MtG counterfeits/fakes/proxys

Why not? It's not unheard of to buy or sell an entire set of duals at once. If you're also using counterfeit Bobs, Jaces, Karns, and fetches, then it'd be a problem, but all of those are cheaper (relative to blue duals, that is) anyway.

Are we trying to get into Legacy for $50? I think $400 is a fine price point for Legacy decks, personally. if you want to break into a format using fakes for $50, I'd recommend Modern.

They might if you said you bought the deck/collection off of a retiring player, but added your some of your own cards.

And further, you can always fall back on "I bought this as a deck."

People already sell complete decks for a good chunk less than the sum of their parts. It's not really a stretch to believe a dude might sell Shardless BUG for 65% of its value, except with a shitload of counterfeits.

TL: I'm poor so it's okay to defraud WotC.

Are you saying it isn't?

The only thing sadder than spending $3000 on a stack of cardboard is spending $500 on a different stack of cardboard made to look like that $3000 stack of cardboard because you can't afford that $3000 stack of cardboard.

Financial sense 101. Seems you and everyone else who buys counterfeits doesn't.

It just sounds like I am saving myself $2500. I don't see why I should buy the real deal if the fakes look the same, it is not as if I plan on reselling them on Ebay.

>sad
I don't care about whatever social standing you see from owning overpriced cardboard, user. I want to play the game and MaRo has seen fit to drive me to this to be able to. Blame him if it upsets you. Or kiss his ass and enjoy more reprints of modern staples as 300 dollar promos

If you can't spend money on a hobby maybe you shouldn't have that hobby.
You are part of the cancer that will kill MTG.

>You are part of the cancer that will kill MTG.
>people who want to play magic instead of making it into a hugbox stockmarket for rich nerds who have a contractual agreement that their stocks will never decrease in value are the ones really killing magic

Sure thing, bud.

Stay mad. Maybe you shouldn't have put your stock into cardboard? Wizards, like any other company, has to make decisions to be relevant, and not reprinting cards that people want to buy isn't one of them.

Just because you're not trying to pass off your fakes as real doesn't mean the other 5 guys aren't. When there are enough counterfeits running around, no one will be able to play Legacy because:

1) People won't buy RL cards because they fear unknowingly buying fakes
2) People who run fakes in sanctioned tournaments getting deck checked and being DQed, leading to a drop in players not only due to bans but also due to people not wanting to waste 2 hours every tournament waiting for everyone's deck to be checked as a precaution
3) WotC will kill off what remains of Legacy at that point to stop the bleeding.
>not reprinting cards that people want to buy isn't one of them.
The RL states otherwise

Here's your rebuttal: I don't care. I'd rather your doom scenario happen and the game die out if it means I get to play for a bit.

What is Wizards going to do? Ban Legacy tournaments? SCG already killed their Legacy support. It really doesn't matter anymore. Legacy will continue with or without WotC's support.

>is happy with killing Legacy because he can't afford it
Cancer. Straight cancer.

Legacy _currently_ runs off the back of the players. And it's doing perfectly fin. But when the playerbase becomes inundated with poorfags running fakes (and as a byproduct, more fakes making their way into the secondary market) WotC will be forced to step in.

All you're doing is trying to argue your selfishness is somehow better.

>You shouldn't be able to play because I fear a doomsday scenario not steeped in any ounce of reality!

And my response is you're stupid and your shit's all retarded.

And they'll finally reprint shit. Or fail and go out of business as they should.

Okay. Step in how? You think they're going to go out and ban sanctioned Legacy?

>More players coming in kills the scene
I have no idea why you believe that making the game more accesible is a problem. If people really want to check authenticity, there are several ways for those who care.

It's not even a matter of who is better. It's a matter of who is legally in the right. The players that shell out $2000 for a manabase or the players that knowingly buy forgeries?

You using the excuse that cardboard shouldn't cost $xxxx to justify buying counterfeit products is even more pathetic than you calling out the people who choose to spend that kind of money on a card game.
They won't ban it–quit it with the hyperbole–but they might drop ALL major support for it and ask other stores to do the same. That means NO GPs (not even the ONE that Legacy players get), no Opens, no PIQs, no 1Ks/5Ks, no EW, no EE. Maybe you'll even get your "SaffronOlive No-Reserved-List" format as a replacement
Legacy is to MTG like a Focus ST is to a regular commuter car. You don't need to be able to buy it, nor should you feel entitled to own it just because you've been playing/driving for X amount of years.

