How do i gain muscle here? Rows seem to just hit rear delts and pulldowns seem to just hit lats

>time under tension
>not real
Charles Atlas would like a word with you.

> rows hit rear delts
bring your grip in more, you're probably gripping it too wide.
to get more upper back involvement you use a medium grip, for more lats you use a close grip, and for rear delts a wide grip.
medium grip is good for all around development too.

>pulldowns just hit lats
> pulldowns
yeah, start doing weighted chinups instead bro. lat pulldown sucks

Face pulls

I don't count reps, I count time under load. If I can surpass 2:00 before failure then I increase the load next workout. Failure meaning shaking, hyperventilating, you couldn't do another rep if there was a gun pointed at your head failure. It is excruciating, and you need about a week to recover that bodypart, and I have been getting great gains this way. Check out Body By Science for more info, you can download a free pdf on archive dot org.

nigga u dumb as shit
i bet u bounce ur weights and shit

SHRUGS YOU MORONS

dumbell shrugs. 3x8. heaviest you can grip

interesting. got the pdf now. thanks user

>tfw shrugs are 85lb/dumbbell
>tfw can go more and I know it
>tfw grip can't keep up
Is it time to use the squat/lunge plate machine and forgo muh dumbbells?

>>time under tension
>>not real
>Charles Atlas would like a word with you.

never said time under tension isn't real bro.
here's the thing tho: you can achieve the SAME time under tension as that "slow cadence, 10 second concentric, 5 second pause, 10 seconds eccentric" stuff by just doing more straight sets with a regular cadence.

the whole reason why says he feels DOMS in that area is because doing overly slow reps like that just makes the muscles more sore and take longer to recover

for example, if you can only do 3 sets of 8 of a certain weight with that overly slow "controlled cadence", you can simply do 5 or more sets of 8 with that weight with a normal cadence and get the same training stimulus.
the difference however will be that since you're not as sore, you can hit do this exercise MORE FREQUENTLY meaning more OVERALL VOLUME, and MORE GAINS

besides, what's easier to add more sets/weight/reps to?
an exercise done with TEN SECOND concentrics and eccentrics, or an exercise done with reps done at a regular pace?

beyond that, lifting weights explosively is just overall better. it builds more strength, more power, and more muscle. why would you ever train in a way to make yourself SLOWER? it's retarded

Hmmm listen (you) or Mike Mentzer and Dorian Yates... tough decision

>nigga u dumb as shit
>i bet u bounce ur weights and shit

nope. you can lift explosively and still do it in a controlled manner. that's what makes the muscles all fire as one unit.

doing all these "slow and controlled reps" gives you DOMS, yes, but it doesn't mean it builds more muscle. what builds more muscle is progressive overload and getting sore as fuck all the time from 10 second eccentrics doesn't help you progress faster.

seriously, that "slow and controlled" shit is like one of the biggest memes ever.

doing reps more slowly is just another way of progressive overload.
Adding weight is one, doing more reps is another, taking less rest between sets is yet another.

>calling shit broscience
>proceed to call other people bro when sharing "science"

>eccentrics dont build muscle
when I was starting out, doing negative pullups allowed me to progress to regular pullups.

Or you could listen to people who do real sports and not some meth addict broscientist.

>Mike Mentzer and Dorian Yates

ya, two steroid users. Moot point.

cable shrugs with the rope. just pay attention to form
you can use the squat lunge machine if you want but you'll still have grip issues cuz you're still holding the weight in the air

i didn't say it doesn't build muscle dude, just that it doesn't build MORE muscle.

>"slow and controlled" shit is like one of the biggest memes ever.

this is literally the foundation of bodybuilding. explosiveness and volume gets you Olympic lifts. control and emphasis on concentric get you Mr Olympia

Time to start farmer walking.

and you would be provably wrong.

Reverse flys

bodybuilding is fucking gay

> explosiveness and volume gets you Olympic lifts
>control and emphasis on concentric get you Mr Olympia

are you really this naive, bro?
boatloads of steroids and elite genetics is what gets you Mr Olympia. All pro bodybuilders have different training styles and "secret tricks" yet they all get results.

and who said it's the "foundation" of bodybuilding? there are tons of bodybuilders that lift normally.

>provably wrong

alright. please show the proof then.
please show proof that doing regular speed reps and getting in MORE OVERALL VOLUME with them results in less muscle gain than slow controlled reps with LESS OVERALL VOLUME

Hey everyone, this retard thinks he can just take steroids do almost nothing (because the little something you do is like grandma aerobics tier kid) and get as big as mm or dorian yates

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3285070/

>We report that leg extension exercise at 30% of the best effort (which is a load that is comparatively light), with a slow lifting movement (6 s up and 6 s down) performed to fatigue produces greater increases in rates of muscle protein synthesis than the same movement performed rapidly (1 s up and 1 s down)

wa la!

wow you are an absolute fucking moron

the sheer amount of steroids that pro bodybuilders take and their great genetics basically renders smart training protocols obsolete and lets them grow for ~7 days off one workout (which isn't the case for natties)

that's why Dorian's slow and controlled training worked so well for him, he was able to induce a shit load of volume in one workout and the heavy cycle he was on helped him recover and grow for it for ~7 days

People that aren't on steroids need higher frequency than every 7 days, thats just a fact.
So being sore as fuck all the time from extremely slow reps is inefficient.

