Mfw after reading the last church

That just makes the priest a double retard for sticking his fingers in his ears and going NOOOO NOOO MY GOD CAN'T BE RETARDED

He's worse than Luke Skywalker.

Not all humans are fanatics.

'You two knife-ears or something?

>implying he was wrong

If you are going to eliminate all violence, eliminating religion has to be a part of that.

Full stop.

Period.

End of discussion.

Maybe it was stupid to eliminate religion first and not other, more immediate and more often violent things, but you're still going to have to get rid of opposing religions.

Wars for religion are only a premise for economic conflicts. Religious people are tools to be used, not the active power initiating the whole process and applying force to said tool. Maybe, you are too young to understand that.

You are never going to eliminate all intrahuman violence short of some kind of lobotomy or mind control to get everyone thinking alike. Religious values are no different from any sort of other ideology in that regard, and you don't see Emps campaigning against economic systems or aesthetics or anything else.

He acts with all the reflection of a le tiptip Reddit atheist parody.

In a way you're right, but that's because to eliminate all conflict means you have to remove anything that anyone could disagree on. Everything from national loyalty to racial pride to fucking sports teams can cause violence.

You can't be more retarded than retarded god.

Then maybe you should stop harping on "the Emperor is retarded for trying to remove religion" and start saying "the Emperor is retarded for trying to remove all violence"

>you don't see Emps campaigning against economic systems or aesthetics or anything else

Yeah, you kind of do, actually. Were you not aware 40k ended up with a completely different set of economy and aesthetic? Everything has skulls and the Mechanicus supplies the Imperium with everything and the marines and regiments pay tithes, etc.

...

People who whine about the Emperor being retarded or making bad choices tend to be far stupider as evidenced by the fact that they can't see the logic behind the Emperor's actions. I bet you complained about the "Martha" thing in Batman vs. Superman.

>Were you not aware 40k ended up with a completely different set of economy and aesthetic?
Prove it. Imperium has feudal worlds, capitalist worlds, planned economy worlds, etc.

>DESPITE being religious, not BECAUSE OF IT.

This is a pretty retarded way of seeing it. Religion isn't some magic toggle that turns most people violent.

Stop posting any time

Not eliminating all religion, but eliminating all religion except for one religion, sans spirituality.

Religion is just really deep-rooted culture, and can be used for benefit.

>Dresses like a god
>Talks like a god
>Behaves like a god
>Sends a bunch of religi- !!SCIENTIFIC!! fanatics across the galaxy to subjugate unbeli- other civilizations
>Is generally every criticism levied against the old testament god with a fresh coat of anti-theistic paint and fueled by 40k's penchant for cranking everything up to eleven

Stop worshiping meeeeeeeee!

Also, I read that whole story and when a mother fucker actually tells someone that religion has killed more people than politics (while actively,at that moment, killing people in the name of politics), there is no fedora gif on the internet that can describe the stupidity.

God works in mysterious ways. Especially when Games Workshop makes up the biggest ass pull in writing history by saying that chaos is made stronger merely by being aware of it.

Seriously, not even the primarchs? The entire backstory would have gone a hell of a lot better if 20 people could have been informed of their actual enemy by a father that supposedly loves reason and the pursuit of knowledge.

>Then maybe you should stop harping on "the Emperor is retarded for trying to remove religion" and start saying "the Emperor is retarded for trying to remove all violence"

Did you read the story? Emps is trying to remove all religion precisely because in his views, it's responsible for nothing but people killing each other, which is a retarded as fuck argument.

>Yeah, you kind of do, actually. Were you not aware 40k ended up with a completely different set of economy and aesthetic?

The IoM decentralizes almost all of that stuff to individual worlds to do with as they please, as long as the tithes to the Imperium itself keep flowing. You don't have an Emperor handed down YOU MUST LIKE THIS KIND OF ART, YOU WILL STRUCTURE YOUR ECONOMY WITH THIS MUCH IN THE SERVICE SECTOR AND THIS MUCH IN MANUFACTURING.

Something I like is that despite being one of the most alien beings in the setting the Emperor still gets to call himself human

This is all a result of GW ripping off Muad'Dib's jihad with none of the context and not retconning it somehow once the setting became "serious"

He tried getting rid of all religion because one of the writers was an atheist and thought it would be cool. Not really much more to it. You have to be purposely dense not to understand the human need for religion, or it's ability for control when used as a tool of control. You would also have to be dense to think you could get rid of it. The Emperor is retarded because the setting sometimes demands it, but also because the authors are retarded.

