Routine Thread

any form of rows definitely helps with overall thickness for the entire back, backwards flies are also great for bringing out that pump feeling.

using this for powerlifting from here:

diogn.es/u/163

Monday
Squat 3x5
Incline Bench 3x8
Seated Rows 3x8
Lateral Raises 3x10
Lat Pulldowns 3x10
Hammer Curls 3x10

Wednesday
Deadlift 1x5
OHP 3x5
Pullups 3x8
EZ Bar Curl 3x10
Skullcrushers 3x10
Calf Raises 3x10

Friday
Bench 3x5
Front Squat 3x8
Barbell Rows 3x8
Leg Curl 3x10
Tricep Pushdown 3x10
Shrugs 3x10

Any advice I was running UL for a long time ,I'm now running:
Monday:Upper strength
Tuesday:Lower
Wednesday:push with focus on delts
Thursday:Pull
Friday:Legs with some side delt
I do abs like 3/4 times a week
I do compounds lifts every day of the week

none of it matters if you're ugly

bastardised TM
>no bench, press instead
>instead of 1x5 on heavy days, do 3,2,1 reps with 3RM weight

What routine do you recommend, when I'm able to lift only 2 times a week? Should I stick with SL? I used to go 3 times, but now I play volleyball on almost competitive level once a week, so I'm too tired to go lift afterwards.

Routine in pic.
Needless to say, skipping lower body completely is insanity. You have to include something.
Start your routine with the compounds, when you have more energy. I'd put dips and face pulls in there.
Pretty good all around, maybe I'd add delts on Fridays too, but it's preference.

reminder to instead of doing 3x10 everytime like a mong cycle 3x12 then 4x10 and then 5x8 everytime

add weight after a cycle

Can someone recomendme a full body routine for a woman? I am at nothing to convince my gf to start lifting with me. My idea at first was to make her do SS, SL or something like that but maybe I can make her do something more specialiced. She wants to lose fat, I want a cute bubble butt to grab and eat all night long.

Well, what can I make her do?

Also, neither of us want to spend 3 hours in the gym nor 6 days per week so no split pls.

Stronglifts 5x5 is fucking stupid.
You don't need to do 5x5, you'll make the same or better progress doing 3x5.
Greyskull lp, canditos linear program, or Greg cuckols beginner programs are better. I don't understand how this 5x5 stronglifts faggotry got so popular, every single person that I've seen doing that program is weak as fuck and stalls very early.

r8 my leg day

High Bar Squat 3x5
Front Squat 3x5
Power Cleans 5x3
Leg Press 4x5
RDL 4x5
Back Extensions 4x8
Hanging Leg Raises 4x12

Do this twice a week and deadlift once in which case I only do the front squats and accessories. I wanted to do front squats more often so I dropped a couple back sets for them. Not sure how best to program deadlift accessories, I know the wisdom is to only deadlift heavy once a week but what about rack pulls, deficits, speed work etc? My dl is plateuing right now.

Read
And do yourself a favour, don't waste time doing Texas method.

That must take like 4 hours unless you're literally using bitch boy weights.
How much weight have you added onto your squat since you started doing that?

My girl has been doing the following routine with great butt gains. Might be too much volume for a true novice, so you want to start with really light weights:

Warm-up: bodyweight only
Leg curl 1x20
Single leg gluteus bridge 1x20
Cable kickback 1x20

A:
Squat 5x5
OHP 3x5
Pull-down 3x5
Good morning 4x10
Hip thrust 4x10
Cable kickback 7x7
Hip abduction (machine) 7x7

3x5 and 5x5 work is done focusing on intensity, every thing else is done focusing on getting all clean reps, loads are kept low. Warm up is very important for building mind muscle connection with the glutes, in order to avoid the overriding by the lower back muscles or hamstrings. Btw, teach her how to breathe in and out for lifting.

30-40 minutes for squats another 15-20 for cleans. I superset the accessory lifts so thats another 20-30 minutes altogether maybe.

I only started front squatting last week. But running basically the same program at least 30kg, a little less than 5 a week.

Whats in day "B"?

also:
>breathing out while lifting
Nigga wat

You're a novice?