Like I said above, the extremely slow reps are a fast way to accrue a certain amount of volume, but at the expense of needing longer to recover. Whereas if you were doing regular speed reps, not only would you get more overrall volume, but your recovery would be better, and therefore you would be able to get more frequency.

This is simple, basic stuff, and its scary that so many people still believe in long debunked broscience

>> >We report that leg extension exercise at 30% of the best effort (which is a load that is comparatively light), with a slow lifting movement (6 s up and 6 s down) performed to fatigue produces greater increases in rates of muscle protein synthesis than the same movement performed rapidly (1 s up and 1 s down)

yes, because doing an exercise in that 6 up, 6 down style in a given rep range is MORE VOLUME than doing the exercise in the 1 up, 1 down style.

that doesn't meant that you can't get more volume with the 1 up, 1 down style by doing more sets.

Can you imagine the clusterfuck that is going on inside this man's brain?

post jacked body please. Debunk me daddy

>a slow lifting movement (6 s up and 6 s down) performed to fatigue produces greater increases in rates of muscle protein synthesis than the same movement performed rapidly (1 s up and 1 s down)
>performed to fatigue produces greater increases in rates of muscle protein synthesis than the same
>performed to fatigue produces greater increases
>performed to fatigue
>to fatigue

If you want more muscle, lift slow and heavy. scientically verified fact for 50+ years. It's why nautilus machines were invented, dontchakno

if you want yo be stronger and do sport, lift lots. German volume training was specifically invented for this. Also well known science fact for decades.

>muh steriods!
“Errybody wanna to be a bodybuilder, but nobody wanna to lift no heavy-ass weights.”

It is a place of light and reason, informed by sharp observation and rational analysis, buoyed on a lilac-scented wave of reliable research and data.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go do some sweet curls and tricep kickbacks

nicceee and sloooow

What the fuck are you talking about

> Can you imagine the clusterfuck that is going on inside this man's brain?

theres no clusterfuck in my brain at all, I'm just thinking critically which you guys can't seem to do.

no shit 3 or whatever sets till failure with a slow cadence induced greater rates of protein synthesis than 3 sets with a normal cadence, it's MORE VOLUME

you could do 5 or 6 sets with the normal cadence and get more volume, and the benefit is that since you're not doing slow reps making you more sore, you can TRAIN THE MUSCLE MORE FREQUENTLY.
Which means overall more volume and more protein synthesis.

You guys have no fucking clue what you are talking about or how to even analyze a scientific study. Jesus christ.

>It is a place of light and reason, informed by sharp observation and rational analysis, buoyed on a lilac-scented wave of reliable research and data.
ditto

two guys

Guy 1 does 3 sets of 10 with 145 pounds in a slow controlled style that gives him enormous DOMS, making him super sore for days

Guy 2 does 5 sets of 10 with 145 pounds in a normal speed cadence and accrues the same volume Guy 1 did, but he is not as sore as Guy 1. So he is able to do more overrall volume in the week and gain more muscle than Guy 1 because of it.

If you are not as sore, you did not reach the same level of intensity. The only way to increase volume is to decrease intensity.

not true at all. if that were true, then 1RM attempts would make you sore as fuck. but they don't, you usually only feel sore when you do a lot of volume.

lifting in a normal cadence let's you progress in strength and size more efficiently than lifting in a super slow cadence.

all that soreness and fatigue that lasts for days after doing extremely slow cadence reps is mostly just connective tissue inflamation anyway, not just muscle soreness

dont know if doumb or genious

double d bar rows like pic related

Cable pushdowns

Snatch and clean and jerk

my rhoms are more developed than my lats

i pendlay, tbar, seated cable and facepulls, so one or more of them works hard

Rowing machine and close in dumbbell rows

>wa la
please tell me thats a meme i just haven't encountered yet.
i hope you weren't trying to say voilà.

Dumb, lifting for time is cross fit tier retardness

Just do some heavy sets with good form and progress from there. Doing "slow and controlled" squeezing shit is innefficient for long term progress

Unironically rack pulls above the knee

Literally was typing this word for word and then I saw you beat me
To it
Yeh op these are the goat

It's such an underrated exercise. Say what you will about meme destiny, but he knows his stuff.