Also the Last Church is hot garbage. The priest dedicating his life to God because he misinterpreted the Emperor to be Christ was fine, but after that it gets bad. The arguments the Emperor uses are something a teenager who reads Dawkins would use, and the priest has to be the literal stupidest catholic priest in the world not to be able to argue it (that's because of the writer really), there are honestly better arguments both sides could have been using and if he wasn't going to put effort into it why include that part at all. Also literally who was clock?

Like, a broken clock prophesied to signal the end of the world when it chimes suddenly chiming when your Militant Atheist Superhuman burns down the last church in the world in a setting where God doesn't exist only creates questions. Was it fucking Cheogorath? Or am I, the reader, supposed to assume that burning down the last Catholic church marked the actual biblical apocalypse? Because that just makes me question your settings whole metaphysics and not in a good way. Getting the story signed by Dawkins was another thing, I honestly have no idea what he was trying to convey when he wrote that story.

>Getting the story signed by Dawkins was another thing
What

The Emperor isn't an atheist, he knows there are Gods and is lying about them.

This whole religion vs atheism shit is moot because gods exist in the 40k universe and the Emperor was just lying about it. Why he was lying is the debate.

Imagine how cool things would be if he just got everyone to worship the laughing god.

He tweeted a picture of him with Dawkins and said he got The Last Church signed. Which was funny because it threw what little regard the story had under the bus because now it doesn't make any sense.

Point of order the Emperor isn't removing religion to prevent violence and division, that's a lie and an excuse. He tries to remove religion to weaken Chaos, because the four powers feed off of faith and belief.

He's still retarded, but not for the reasons you think he is. He lies to the priest because remember the Emperor doesn't tell anyone about CHAOS, not even his own sons and we know how that turns out.

>suppressing knowledge of Chaos is retarded

It's kind of been proven to be smarter than the alternative.

Which begs the question as to why he'd even bother. Just send the Thunder warriors to burn the place down and be done with it.

>they feed off faith in belief

You know even atheists have faith and belief. They're just in other things besides gods. You literally cannot get rid of faith or belief. It's like trying to get rid of hope.

And why even argue about it with the guy then. Why not just burn the church down? The whole thing wasn't just an exercise in futility , it made no fucking sense.

Seems pretty obvious to me. After watching humans fuck up constantly for literally tens of thousands of years, he doesn't believe they can know about the presence of the Chaos Gods and not worship them, so he tells them there's no Gods and nothing out there to worship.

>He tries to remove religion to weaken Chaos, because the four powers feed off of faith and belief.
They feed on emotions and passions, not faith, and promote cultists for their deeds, not faith and devotion. I'm fairly certain that the most powerful daemon prince of Khorne was Genghis Khan and he massacred thousands without any concern for his or their religious beliefs. And we know that this "suppress faith and knowledge to weaken Chaos" never works in 40k and always does the opposite.

So, is 15 hours a better story than the last church?

It has
>stalingrad
>orks
>grots
>melee
>comfy planet

Faith leads to deeds. A wishy washy cultist who's on the fence ain't gonna do shit.

It's probably why we have the Be'lakor/Undivided fiasco these days.

>And we know that this "suppress faith and knowledge to weaken Chaos" never works in 40k and always does the opposite.

Chaos cults spring up even with the repression. Imagine how common they'd be if they were common knowledge. Just look at how many worlds rebel against the Imperium for non-Chaos reasons.

We know in hindsight it doesn't work. Remeber the Emperors biggest flaw is he believes he is absolutely right, can see no one else's view, and if people would just do what he said things would be fine. He's a narcissist who has the godlike powers to back it up, he's Gilgamesh or Ozymandias or Light.

To his autistic mind, he's being NICE and HELPFUL by explaining to this stubborn, stupid man that religion is faffle and only logic and serene emotionlessness will save humanity. The Emperor expects humanity to all be autistic ubermenches like him, he wants to fundamentally change and evolve the species.

Someone who had lived that long should have had acquired a sense for long-term planning, besides having seen governments in the past try to do pretty much the same things and failing miserably, and realized that his plan was dumb and would fall apart. Thinking he could succeed because of having supersoldiers and bigger guns would be even dumber. The only thing WORSE for this "no religion, ever" plan would be to choose the form of a shiny invincible giant clad in golden armor

Except he's right. The narrator already says humanity is involving into a psychic race. You can't just do what you've already been doing. Humanity left to its own devices had already destroyed itself not once, not twice, but more than THREE separate instances.

Call the Emperor flawed all you want, but humanity is even worse off without him.