Starting this today

jimwendler.com/blogs/jimwendler-com/101078918-building-the-monolith-5-3-1-for-size

Probably going to switch up to PHAT or PHUL once I finish my home gym by early 2018

No idea if this is too much volume but I'm only on the 4th week on it(deload week too) so I'll see how this goes in terms of volume, if it's too much or not but I trust Eric Helms
Day 1 Lower (Monday)
Squats 3x3-5
Deadlift 3x3-5
Standing Calf 4x6-8
Hanging Leg-Raises 3x8-12
Cable Choppers 3x8-12

Day 2 Upper (Tuesday)
Bench Press 5x3-5
Barbell Row 4x4-6
Seated Shoulder DBB Press 3x6-8
Weighted Pull-Up 3x6-8
Dumbbell Triceps Extension 3x8-12
Hammer Curls 3x8-12

Day 3 (Wednesday)
Rest 1x24

Day 4 Lower (Thursday)
BB Hip Thrusts 3x6-8
Single Leg Press 3x6-8
Leg Curl/RDL 3x8-12
Seated Calf 4x12-15
Hanging Leg-Raises 3x8-12
Cable Choppers 3x8-12

Day 5 Push (Friday)
Overhead Press 4x5-7
Incline DBB Bench Press 3x6-8
Weighted Dips 3x8-12
Triceps Pushdown 2x12-15
Cable Chest Flys 3x12-15
Lateral Raises 4x8-12

Day 6 Pull (Saturday)
Seated Cable Row 3x6-8
Weighted Pull-Up 3x6-8
Weighted Back Extensions 3x8-12
Standing EZ Curl 2x12-15
Face Pulls 2x12-15
Rack Pulls 4x8-10

Day 7 (Sunday)
Rest 1x24

>Whats in day "B"?
Pause squats, ~70% of the load of regular squats.

>>breathing out while lifting
Breathe in before starting a rep, push it through your abs, breathe out at the end of the rep.

Btw here some cues that you might find helpful:
> on hip thrusts, only balls of your feet should touch the floor
> on hip thrusts, kickbacks, and hip abduction, squeeze at the top (count "1-2" slowly)
> on cable and machines, never let the weights "rest" at the end of a rep (count "1-2" again if you will)

I was training on gslp, but had to take several weeks off due to sprained wrist, Meanwhile found this, 3 weeks in and I can say that at least it is fun.

I've been doing a modified SS as I slowly get out of being injured:

AxBxA....

A:
3x5 Squats
3x5 Bench
1x5 Deadlift
2x10 Leg Curl
2x10 Pendlay Rows

B:
3x5 Squats
3x5 OHP
1x5 Deadlift
2x10 RDL
2x10 Wide-grip Chin-ups

Current Stats (all for x5 reps)
weight: 145 lbs
bench: 185
squat: 275
deadlift: 275
ohp: 105

How long should I do SS for? I'd like to move onto 5/3/1 triumvirate at some point

What do you think of this routine:

A:
Squat 3x5
OHP 3x5
Barbell row 3x5
Pull-up/chin-up 3xF*

B:
DL 1x5
Bench press 3x5
Dips 3xF*
HIIT (Tabata protocol progression program)

(*failure until you get 12 reps. Then you start to add weight and reduce the reps)

AxBxAxx, BxAxBxx

>How long should I do SS for?
Ultil you stop progressing. Also reading the fucking book may help

A
5x5 Bench
5x5 Squat
5x5 Row
2x10 Curl

B
5x5 Press
5x5 Pull-up
1x5 Deadlift
2x10 Back extension

read I just so happen to fit all those criteria

bump

I'm applying Steve Justa's Singles Strategy to my Squat, Bench, Deadlift, OHP, Barbell Row (in that order). So lifting everyday following this:

>Singles Strategy No.1 — One Lift (This is the one found in Easy Strength)
>1. Lift every day, seven days a week.
>2. Use 70% to start out and, as you gain strength, keep using 70%
>3. During Week One:
>• Day 1 – Do three singles with one to two minutes rest in between
>• Day 2 – Do five singles with one to two minutes rest in between
>• Day 3 – Do seven singles with one to two minutes rest in between
>• Day 4 – Do nine singles with one to two minutes rest in between
>• Day 5 – Do 11 singles with one to two minutes rest in between
>• Day 6 – Do 13 singles with one to two minutes rest in between
>• Day 7 – Do 15 singles with one to two minutes rest in between
>You have now made a complete cycle and are at Week 2, Day 1. Now you will add five or 10 lbs and go through the whole cycle again.
>4. Once a month, test your max to make sure you are using weights in your weekly cycle that are 70% of your max. If your weekly cycle weight was more than 70%, take weight off and adjust. If your weekly cycle weight was under 70%, add weight and adjust. This monthly testing of your max will keep you in the target zone.
>This workout must be done seven days a week, 365 days a year. Each week, you are building your endurance and toughening your tendons and ligaments by doing more and more work towards the end of each cycle, and then during the next week, or cycle as I call it, you're adding more weight and doing it all over again. The great thing about this type of training is that you will build great strength without really ever making yourself tired because the body is adjusting naturally and rhythmically.

My plan at this time is to follow this for 12 weeks and see it it's helping me reach my goals and see what is lagging and then make adjustments.

BTN Press Smith Machine, Incline Bench, Tricep Extension, Abs/Obliques

Rows, Deadlift, Farmer's Walk, Abs/Obliques, Forearms

Squat, Hammer Curls, Abs/Obliques

repeat

100 push ups warm up
4x10 Squats
4x10 Bench press
4x10 Bicep Curls
4x10 Power Heils (Lifting the arm to the sieg heil position w/weights)
Ab Isolations

There's a 2-day greyskull lp variant. It goes something like

A:
Ohp 2x5, 1xF
Squats 2x5, 1xF

B:
Bench press 2x5, 1xF
Deadlifts 1xF

Plus accessories like rows, chinups, v lat pulldowns, neck harness, etc. I read the book a while ago so I'm not sure if it is like that or something else

Pavel Tsatsouline's Russian Bear Program:
> startingstrength.com/resources/forum/programming/19799-power-people-programming-summary.html

It's a high volume, high intensity, low frequency program which allows good gains on 2 day/week basis. I would add a 3rd lift under the same principles though, such as Rows or Weighted Chin-ups.

can i work out 2 times a week like 1 hour and a half instead of 3 times a week?
would it be too exhausting to do all main lifts and some accessories in a single day?
is there something to help me get more energetic before i lift i think its called preworkout are they any good?

How effective is this routine? It's what I've been doing for several weeks and it sure feels nice
ayyyy I love Power Heils

my Weird 3-day split: been working really fucking well for me tho. started in july benching 155, now im benching 225.

A:
Barbell Bench 5x5
Weighted Dips 3x8, 1xF
flat bench flies 4x8
tricep pull down 4x8
overhead tricep pull 4x8
weighted decline situps 3x8

B:
Deadlift 5x5
Barbell row 3x10
pullups 3x10
preacher curl 4x8
hammer curl 4x8
lat isolation pulls 3x10
hanging knee raises 3x10

C:
Incline Dumbell Press 3x10
OHP: 3x10
Plate front raises 3x10
Plate side raises 3x10
weighted oblique dips 3x10
Squat 5x5

Workout A
Squat 3x5
Bench 3x5
Pendlay Rows 3x8
Face Pulls 3x10
Calf raises 2x15/Tricep pressdowns 2x10 Superset

Workout B
Front Squat 3x5
Overhead Press 3x5
Romanian Deadlift 3x8
Lat Pulldowns 3x8 (any grip)
Ab work 2x15/Bicep curls 2x10 Superset

Very good.
You could use some front squats however, and how do your grip not give up with 4x10 RDLs?

GZCL stuff is god tier, no clue why more people dont use it.
I'm planning a switch to his J&T2.0 routine.

Chest
Bench 4x12-5
dips 3x8
DB incline 3-4x12
fly movement

Back
Parallel Pull ups 3x max
pull downs wide 4x12
Barbell rows 3-4x12
seated cable rows 3-4x12

Legs
Squats 4x12
Romanian DL 4x12
Leg Press 3-4x12
Leg curls 4x12-15
leg extension 3x15
calves

Delts
OHP 3-4x8-5
wide barbell high pulls 4x12
side raises 4x12
reverse flies 4x15
rotator work

arms
barbell curls 4x12
tricep machine 4x12-15
DB curls 4x12
cable pushdowns 4x12
bicep machine 3x12
tricep dips 3x max

bro splits work....

Filthy returning novice with a torn labrum and a lower back issue where my left spinal erector ends up with most of the force during movements where I'm bent over.
Facepulls will come in when I can get a band.