Lat pulldown machine behind the neck, alternate bars and use straps and wide grip this usually hits me a little higher up tho
Snatch grip rack pulls above the knee with straps, unironically
Sitting down bent over shrugs
Sitting or standing cable rows with different angles and grips, I like standing up with the grip where you have your hands together at a slight angle
Facepulls, different angles, I like to set the cable to the lowest position
Sitting cable rows with rope

No you should get a pair of straps
I hate doing heavy shrugs without straps I get scared I will drop the dumbbells on my toes
Also some gyms have shitty dumbbell racks where if you slam the dumbbells down (which I tend to do when I feel Im losing my grip) sometimes other dumbbells can fall out of the rack and hit peoples feet
Straps also makes it easier for me to focus on the feeling/pump/contact/mind-body-whatever because when my grip is lacking all my concentration and focus and energy goes into reinforcing the grip. With straps I can "Let the grip go" and focus my attention to the main target of the exercise
This applies not only to shrugs but to many other pulling movement or other back exercises like deadlifts, rack pulls, barbell rows (especially for wide grip exercises and volume days)

Some people argue you shouldnt use straps because you will get a weak grip but you can still do all the grip training youd do otherwise, its just a way of doing more volume and go extra heavy on the main target
If grip strength is super important to you then you can use the straps for only the last or the heaviest sets

I also like barbell holds for grip strength because you can just drop the bar back in the rack, this is very useful for training your "mental grip skill" (or whatever) like confronting your fear of losing the grip while doing shrugs and also actually test out exactly how far out on your finger tips you forcefully lose the grip

>inb4 why dont you marry your straps

man you are the only one here who isnt a brainlet, pls escape before its too late

nether rows

Just use straps once you get really tired my dude.

Scapular pull-ups / scap pull-ups / scap-ups / whatever you want to call them.
Basically just start from a dead hang on a pull-up bar and retract and depress your scapula, should end leaning back a bit with your chest high. Hold for a second or two, then return to dead hang in a slow, controlled manner. Small ROM, but they hit the mid and low traps hard. During regular pull-ups your scapulae should be retracted and depressed throughout the movement (if they're not, you're asking for shoulder impingement), which contracts the mid and low traps isometrically. Scap pull-ups are just a way to hit them harder than an isometric hold. Alternatively, you can do dead hang pull-ups, starting each pull-up from a dead hang each time. Those combine the two movements and will thus hit your mid and low traps too. However, I find most people, myself included, will start to drop into the dead hang too quickly after a few reps, which can be pretty bad for your shoulders. So instead I just break the movement up, pull-ups and scap-ups, and do a few dead hang pull-ups every now and again for the full movement pattern. Protects your shoulders and gets you great results, plus you get double the forearm stimulus. Either superset them with regular pull-ups or just do them after your regular sets of pull-ups. I would not advise doing them before you do pull-ups because then the muscles might be too tired to effectively maintain the isometric contraction necessary for proper form.

*shrugs*

you're an utter retard. Shrugs are for upper traps, OP is talking about middle traps which are hit by rows dumbass.

>retard
>dumbass
:(

That's not the same as volume. Volume is defined by how many working sets you do. I think you're conflating volume with either work or perceived effort. I think the retard doing 20 second reps has an enourmous perceived effort with little actual work and less overall volume. Doing slow ""controlled reps"" will induce a lot of fatigue and metabolic stress, while doing regular sets you do more work and you're able to hit that muscle group with more volume and more frequency thus more gains.

Can we all agree on what "normal" speed is?
Surely its around 1.0 - 1.5 second concentric, complete retraction with few millisecond pause, and then 1.0 - 1.5 second eccentric.

No weight bouncing, no momentum. In a controlled fashion or the weight is too high.

Have I got it right?

Ergometer

Reverse airplanes on a bench in prone position

There can be "bouncing" (using stretch reflex) as long as you're not using excessive momentum. For paused movements like the deadlift no bouncing.

I assume you mean squats when saying bouncing is okay. I agree with this. But I would not agree with something like lat pulldown or triceps extension. I feel you need to spend at least a few milliseconds "hanging out" in the fully contracted area to get quality reps and not just "bro bounce".

How is your grip failing at 170lbs? Do more heavy double overhand deads

That's not a stretch reflex

Ok sorry.

:)

Can't believe no one has suggested this yet..
>the absolute state of this board
Anyway op, just watch this really quick
youtu.be/OXvQe9payHw

Hey anons,
You're all correct in certain regards, however, there are some things I would like to clear up. Time under tension is definitely a real concept, we all agree. The main issue I believe what you guys are discussing are which methods induce hypertrophy of the muscle, and what induces higher strength GAINZ. There's plenty of research out there that has proven evidence that slower eccentric movements create more microtears in the muscle resulting in more feeling of DOMS (DOMS is a result of microtears and not metabolic waste). It also results in a more suitable metabolic environment for hypertrophy. Bloodflow restriction therapy is a new method used in PT that you gents might find interesting as it relates to this subject. Also, I would like to say that someone should have just mentioned the muscles involved, as well as the muscle actions.

This being
Primary: Rhomboids, Middle Trapezius
Action: Retraction of the scalpulae

Secondary: Lower Trapezius, Levator Scalpulae
Actions: LT does depression of the shoulder girdle, LS does elevation of the shoulder girdle

Do t-bar rows or pendlay rows but flex your triceps at the bottom of the rep before you pull. Weirdly I also get DOMS in this region after doing chinups (but not pullups) while thinking about this cue

what handle would you recommend ? wide or narrow

not him, but I like straps

roof raises