>Full stop.
>Period.
>End of discussion.

Well, I for one am convinced by the overwhelming weight of evidence displayed here.

Does religion cause violence? Yes. We have millions of historical data to prove it.

Therefore, to remove violence, one most remove the causes of violence, of which religion is one of many.

It's simple facts and logic.

I concern that point. After all, the central point of 40k is that for how fucked up it is, the IoM is still THE ACTUAL BEST THAT CAN BE DONE

That's how fucked up the universe is supposed to be

*concede

A lot of things lead to deeds. Love, hate, fear, greed, lust, pride, hope, jealousy. All common reasons to do things. Faith is just another one. It's a flimsy argument.

You know what's funny about that, humanity was never greater than when it wasn't under the Emperor. Sure we Men of Iron'd our self, but we had done something like that before and rebounded just fucking fine. The Emperor set everything on course for destruction and technological stagnation that could do nothing to stop the former. He ended up creating the very vast hosts of chaos himself, as well as giving them their most powerful converts.

>Therefore, to remove violence, one most remove the causes of violence, of which religion is one of many.

*tips fedora*

So how do you do that without causing even more violence? Do you have compelling evidence than some sort of religion or belief system is not a intrinsic part of human civilization, and that it is a problem that can be solved by getting your zealots to kill everyone who disagrees with you and all but declaring yourself a god?

I'm genuinely curious to know which instances? I can only think of Men of Iron/Stone and having to go Butlerian Jihad on their shiny, metal asses.

I agree that without the Emperor's (mostly failed) attempt humanity would have probably fucked themselves up with a Fall of the Eldar style doomsday as they evolve fully into a psychic race.

you know what else causes death and suffering? Lots of people. Maybe the emperor should have gone on a genocide spree.

>implying I'm a god just because I have a glowing halo
Man people sure are stupid amirite?

>So how do you do that without causing even more violence?

I think the Emperor is utilitarian enough to believe killing X people to save X+1 people is morally upright.

And how is killing a lot of people in any way a long term solution to religion?

>Does religion cause violence? Yes.

No. Humans being stupid, greedy, selfish, power-hungry, irrational creatures causes violence. If you remove religion, we'll just find other reasons to kill each other.

>we'll just find other reasons to kill each other

You basically just admitted religion was a reason people caused violence.

He did that two two recovering Terran societies because they where too religious for him after they surrendered.

Hey, The Emperor is Hitler. I get it now.

>Utilitarian enough
>Utilitarianism is a civilization of production and of use, a civilization of things and not of persons, a civilization in which persons are used in the same way as things are used.

I think I'm starting to get the setting now.

He also said that destroying religion was pointless and ultimately a useless outburst of violence, what you're supposedly trying to avoid

The root cause of violence is human nature. We will always be violent. We'll just find different ways to excuse and justify it. If we can't kill people because God says so, we'll just find another reason.

The Ruinous Powers aren't gods.
They have godlike power. They demand worship.
That doesn't make them gods. They are incredibly powerful extradimensional parasites.

>If you are going to eliminate all violence

The only way to do that would be do amputate the limbs of all humanity and stick them in matrix pods, and even then they would still engage in matrix-violence.

>He did that two two recovering Terran societies because they where too religious for him after they surrendered.
>Hey, The Emperor is Hitler. I get it now.
no he is an autist who wants people to get on his functionally immortal, virtually omnipotent level.
He plans around the strongest, not around the weakest.

Muad'Dib, of course, did not attempt to eliminate religion because he was smarter than an edgy 13-year-old

>He plans around the strongest, not around the weakest.

So you're telling me he is killing people who are in his mind weaker than him in order to further humanity into one of a perfect race? People he blames for humanity not being perfect already?

So literally Hitler?

>You basically just admitted religion was a reason people caused violence.
Most of us call it Islam.

only unlike hitler who was a bitter half jew, big E was around for all of humanity's development, and the best idea he had was to use violence randomly. Why not kill most of the species, letting the most psychically advanced subspecies stay alive and lead them into a glorious victory?

>christianity dindu nuffin.
>jesus was a man of peace.

The Emperor made exactly 2 mistakes.
1. He loved Horus as a son and could not see past this love.
2. He expected the people around him to trust in the grand design that only he could see, and be halfway competent about it.

As I recall, I said nothing about Christianity. That's a mighty fine straw man, though.
What I did say is that no one can keep a straight face while denying that Islam causes violence.

Only he didn't do that. He just killed people who thought differently. Ironically, it was space magic that made people more like him. Who he then had killed.