3x5 Lowbar squat
3x5 RG bench press/3x5 OHP
3x5 RG T-bar row/2x8-10 Lat pulldowns
-
3x8-10 Cable pullthroughs/2x10-15 External rotations
3x Dead hangs
-
2x:
40sec plank
25+ reverse crunches
40sec side plank

Light cardio
Frequency method chins and scap pushups

Any advice for on the accessory movements? I'd like to keep it as basic as I can but still with a focus on the areas I need to pay attention to.

Not bad, My routine is pretty similar plus/minus some accessories and I keep my OHP on my first Push day. But I only do that because I've progressed my OHP beyond all my other lifts. Been working for me. I'd just add some calf raises and Hamstring curl to your C day.

Is it ABCABCx or AxBxCxx?

yeah i tried giving OHP its own day since i wasn't progressing much on it. my flat bench is 2 plate and my OHP is like 70 lbs.

also, whats your OHP, just wondering? mines pretty bitch weight still, pretty tough to progress on it.

yeah good call on the leg accessories

ICF on MWF
Dumbbell brosplit on TTrS.
Rest Sunday.
Half an hour of laps in the pool every day but Sunday.

ABCxABCx actually.

the added x rest day really, really helps for progressing on my bench. if you haven't tried it, give it a try.

For me, it's so that my shoulder day isn't adjacent to my bench press day. the rest day gives the padding.

i've had linear gains on a 600 calorie deficit for 3 months. i raise weight every 3 times i bench press.

I'm doing the /r/fitness PHUL, started with SS and switched to that. I've been making great gains though.

Critiques?

Switch B and D assuming there's a rest day between B and C.

why not 5x5 on the bench desu?

Just used to doing 4 is all, maybe I should change it to 5

I'd switch Pullups for squats on D, and add some easy RDLs, 3x8
Yeah and add facepulls 3x12 with easy as fuck weight, rear delts are ultra important and dont necessit alot of effort to grow moderately.
Otherwise excellent routine.

Day 1 Upper
3x5/3x3/531/ Ohp
5x10 Bench press
3x5 Chin ups
2xF Chin ups
3x8 Skullcrusher
3xF Chest flies

Day 2 Lower
3x5/3x3/531 Deadlift
5x5 Squat
5xF abs
3x12-15 wrist curls supinated/pronated

Day 3 rest

Day 4 Upper

3x5/3x3/531 Bench press
5x10 OHP
5x10 Dumbell row
3x8-10 Incline bicep curl
3xF chest flies

Day 5 rest

Day 6 Lower
5x5/3x3/531 Squat
5x5 Rack pull/pull variation
5xF Abs

Day 7 rest
I starded lifting from 40kg on squat and dead, and only bar for bench and ohp 4 months ago.
I stalled badly on SL 5x5 (i did it for 3 months) so i decided to switch to 531 for 2 months because its easier and i can do higher rep stuff which benefit my shitty bench and ohp form. Should i switch back to SL or SS after 2 months? My Calculated 1 RMs are
>85kg bench
>127kg squat
>156kg deadlift
>56kg ohp

Thanks. Came up with this routine after stalling on lvysaurs 4-4-8, based it on the exercises I really like. Might swap pendlay row with seal rows though.

5x5 works better for me for strength, its a good deal more volume. 20 vs 25 reps.

supposedly this is true for a lot of people.

Been at it for a month, slowly making gains.

Workout A:
Squats 5x5
Pull-ups 5x5
Bench Press 5x5
Bicep Curls 2x10
Wrist Curls 2x15
Calf Extensions 1x20

Workout B
Squats 5x5
Bent-over Rows 5x5
OHP 5x5
Deadlift 3x5
Wrist Curls 2x15
Calf Extensions 1x20

ABA, BAB, etc.