>but muh law
You keep trying to use things you assume will appeal to me. I don't care about the legal right.

I know you don't care. I'm just showing you why you're objectively shit.

I'm not confident people will just drop the format because of the counterfeiters. If WotC drops their support for the format in paper, that's effectively no change. The only difference you're proposing is that WotC will go and ask stores to stop hosting Legacy events which is pretty laughable. At that point, they might as well just ban sanctioned Legacy.

As for comparing Legacy to a Focus ST, or golf clubs, or a nice bike, or whatever the fuck else, the comparison doesn't hold because cars, golf clubs, and expensive bicycles are expensive because they have some inherent worth and utility. A Focus ST is composed of more expensive labor and parts than a regular commuter. MTG cards from '93 have no inherent difference from Chinese fakes other than their 'collectible' status. But as far as the game is concerned, they're just game pieces.

A fake Underground Sea will tap for U or B just the same. A fake Focus ST can't be looked at the same way.

Onar Bargior, Dox this Cunt.

Do you acquire all of your music via legal means?

Ever watch YouTube videos of copyrighted content?

My suspicion is 'no', but I suppose these days people do pay for things like Spotify. Just curious, though.

Man, I really want 4 Underground Sea but I don't want to buy them, I want to trade them.

So far I've managed to trade all the duals I need for shardless bug, except not a single underground sea.

Getting fakes isn't an option because my LGS is super strict on that shit, several regulars own a vintage or 93/94 deck.

>Do you acquire all of your music via legal means?
I buy CDs of artists I like and I buy MP3s off of iTunes whenever I can. If I can't find it, then I pirate.

This is different from having access (duals can always be found for sale) but choosing to buy counterfeits as the first option.
>Ever watch YouTube videos of copyrighted content?
I myself am not breaking any DMCA laws by watching videos uploaded by other users.
>My suspicion is 'no', but I suppose these days people do pay for things like Spotify. Just curious, though.
I pay for Netflix, I use Pandora (which is free), I use SoundCloud (which can be paid or free).

why not just take a bunch of shit cards you have, put them in sleeves, and print off pcitures of the cards you want from google? If you take the effort to actually make a good proxy I can't see anyone who isn't a complete faggot getting mad about it.

The point is wanting to play Legacy for cheap is having your cake and eating it, too. If your financial situation is that where you can afford MTG as a hobby, then being upset that you can't afford dual lands laughable because any sort of hobby is already indulgent.

And I'll never see it that way

>You are shit for wanting to do what the game was made for, play
>instead of selling for profit as a speculator douchebag

I legit wish MS on people like you

Counterfitting is a sign of poor business practices just like piracy is. Wizards chooses not to fix the problem and there for it is not going away

The problem with this is that nobody needs to be upset to go buy fakes and play with them

They CAN have their cake and eat it too, that just upsets you, so you're trying to make them feel guilty about it, a losing battle

legacy fags mad they spent thousands of dollars on cards, while normies just use proxies.

If you're so good at magic and your cards have nothing to do with it this should not be an issue for you.

This is always where the hate for poorfags or people who refuse to pay 5k for a deck comes from

>I have no will power and kowtowed to the jews and spent thousands and felt regret immediately
>I do not like the idea someone may also be able to play and not suffer the regret I did

I'm not a dealer. I know ONE dealer out of the hundreds of Legacy players I've ever met. Many of us would be upset if our dual lands that we worked hard to save for are all of a sudden worthless because lazy fucks like you choose to kill the format by buying counterfeit cards rather than saving up like we all did.

I'll go to sleep tonight happy that my financial situation lets me play a format as great as Legacy. You're always going to be sitting there wondering if your opponent will call a deck check on you. Have fun with that.

You need to have patience to be good at Legacy. Adults are patient. Adults have jobs. You calling people that contribute to society "Legacy fags" and calling poorshits on welfare like yourself "normies" is a bigger joke than the Modern format.

Want to play Legacy?

