What went wrong?

What went wrong?

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=Ej34H1pabOU
archive.is/oy1Kb
themeadery.org/b/ian/read/news-hasbro-reports-q2-increase-in-revenue-but-a-decline-in-mtg/
twitter.com/fffreakmtg/status/724245424551411712
twitter.com/AnonBabble

Richard Garfield lost interest

/thread

>decades of preferential treatment for U
>mythic rares
>planeswalkers
Among many others

Restricted list

this this ever more

>decades of preferential treatment for U
>comment during "creatures the tappening"

timmy's being retards does not make U any better

>mythic rares
>planeswalkers
I agree, but these are just symptoms

You have your head up your ass if you think U has any preferential treatment

oops, I meant reserved list

Lack of reprints
The reserved list
Recent design choices

OP being a faggot.

For me, it's lack of variety.

When WotC stopped printing/creating cards like pic related and other weird effects that require a dedicated deck at lower CMC, part of the charm was gone.

WotC became married to the secondary market. It helped the game grow, but at a certain point it becomes unsustainable, choking off new players and having the reverse effect.

See: Vintage, Legacy and soon Modern.

It wouldn't be unsustainable for WotC if they reprinted staples regularly now would it?

>reprints

collectors, speculators and the secondary market would be pissed at Wizards so Wizards caved to them.

Their marriage is exactly what's preventing the reprints.
Somebody really high up thinks that they absolutely need to protect the investments of speculators and vendors in the secondary market. If they'd print a LEGACY GOLD SERIES or MODERN GOLD SERIES it would crash the secondary market, but the influx for Legacy would be insane.

Why? WotC is throwing out support for all the eternal formats anyway, and WotC doesn't make ANY money from secondary markets.
Why the hell does WotC cave to speculators and collectors at all?

>soon Modern.
Christ. I know right? Those rising prices aren't helping anyone.

> WotC is throwing out support for all the eternal formats anyway

They still have pro-tours and GPs. Those count, right?

The game became about who had the biggest wallet before the second set was even released.

Because CCGs depend heavily on vendors. They are the guys that drum up the most interest with streams, events, coverages and shit.
WotC's and the Vendor's symbiosis seems to be based on the secondary market. WotC prints good cards at high rarities and may or may not let the big vendors know of un/bannings in advance, and they also don't really reprint stuff to protect the value of the cards.
The vendors control the secondary market and as long as WotC isn't crashing it, they make a lot of money.

YGO and Pokémon seem to mostly exist by virtue of selling sealed product, but Magic seems to be based on the protection of the secondary market. Mythic rarity alone is proof of that, if not shit like shifting rarities of staples up or not even reprinting recent cards like Inquisition.

The business model, mostly.
Lands are pretty bad as a mechanic too. The fact that lands are both the most boring part of a deck and often the most expensive is an absolute killer.

I still don't see how WotC is motivated to protect the secondary market, because consumer interest will be maintained by the actual consumers regardless if the speculators are wealthy, and i'm sure consumers would still be especially interested in regular reprints

This is like a publisher refusing to print more than the first edition, of a book, to protect libraries net worth

It's not just huge power houses like Star City Games, buying and re-selling singles like your FLGS is probably one of their largest income sources.

Reprinting their stock makes it worth a lot.. lot less.

Pandering to the lowest common denominator.
Compare Kamigawa (which is actually really beautiful and far-out) to Theros (which is just a pop culture slurry).

youtube.com/watch?v=Ej34H1pabOU
archive.is/oy1Kb

MaRo doesn't want to reprint good cards because he is afraid overpowered and broken cards.

What I don't get is that isn't it the designer team's job to create a balance on how would cards interact or work in a standard format? How do they even decide what gets reprinted or not? Like when Scry became a evergreen ability, you would think that Serum Vision would be included in Origins.

Literally FLGS' would stop selling Magic singles because they would not want to buy them because they would crash at every reprint.

When a store stops selling singles then they make less money off the game.

Then they are not motivated to hold as many tournaments and they will just carry the base amount of product.

This is what happened to Yu-Gi-Oh.

TL;DR you need to give an economic reason to carry a product. If you keep losing money on cards getting reprinted stores will pretty much just kill the game.

Sure it will exist in homes and between friends but the structure will be gutted in totality.

Jews

FLGS's are one of the only place that will even accept the socially inept who want to play.

People would lose interest en masse...

user...they just canceled the Modern pro tour.

All Pro tours are standard from here on out.

I already understand why the FLGS might dislike it, but WHY DOES WOTC CARE ABOUT THAT? Hell you would think they would dislike speculators because retarded prices fucking kill interest faster than repriting, because its practically a money waste at the point it is now just to participate. That kills interest faster than the vendors being miffed.