I do sort of a modified Texas Method with GPP since EVERYONE who does TM ends up modifying it. Even Rip & crew shit on TM now lol

Monday:
Squat 5x5
Bench/ OHP 5x5
Deadlift 3x5

Tuesday- Rest

Wednesday
Light Squat 3x5
OHP/Bench 3x5
Weighted Chin-ups 3x5
BB Rows (from floor) 3x5

Thursday - GPP day 1
Hit neglected muscles (rear delts, biceps, upper back/traps)
Ab work
Conditioning (Sprints, Prowler Push, Farmers Walks)

Friday
Squat 3x5
Bench/OHP 3x5
Power Cleans 5x3
Glute-Ham Raises 10x3

Saturday - GPP day 2
Bodyweight exercises (pushups, pullups/chinups, dips, etc.)
Ab work
Conditioning (Steady-state cardio)

GPP days are light and submaximal so they wont hinder training days
Been doing this for 2 months so far. Love it. Helped me burst through plateau after 6 months of SS.

Thoughts/critiques?

also i rest on sunday. obviously

May as well
Monday- Volume lower
5x5 squat 90% of 1x5
Hamstring movement
Abductors
Core work
Tuesday- Upper
Bench/OHP 5x5 @ 90%+
Triceps work
Upper back work
Rowing movement
Lateral raises
Lat work
Biceps curls
Thursday- Upper
Bench/Ohp @ 3x5
Chest movement
Shoulder movement
Back workx2
Biceps curls
Friday- Lower
Squat @ 1x5 new pr
Deadlifts 1x5 @ 85%
Core work
Saturday- Upper
Back work to infinity and some shoulder work

Point of this is to pick accessory movements for 8 weeks and go hard and heavy on them all the time, then rotate them out for new ones. Deloads are when you need them

looks good., glad to hear its working for you. Seems better than texas method at least. The problem with texas method isnt necessarily that its a bad program. its that most people run it after doing starting strength, but it doesnt really have any more volume or intensity than starting strenght, which is probably why people usually add stuff to it like yourself

ivysaur is really garbage, look up the GZCL method if you really want to build your own routines, and keep in mind two things :
>T1 are the most important lifts, never go lighter on them because you're tired of the smaller lifts following it
>your should pull as much as you push volume wise

anyone do Rows and Deadlifts on the same day? Im wanting to add rows to my routine but not sure if I'd be too tired to do them after DLs on back+tri day

back+bi* I mean

I did but now I do them on separate days, feels better

isn't this alpha destiny's novice program ?

Not great unless you're literally just starting and can't handle volume

1x5 DL is retarded
To Failure is always retarded

I do
4x5 weighted hanging sit ups
3x7 clean and press
2x7 pendlay row
5x7 squat
3x3 deficit deadlift
2x(2min) weighted dead hang
3x10 skullcrushers
AxAxAxAxAxAxAxAxAx
You'll be quite alright

just started on phat a couple weeks ago
liking it so far
thinking about taking out the rest day on wednesday though
because it is hard to get to the gym on saturday
>inb4 no dedication
my schools football field is right next to the gym, so the parking spots at the gym are tailgating spots and i will get towed

all around though it is a pretty good intermediate routine imo

Yes

I ran this one too, squat went from like 185ish for 3x5 to 295 for 3x5, made gains exactly as prescribed except for deadlifts. I found the volume way too low, one set is not enough to gauge where you're at.

Change deadlifts from 1x5 to 2x5 or 3x3.

Unless you don't care at all about aesthetics you should add a little more direct arm work (read triceps work, and unless you get a lot of bicep activation out of chins then biceps too), and definitely direct shoulder work.

>bro splits work....

"No"

no chest, calfs, or core?

You should throw a squat in there somewhere, or change conventional deadlifts out for trap bar deadlifts. You should be doing at least SOME heavy quad work if you want to look balanced.

I'm curious about the effect of such high frequency fullbody set ups. Let us know how it goes.

Standard 3-day PPL split, but is it enough for hypertrophy/strength?

Day 1 - Push:
- Chest Dips: 4x12, 1xF
- OHP: 3x12, 1x8, 1x6
- Seated Tricep Press: 4x12, 1x10
- DB Press (Flat/Incline): 4x12
- Seated Tricep Press: 4x12
- Tricep Cable Pushdown: 4x12

Day 2 - Run/Swim

Day 3 - Pull:
- Deadlifts: 2x12, 1x8, 1xF
- Bicep Curls: 3x7 (rest-pause sets) equals 21 reps per set (3 sets)
- T-Bar Row: 4x12
- Concentration Curls: 4x20 (10 per arm)
- Power High Pulls: 3x12