1. Go outside
2. Get a job
3. Buy Legacy cards
4. ????
5. Play Legacy guilt-free

That's great. Good for you, law-abiding netizen.

Sure, the hobby is indulgent. That's not really an argument against making it cheaper if possible, though.

I have thousands of dollars' worth of WotC cardboard and I don't give a damn about counterfeits. I spent my money and it's sunk. I could sell out and buy counterfeits, but knowing I own the real thing brings me some measure of happiness.

Doesn't make me resent people buying cheaper-yet-functionally-identical game pieces, though. I love having people to play Legacy with, whether they bring old cardboard, fake cardboard, or home-printed-cutouts-on-top-of cardboard.

>I love having people to play Legacy with, whether they bring old cardboard, fake cardboard, or home-printed-cutouts-on-top-of cardboard.
Everyone is okay with home-printed-cutouts. Fake cardboard has no place in this game. You literally paid money to buy something that isn't even real? You can accomplish the same thing with Sharpie and draft chaff.

>Many of us would be upset if our dual lands that we worked hard to save for are all of a sudden worthless
Then you are cancer. You care more about the monetary aspect of the game than the competitive. I'd wish death on you.

>lazy
Where is this projection coming from?

>kill the format by buying counterfits instead of saving up
Literally proving my point. You are mad that I am getting into the format without going into severe debt and you were a retard and did it "legit". WThe format died like 20 years ago when the reserve list was made, get over it.

>I make my sole legacy deck the focus of my entire life outside of my job
What a boring life you live.

Well, the problem with that is you can't bring sharpied cards to a sanctioned event.

The difference, I suppose, is you view the pieces of cardboard as something more than just a game piece.

Magic cards aren't real either, there is literally no difference between fakes and "real" cards if you don't play in major tournaments

It's all in your head

You're the one who bought something fake you tard

The people buying counterfeits are spending their money on actual labor and shipping costs

You paid that plus a 99% markup for "official" (pretend meaning) status for your cards

How is buying counterfeits defrauding WotC when you can't buy the older cards from them anymore? As far as I know, you can only buy a lot of the catalogue on the secondary market. WotC already got their money.

>Then you are cancer. You care more about the monetary aspect of the game than the competitive. I'd wish death on you.
You sound like an /r/magictcg poster. I'm going to let you in on a little secret: it's actually possible for someone to care about both the money they've spent on this game AND playing in competitive events.
>Where is this projection coming from?
You spelled "observation" wrong. I'm not the one who can't afford dual lands.
>WThe format died like 20 years ago when the reserve list was made, get over it.
Okay, yea you're definitely a crossposter from reddit. Only they're stupid enough to unironically believe that Legacy is dead.
>What a boring life you live.
I have job which gives me money to pay for my many hobbies, not just MTG. Yes, boring indeed.

You can bring counterfeits to a sanctioned event and if someone calls you out on it you'll not only be DQed but quite likely banned. All because you wanted to play Legacy. What an exciting life [figurative] you lead.

So if it doesn't matter, why don't you go borrow someone's laser printer and print out your own fakes?

Entering WotC-sanctioned events, so if you cash that event you just defrauded them out of that prize money.

>You sound like an /r/magictcg poster. I'm going to let you in on a little secret: it's actually possible for someone to care about both the money they've spent on this game AND playing in competitive events.
It's clear which you favor. Your reddit boogiemen is noted.

>You spelled "observation" wrong. I'm not the one who can't afford dual lands.
I think I must have spelt fallacy wrong.

>Okay, yea you're definitely a crossposter from reddit. Only they're stupid enough to unironically believe that Legacy is dead.
Again, reddit boogiemen are not a counrter point. It's like you have nothing to say and you're trying to call out your Veeky Forums homies to curbstop that cracka because you can't. Legacy is dead as fruck, few can get into it due to insane costs and it's barely supported anymore.

>I have job which gives me money to pay for my many hobbies, not just MTG. Yes, boring indeed.
You think a handful of people making 6 figures can support a game? Good luck, user. Maybe that's why Legacy is dead

>Legacy is dead as fruck, few can get into it due to insane costs and it's barely supported anymore.
The thousands of Legacy players around the world beg to differ.
>You think a handful of people making 6 figures can support a game?
You don't need to make 6 figures to afford a $4000 deck.

