holding 50+ people that show some complex traits such as awnings, raised bows and sterns, and row locking mechanisms. I'm unclear of boats built out of multiple trees, such as out of planks were used or not. I think i recall reading about an example, though?

Despite their relatiively primitive boating technology, that's not to say that they didn't do much travel over the water: The maya had a rather extensive coastal trading network, that also extended into inland rivers, I wish this is something I knew more about, but essentially the Maya had ports on coastal cities such as Tulum, and vessels would travel along the coast of the Yucatan to transport goods around. These goods would then be traded over inland land trade routes (many of which had roads, or inside heavily populated areas such as the recent megalopolis around tikal, via stone causeways), or via river networks. In fact, there were some coastal sites that weren't even really cities or towns, but were just strategic ports due to being river mouths that fed into the river systems that would connect to key cities. This was so extensive that populations even far, far inland that would never see the oceans in their lives have produced detailed artwork of sharks

This trading network, in fact, extended outside of the Yucatan and into central america, as there's eviidence of goldwork and jade with coasta rican and ecuadorian origins that would been unlikely to come up via land routes, as well as upwards into the Caribbean: There was some trade with the Taino.

5/?

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