Day 4 - Poolee PT (bodyweight, endurance & anaerobic exercises, lots of running

Day 5 - Legs:
- Squats: 2x12, 1x8, 1x6
- Machine Calf Raises: 5x12
- Barbell Lunges: 4x12
- Seated Calf Raises 3x12
- Leg Extensions: 3x12

Day 6 - Run/Swim

NOTE: I'm using the other three days to do cardio/conditioning since I'm shipping to boot camp this December or January 2018. Any suggestions to add/remove from this routine?

u need a rest day user

35 here.

i stymied with TM and exploded with sheiko

AxAxABx

>A
to failure:
pull ups
chin ups
push ups
dips

3x8:
OHP
Rows
Bench
Curls

>B
Play soccer for 2 hours for leg day lel

Is Starting Strength really that much better?

I have the book, but I couldn't find the routine in it.

I'm on my second week with StrongLifts, should I still switch?

naw, if you are shitty with cleans you can hurt your risks. Just do starting strength mindset with stronglifts app desu

I don't use the app because Google botnet.

Starting Strength mindset?

by that i mean read the book.

anecdotally I also like what heavy rows do to my back

...

Monday:
5x5 Squat
5x10 Squat
5x8-10 leg press
5x20 calf raises
3x10 glute ham raise

Tuesday
5x5 OHP
5x8 lateral raise
4x8 dumbbell press
then some rear delt work and triceps

Thursday
5x5 Bench
5x10 bench or db bench
4x8 db flies
5x10 barbell curls
5x10 tricep pushdowns

Friday
2x5 Deadlift
5x5 Barbell Rows
5x10 cable rows
5x10 shrugs

All of the major lifts are done in a 6 week cycle. Week 1 70% for 5x5, week 2 80% 5x5, week 3 90% 4x3, week 4 75% 5x5, week 5 85% 4x3, week 6 95% 4x1.

See I'm pretty much the opposite. My OHP is 1pl8 3x5 and my flat bench is 185 5x5. Added incline bench and more chest accessory a little bit and have seen increases but I feel like its taking me a long time to get to 2pl8.

My OHP didn't take long to progress but that's just because It's my favorite lift and I naturally had good traps and shoulders from playing football in highschool.

First time I actually hit the gym I was doing OHP at 95.

do you guys add accessory work in with this program? I feel like I would still have a lot of energy even after the big lifts?

I didn't but you could add rear delt work on day B, hamstring curls or A and C and some direct arm work. You can add some stuff just don't go crazy.

Someone tell me if this is okay or if it’s totally retarded this is my first time making a routine

PUSH/PULL/LEGS

PUSH 1: CHEST/TRICEPS/ SHOULDERS
Flat Dumbbell BP: 4x8
DB Shoulder Press: 4x8
Incline Dumbbell BP: 3x8
DB Flies: 3x15
Lateral raises: 3x10-12
Rope Pushdown: 3x10-12
Skullcrushers or Tricep Extension: 3x8
Shrugs: 3x15

PULL 1: BACK/BICEPS + ABS
Deadlifts: 3x8
Barbell Row: 4x8
Pull-ups: 3x8
Seated Rows: 4x10-12
Face-Pulls: 3x10–12
Barbell Bicep Curl: 3x8
Concentration Curl: 3x8
Spider Curl: 3x15

LEGS
Squats: 3x8
Leg Press: 3x15
Leg Extension: 4x8
Calf Extension: 3xFailure
Lying Leg Curl: 4x8
Glute Ham Raises: 3x8

PUSH 2: CHEST/TRICEPS/SHOULDERS
Flat Barbell BP: 5x5
Barbell Shoulder Press: 5x5
Incline Barbell BP: 3x5
Dips: 3xFailure
Lateral Raise: 3x5
Rope Pushdown: 3x10-12
Skull Crushers/Tricep Extension: 3x8
Shrugs: 3x15

PULL 2: BACK/BICEPS + ABS
Deadlifts: 3x5
Barbell Row: 5x5
Pull-ups: 3x6
Seated Rows: 4x10-12
Face-Pulls: 3x10–2
Preacher Curl: 3x5
Barbell Bicep Curl: 3x5
Hammer Curl: 3x6

LEGS 2
Squats: 5x5
Hack Squat: 3x5
Leg Extension: 4x8
Calf Extension: 3xFailure
Lying Leg Curl: 4x8
Glute Ham Raises: 3x8