It makes Wotc no money, and kills interest in mtg as a whole when eternal formats are axed to save the speculation, ironically killing the speculation.

Why the hell does WotC care about vendors, the consumers are what drives the fucking product not the speculators

>MaRo doesn't want to reprint good cards because he is afraid overpowered and broken cards.
Pretty sure Maro is the problem. If/when someone replaces him I'm sure well see magic take a swing in a different direction. And I will very much welcome whatever that change it.

Reprint the money makers in an uncontrolled fashion: literally kill the fucking game.

Along with jobs and community hubs.

All because people are too poor to afford cardboard monster pictures.

They care because playerbases are exponential and thrive on having multiple people to introduce them to the game, and to play with them.

It'd be like if you took away bowling alleys then wondered why less bowling balls were being sold.

Actually the game is larger than ever despite people leaving the game due to costs. Also if FLGS' don't like a business practice or dealing with a shitty company they tend to stop holding tournaments and selling product.

Because it IS making Wizards money.
Vendors selling Singles have an interest in growing the community, because more players = more sales = more demand = higher prices = more cashmoney.

And more players means more people playing Limited and buying sealed product, meaning more of that shit is bought by vendors from WotC.
A huge amount of sealed product is ALSO directly bought by vendors to crack open and sell as singles.

But no one is suggesting reprinting them uncontrollably

Hell thats whats fucking happening with Chinese fakes BECAUSE the prices for reals are fucking way to retarded

This just sounds like fearmongering on the vendors part, and completely empty, and also stupid

YGO Reprints cards? i thought they functioned on intentional set powercreep. how does YGO simultaneously have powercreep and killed vendor interest with reprints?

I thought they damaged interest because they don't have a secondary market at all, not that reprinting killed it, but powercreep killed it.

Haven't Magic Sales be sinking again for the last two years?

I heard Khans sold well, then again it was because of the reprinted Fetchlands.

>all these people liking his post.

>exponetial
no its logistic

that whole bowling analogy was solid non-sequitur

>reprinting due to consumer demand is "shitty behavior"
vendors speculating and threatening to drop a product if reprinted is shitty behavior

>Vendors selling Singles have an interest in growing the community
FLGS already suffer speculation bubble collapses every time standard rotates
Hell i know shops that literally only carry singles from the current BLOCK

The threats of dropping all MTG if staples gets reprinted is hot air, because the secondary market and speculation is lucrative only if captive, and standard rotation already breaks that

>Not coming out with the JACETICE team sooner
>Giving a shit about Urza

It was a combo of both powercreep and reprinting. Even with power creep there is a concept of price retention that prevents an object from ever going below a certain point but price retention only applies when there is a fixed supply.

Imagine if, when the next Magic block cycled out, Wizards released a best of box set and it came with every card over $3 and it was like $20.

Then released cards that were objectively better.

This would destroy both the retained card value and any future values.

When reprints are paired with power creep demand stays the same or increases for new cards but sellers aren't buying new stock of cards because of fear of the looming reprint. So you have the whole player base trying to buy some cards from only a handful of people because that's all the market can support.

Ultimately reprints were more destructive and power creep expedited it.

Quite the opposite. Other than battle and oath, basically every new set is the best selling set ever.

>All Pro tours are standard from here on out.

The fuck, why?

People are so anally rustled over blue, when it's one of the most heavily regulated colors in the game. Blue can't win on it's own because talentless, skill less hacks wanted their participation trophies, and we were the only ones keeping the hobby clean of casuals and SJWs.

Nigger what powercreep?
The most expensive and powerful cards have already been printed, like power nine, dual lands, and cmc 1 answers

>not wanting to lose money is shitty behavior
k

The demand is for sealed product, not reprints. Doing reprints would only serve to damage their relationships with stores and vendors. So they can print controlled sets with minimal reprints, keep the people who buy direct from them happy, and grow the brand all while making a healthy supply chain.

Why fix a system that, economically, is perfectly sound because some community college drop out wants to play with their monster pictures?

The person he is responding to was talking about what killed YuGiOh and the guy explained what killed it.

Because nothing new ever pops up in modern.

I think this is statistics manipulation

The real numbers test would be "Is the average of people playing mtg over people who have ever played mtg" going up

because you can have more instances of individuals playing, while having shit retention rates, and a skyrocketing exodus

>FLGS already suffer speculation bubble collapses every time standard rotates
Standard Rotations are predictable.
Sudden reprints are not. If Wizards came out tomorrow and announced "Reserved List is abolished, welcome to Vintage Masters with Duals at Common!", it would crash that part of the market with now survivors.