>What an exciting life...
Responding to the wrong poster; I didn't say that to you.

Once again, I'm just noting the difference between you and I is that you view the pieces of cardboard as something more than just game pieces. Which is OK, but means that we could never agree on this topic in the first place.

>The thousands of Legacy players around the world beg to differ.
Thousands out of billions isn't a very good number.

>You don't need to make 6 figures to afford a $4000 deck.
So do you live in the middle of no where in Montana, user? You said you had lots of hobbies. How are you affording utilities, housing, food, your many other expensive hobbies plus multi thousand dollar decks on a sub 100k budget?

>Thousands out of billions isn't a very good number.
I wasn't aware billions of people played MTG.
>So do you live in the middle of no where in Montana, user? You said you had lots of hobbies. How are you affording utilities, housing, food, your many other expensive hobbies plus multi thousand dollar decks on a sub 100k budget?
Just because that's MY financial situation doesn't make it the financial situation of the other Legacy players in my local playgroup.

You only buy your deck once. Jesus Christ.

>Just because that's MY financial situation doesn't make it the financial situation of the other Legacy players in my local playgroup.
You were fine with judging peoples financial situations based on their legacy collection before

>YOU'RE A LAZY POORFAG IF YOU DON'T BUY DUALS FOR 2K A SET

So you buy a single deck and never another again?

Fuck I can barely stand playing the same deck a month.

>tfw your EDH decks are worth +$10k

Git gud scrubs.

The "Legacy is dead" crowd don't play Legacy. Why do you care what they believe?

Some fortunate souls can afford more. Most pick one that they know they'll like and stick with it for years. That's Legacy.

Yes. You buy one deck. Then build other decks with the pieces from that deck. Or trade for them. I have grixis delver. If I want to build BUG Delver, I'll trade my volcs for useas and spend a couple hundred on goyfs. If I want to play ANT, I'll trade my volcs for LEDs.

>You were fine with judging peoples financial situations based on their legacy collection before
Because they bought real duals. Are you really this stupid or am I getting rused?

>My god, you expect me to own up to my hypocrisy!? PSHAW!
You are bitching about the judging of financial status after you hurled insults and called people poor.

How about I just buy counterfits and do what I want

You can, then face the consequences.

Don't act like you're smarter than the rest of the world because you can't budget.

you can totally do that, just be prepared for assblasted rich fags to get sour because you're beating them at magic now. They're all pro and their victories have nothing to do with their pay to win decks.

I'm not smarter than the average legacy player because I can't budget. I am smarter because I don't want to spend $4000 on a card game, when I can pay a fraction of the price and get the same thing. You can keep buying the official cards though, I have no problem with that.

Let me put it in modal form for your Standard-shit brain.

・Legacy is not a format for cheapasses
・Legacy is actually not that expensive to get into. $3000-4000 in one payment is very doable if you have any sort of regular employment and financial sense (ever heard of something called a bank account?)
・Therefore, if you can't afford Legacy, then it is likely because you don't have regular employment
・Those without regular employment are shitstains on society
・But if you don't have regular employment, how can you afford to play any form of MTG?
・Ignoring that plot hole, rather than finding a job so you can afford Legacy, you think you're superior for paying less money for counterfeits
・>You think you're superior to people with jobs. People with jobs contribute to society
・But why don't you go get a job? Nevermind you can now have money to play MTG, you can now have money PERIOD
・You don't get a job because you're lazy. The unemployed have no right to call out the employed and what the employed spend their money on

Does that make sense now?

You'll probably still get your ass wrecked by someone with a job who bought into Legacy 2 years ago and has been playing their deck for 2 years. Typical Modern player mentality, thinking that just because your format is run by non-interactiveness that you can port your "proficiency" over to a REAL format that has stack interaction.

>the consequences
You mean none? Sure.

Unless you're implying physical attacks by overweight wannabe wallstreet sharks. In which case I am glad I live in an open carry state

Nice trips.

You're still a retard for being butthurt about random people not sinking the same money you do into cardboard.