Also. Jesus literally was a man of peace. Even his one act of violence didn't result in anyone getting hurt.

>Also. Jesus literally was a man of peace. Even his one act of violence didn't result in anyone getting hurt.
And he was part of a society that was a roman client state that didn't have utter violence as the norm as late antiquity arabia.
No argument from me there.

Are you stupid? There where multiple violent revolutions during his life in the area he lived in. The Zealots where quite literally terrorists advocating violence, and the governor of the Provence was told by the Emperor he would be killed if he incited the Jews to violent riot again, because he did it twice for fun. And all that's historical bub.

Even in the bible the disciples carried swords.

yes, and it wasn't close enough to post roman arabia which was mad max tier with the beduin auxiliaries being chimps with less hair.

It we are talking degrees here ya, but it was pretty violent.

Fun Fact: Nazareth was like the Mos Eisley of that region. It was the kind of place they would kill you to steal your Air Romans.

>mfw he misses the point of the story this much

The moral of the story of the Last Church is irony user. The Emperor claims that he is above all men, that he is flawless and not like all previous dictators, that he and he alone will succeed where all others have failed.

Guess what? He failed. Because the God-Emperor of Mankind has a bigger problem with hubris than fucking Achilles. The Priest was right all along, and his words probably haunt the Emperor on the Throne.

But what was with the fucking clock.

I'm an atheist/agnostic and you're fucking retarded. Religious wars for the most part have fuck-all to do about religion in truth. They're simply Casus Belli for gaining more land or resources.

>I'm an atheist/agnostic
>and you're fucking retarded

it's one or the other you fucking retard, they're mutually exclusive

No, religion has no part in it. You might as well eliminate everything, since humanity is stubborn enough to war over anything.

>my face after reading the last church

>le smart men believe in my personal interpretation of an omnipotent deity meme

McNeil being McNeil.

Black Library authors who need to be sacked

>McNeil
>Thorpe
>Kyme
>Swallow

Authors who need to have some sense slapped into them/given a vacation
>Dan the Man
>Counter

Authors who need to be given the most important Horus Heresy novels to save the series
>ADB
>Sanders
>King

Authors who GW needs to beg desperately to get back
>Chambers

He is right. You can't be an atheist and agnostic. They're sort of mutually exclusive.

>what is uncertainty

king is writing warcraft novels now
Also, scanlon wrote 15 hours right?

I love how open to discussion and to the possibility of being FUCKING WRONG you are.

>Authors who GW needs to beg desperately to get back
>>Chambers

He started everything we hate about modern GW. I'm not saying it's all his fault because someone else would eventually have done the same bullshit if he didn't; but seeing him go made me happy as fuck at the time.

Shit. Listen, I don't know how bad the books are. But trust me, things are not dire enough that you need one of the Warcraft authors to come write.

He didn't 'love' Horus persay, he thought Horus was on his level, that he was above emotion and temptation. Because the Emperor thinks that HE is infallible, he thought Horus was too

Jesus was just a figure head, the Zealotes co-opted him without his say so. In the Bible he tells Simon Zealotes his shit is going to get Israel destroyed. Jesus didn't want a part of the nationalist movement.

>Did you read the story? Emps is trying to remove all religion precisely because in his views, it's responsible for nothing but people killing each other, which is a retarded as fuck argument.

Copy pasta. I don't believe you.

>Creed gets corrupted and leads 14th Black Crusade
>Marneus Calgar gets corrupted and plunges Segmentum Ultima into chaos, noble ork warboss sides with Imperium and Tau to stop him
>the Emperor gets corrupted
You know you want to see this

>The arguments the Emperor uses are something a teenager who reads Dawkins would use, and the priest has to be the literal stupidest catholic priest in the world not to be able to argue it

COPYPASTA.

Literally read the story.

>Religious people are tools to be used
this makes me feel so human

Chambers has penned the best fucking books of the Black Library and was behind some of the best Codices ever written.

William king wrote the latest warcraft book, about Illidan 'dindu nuffin' stormrage.
He turned him into a mega ultra dindu.

By the dictionary definition, they are pretty much gods.

And no, they are not parasites. They are the reflections of the human soul. His sins made manifest

And he succeeded perfectly in not having any, alienating the moderates and extremists at the same time, wich was large part of the reason He was crucified.
All according to plan, and to show truth doesn't care about political convenience.

Your glasses are so rose tinted everything must look like the gay parade to you.
He's basically the Ur-Ward: He started to power creep his favourite factions and twisting the fluff to convenience. Ward did the same but worse and while being unable to write shit.

Kael'thas did nothing wrong