>non-sequitur
You should really look up what that is before you use it incorrectly again.

Also, when you introduce two friends to a game, who introduce it to multiple friends each, who invite more, it's exponential.

Well forgive me for missing that, when he didn't mention YGO at all, and implied that MTG reprints would cause the same result as YGO, AND completely ignored the contradiction of powercreep AND reprints causing the same problem

Have you considered perhaps that the demand for sealed products is high because people don't have the money or don't want to invest the money to get into constructed formats?

Is English your first language?

themeadery.org/b/ian/read/news-hasbro-reports-q2-increase-in-revenue-but-a-decline-in-mtg/

And I recall having read something like that for 2015 not too long ago.
Doesn't necessarily contradict what you are saying, but if boosters sales are up, then what is going on?

>Sudden reprints are not.
WHO THE FUCK SAID SUDDEN?
are you trying to be obtuse on purpose?

WotC can ease into a reprint schedule, can have a regular reprint schedule, and can still do insider tradeing/ notice with LGS like they do with the incoming card bans

Doesn't matter. The market does not care.

If people are willing to pay for sealed then that's the way it will be. Why fix something that is literally the opposite of broken? Even the weakest selling sets of the last five years have been record breaking when you look at the decade as a whole. They are doing something right in the way they keep all parts of the sale beneath them happy.

If you want those cards you will save for those cards. If you cannot afford those cards, you do not care enough. You have no right to afford anything.

>this whole post

didn't they just also killed off Event decks? I'm guessing either Duel Decks or Commander decks will be discontinued soon.

>clear of casuals and SJWs
So, just to be clear... You would rather play with like-minded people with opinions that match your own, over and over again, rather than sit across from someone who doesn't take the game as seriously as you or someone with an AleshaWSAD playmat and a tumblr blog?

The problem is the very first announcement. The moment they first announce any reprints on a meaningful scale, prices will crash down.
And then nothing is safe anymore.

You are fully capable of not playing Magic if you do not like the way they do business. If you like the FLGS' staying afloat and having a broad system of tournaments and organized play then you might just have to fucking deal with it.

the best creatures are Blue.

It also adds the problematic "un-fun" (yes yes fun is a buzzword) situation of mana flooding/mana screwing. Basically you might not GET to play the game BECAUSE OF A CORE GAME MECHANIC. Say what you like about Hearthstone, it streamlined that part of the game pretty well.

(Also the "not allowed to play" feeling is most of what makes people butthurt about U. Every U player has that 'single player game' deck list stacked with counterspells, shackling enchantments etc)

would a Timeshifted or Expedition additional card in a booster would help reprints?

They found they could sell way more if they made the duel decks = Event Decks.

So now they have duel decks that can be combined together to form 1 Event Deck.

>the best creatures are Blue
Like delicious tournament winners: tarmagoyf and serra angel

How would you work that around the, you know, 5 different colors in the fucking game? What about ramp? What about land destruction? What about the non-basic lands with neat effects? Magic: the gathering would not be magic:the gathering without lands.

Yes move the goal posts till you have to fall back to personal attacks

He didn't mention YGO, And I thought he was answering my question about how YGO's development meta related to MTG's

YGO reprints would have no effect on its secondary market, because of the inherently designed powercreep, the secondary market is dead on arrival
THAT is why I am having trouble seeing how it would apply to MTG, where the most powerful cards have already existed, and reprinting is suggested to just increase access to them, and power creep is not constantly intentionally designed, not to mention it rarely exceeds the precedent

No. A black lotus reprint, or even the hint that one is possible, would be a massive loss to a lot of people. Even a 30% decrease in price would be a massive loss for a store or reseller.

Shit one black lotus and half a time walk can BUY you a FLGS

Markets do not recover easy.

Serra angel has been power-creep'd out by now. That mythic rare flipping angel in the new set is 4 different flavors of better than Serra angel.

I like how Kaijudo dealt with mana making every card a "land", though it seems the game was flooded with 5color goodstuff type decks

Expeditions had practically no impact and, if any, it was getting the price up.

Fuck. Meant to reply to

You could probably prevent that by going heavier on colored Manacost. You can't really go 5C Goodstuff if the good stuff needs RRR or GGG or WWW at least.

Card quality has dropped significantly since Dragon's Maze, R&D has been dropped on its head or forced to back off printing more than one good card in a set. This has, at least for me, caused more players to leave Standard and go for more eternal formats AKA Modern, since only me and 3 other people at my store play Legacy

And even then, we reached the point of $1000 Standard decks in the Khans era

>The market does not care.
nigger wat? the consumers are the foundation of the market

if the producer is forcing the consumers away from the actual market equilibrium, then it would certainly be relevant.
This is artificial manipulation of the consumers by the producer, and those bubbles always pop

No seriously
In this thread It has been stated that MTG's interest is supported by a healthy secondary market
It has been stated that MTG is killing eternal format support

How the hell will the healthy interest be supported if the secondary market is stagnated to heat death and dropped like a dead cat?