I have a job and I could spend $4000 on a legacy deck

or I could spent $30 on the same deck, wth fake cards and go on a $3970 vacation, maybe with friends, where we maybe play with said cards

>poor people are poor because they're lazy
Does this fallacy have a name? I see republicans use it a lot.

>・You don't get a job because you're lazy. The unemployed have no right to call out the employed and what the employed spend their money on
At the very base levels your only ability against that is to actually attack the other poster. I have every right to consider you a scumbag for having a job if I wanted and your only way to solve that would be to attempt to end my life over your superiority complex.

Back on topic, what happened to Stoneman? Did he fold up shop, or does he still sell stuff under a different name?

>You mean none?
That open-carry law will come in handy when you get banned for 3 years from any sanctioned MTG after being found out for using counterfeits.
They won't be random when they're the reason why the format I love will die.
If that's your argument, then why don't you spend $10 on sleeves and use random basic lands + Sharpie and have $3990 to take your vacation?

Typical cuckservative, talking about 'muh gun' when it has nothing to do with anything

>you're gonna get banned ;-;
If that helps you sleep at night, man with more money than sense

You're the one that brought it up first friendo.

Basic lands + sharpie for every single card is ugly and difficult to keep track of game state

Printing out paper proxies to put in front of basics is a little better but still somewhat ugly

I have a large collection of real cards because I like the way they look, magic has great art and card design, I don't mind paying a few bucks for packs when a new set comes out, just to check out any flavorful commons and art I get

But when I want to make a deck that is good and playable in a defined format, there are cards with a price tag so high that it makes it worth it to me to find counterfeits because I prefer to play with nice looking cards but I have no qualms about cutting the secondary market out of the equation

what about me, the strictly EDH player?

I'm not buying your unsubstantiated theory that legacy will die because of counterfeits

EDH players are usually even more butthurt about proxies.

His logic is that people will sell counterfits and then the secondary market on legacy staples will die and there for legacy will die becaue SCG isn't making insane bank anymore. I don't quite follow the logic myself

my current playgroup is ok with them, and if i move on to a new one i was just not gonna tell or trade the proxies away, none the wiser

Then we agree to disagree in the theory that Legacy will thrive because of them. Legacy isn't dying, so it's not in desperate need of an influx of players or anything. What this influx of players (let's assume that many are using counterfeits) will do is increase the likelihood that these players will end up selling their counterfeits into the market, which will lead to problems in the future. All because they wanted to play with the big boys.

What problems will be caused by people attempting to sell their counterfeits?

Man, are all legacy players this fucking elitist?

>legacy is only for the creme de la creme, not everyone you uncultured swine!

Nah I think every time we have a thread like this the same lunatic chimes in, he has familiar speech patterns

Other players unwittingly buying them, then they get deck checked and subsequently DQed.
I wouldn't expect a non-Legacy player to understand, so I forgive you.

I'm glad I don't play legacy if it's full of stuck up douches with superiority complexes. Though desu it makes me want to buy counterfits to sell just to spite your community.

>I AM BETTER THAN YOU BECAUSE I SPENT $4000 DOLLARS ON CARDBOARD

I get the impression that because you think that's a sound financial decision you either:

1. Inherited a lot of money or a social position where you can waste money like that

or

2. Are a Neet who's rich parents pay for your hobby

>legacy player unwittingly buys a fake
>it was a good enough fake for him to not realize it was fake even when he sleeved it up for his tournament
>but somehow it was a bad enough fake that he gets DQ'd because it looks bad enough to be recognized from across the table in sleeves

dont let this guy make us look bad, other local legacy players are the more laid back players ive ever met

>Playing modern
>Got some nice chinaman proxies
>Ended up spending $60 on proxies, saving me $800
>Double-sleeved and I've never gotten called out on it before
>Even go to a sanctioned tournament and the judges couldn't tell.
>Ended up winning a booster box of magic origins by getting into the top 4 out of over 120.

We don't look down on you for not being able to afford Legacy. We get that it's a decent chunk of money. We look down on your for choosing to support counterfeiters rather than saving money so that you can buy the real thing. There's a significant difference.
No matter how "laid back" you are, you can't seriously be happy that people are contributing to the death of the game via buying from Chinese counterfeiters.

The less money you spend at stores buying real cards, the less money they have to buy other MTG product to foster the growth of the game.