It's `kay, the mis-click was just as retarded as implying blue had the best creatures.

This is total bullshit because Blak lotus's price is because its a fucking collector item from 2 decades ago

Its alpha and beta prices would not be affected at all

The secondary market for YuGiOh was not DOA but took several years to kill. It was quite strong for a while but once a precedent of both reprints and power creep was established the market was killed.

Regardless of if better cards are to come out after we reprint Black Lotus or Sneak Attack, or anything of value above $20, the market has been shown that these are poor investments and the market would die.

Magic's market is a lot bigger so it will take longer to kill but it would happen. The first to go would be the FLGS' because they usually already run a razor's edge and can't afford to be throwing money away on poor investments that they know won't retain the money they spend on buying from players, even at retarded 20% of tcg type sell rates. Once FLGS' go the game is dead within a handful of years.

If you cannot see this you are being intentionally obtuse.

Nigger you are intentionally ignoring my directly relevant question: (IN MTG) what fucking powercreep?

Why even bloat card prices when being a pro might win you small amounts of money

twitter.com/fffreakmtg/status/724245424551411712

The market doesn't care if Bobby can't afford a goyf playset.

It only cares that Jimmy, Sue, and Nick are buying packs. You are not a factor in a market that pulls its data from pack pulling.

The only things Wizards knows are:
>people are buying packs
>stores sell packs and get people to spend more money by organizing events
>keeping the stores happy is important
>we can do this through giving them a way to make money by buying old cards from players and reselling them
>we can encourage them to push our game harder by protecting their investments (as small as they are individually, but a whole inventory is quite valuable)
>we can do this through not reprinting cards in large quantities

Wizards can only protect downward value, not upward. They can see the market value go up and say "okay we can literally only make this cheaper by reprinting it" so they pick and choose their battles and what to reprint. By having a reserved list they make an explicit list of investments for stores to make.

I never said anything about Magic power creep except in a hypothetical. Power creep on its own wouldn't kill Magic anyways because the reserved list would always have a permanent value.

The only real, guaranteed killer of Magic would be reprints.

Except that Bobby is actually Billy, Bob, Bert, Bertha, who outnumber Jimmy Sue and Nick, have spent more money on MTG than Jimmy Sue and Nick, and will be retained longer than Jimmy Sue and Nick

They are choosing to kill eternal formats, how the hell does that protect the secondary market better than reprinting?
Dead is less desirable than dying.

Some FLGS actually sell products other than MTG

MTG is sustained by a massive bubble. This bubble cannot exist forever. There is only so much design space, so much saturation that MTG can get, so much the prices can rise, and it's going to pop one day with dire repercussions for groups who are invested in the secondary market as well as people who are interested purely in the game.

We've been seeing rehashes of old sets several times already, the reduction of total new prints per year... the design space left for the game without significant powercreep is increasingly limited. If a new set is mismanaged or if the game stagnates because of lack of new material, Magic will die.

One day the bubble will pop, the prices will crash, FNM attendance will drop through the floor. It might not be next year, might not be five years from now, might not be ten years from now, but there will be a day that Magic won't really exist anymore, and it feels like everyone is trying to be blissfully ignorant of that fact.

>brings up YGO
asks how YGO is relevant
>Its completely different and un-applicable
but, how is it relevant
>h-yuck, is English you first language?
answer my question
>reasserts non-sequiter conclusion

how is YGO relevant to MTG if your extremely tenuous connection is a disjointed hypothetical?

if MTG's power-creep is not inherently designed, and insignificant, then how is it relevant in secondary market to YGO where its inherent power-creep is the dominant factor?

...

>There is only so much design space
Before NWO I would have argued against you

But now I would have to agree. NWO puts a fucking shallow cap on anything MTG could even attempt

Sush
That would ruin their whole argument

Are you fucking autistic? He replied to a comment asking how YuGiOh did it and why it was a bad idea.

What fucking lgs makes its dosh on power nine sales?

Oh, you're the same inept retard using non-sequitur incorrectly.

Shitting up other peoples replies too?

Good job!

I wish I knew a language to insult you in that you could comprehend.

No, He brought up YGO in relation to MTG
and I asked how that was relevant to MTG when their secondary markets function on different drivers

I'm not autist, you're just illiterate

non-sequitur just means that it does not follow

shut up autist

you first asshole