Planescape General and Q&A

Planescape General and Q&A

Thread starter: What factions do you consider weakly-written as actual organizations? They might have a valid philosophy, but no real cause to enforce, fight for, research, and adventure for. They also have minimal incentive to join them past "we own an important building." For me, these are the Free League, the Sign of One, the Transcendent Order, and the Xaositects.

Discuss Planescape and the Great Wheel here, whether the original AD&D 2e version, the 3.X version, the 4e version (yes, it exists in 4e, down to the baernaloths, the yugoloths, the Heart of Darkness, Maeldur et Kavurik, Tenebrous, Pelion, and the Last Word all being canon as of Dragon #417), the 5e version, or your own original blend.

I am exceedingly well-lanned on Planescape canon under a holistic blend of 2e, 3.X, and sometimes even 4e lore. If you have any questions at all about the setting's lore, feel free to ask, and I will give you direct quotes and citations from as many primary sources as I can, unlike afroakuma. I will note when something is open to GM interpretation, and explicitly note whenever I give merely my own personal interpretation.

>Basic setting summary: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planescape
>Comprehensive Planescape reference index: rilmani.org/psIndex.txt
>Planewalker.com planar encyclopedia: mimir.planewalker.com/encyclopedia/plane
>Canonfire.com planar encyclopedia: canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Outer_Planes
>Rilmani.org planar encyclopedia (contains unmarked fanon, so beware): rilmani.org/timaresh/Outer_Planes
>List of all the multiverse's gods (contains all gods mentioned in D&D products, but also has plenty of speculation and fanon for mythological deities and for powers with few details on them): mimir.planewalker.com/forum/list-dead-gods#comment-58090
Old threads with previous questions and comprehensive answers: archive.4plebs.org/tg/search/text/"comprehensive planescape"/

Other urls found in this thread:

archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/46685891/
mimir.net/salt/coresalt.shtml
twitter.com/AnonBabble

Your idea on the Xaositects is an interesting one, although I would have the "chaos syndrome" be something that results only from deep and deliberate tampering with the anarchic energies of the Planes of Chaos. Someone infected by Arborea or Limbo should be different from someone infected by Pandemonium (extra madness) or the Abyss.

I actually agree with you on the matter of consensus reality in Planescape. The published setting books barely ever followed through on the concept or did anything interesting with it; only the Torment video game actually highlighted that.

In the setting at large, there are far more examples of reality being ironclad and absolutely not "up for debate," such as the cosmology itself, the alignment grid, what each exemplar type and subtype is like, and so on and so forth. I truly cannot think of anything non-trivial in the setting that *is* regularly shaped and molded by the belief of a consensus.

Limbo could strongly stand to emphasize the "free spirit, independence, individuality, and personal strength" side of Chaotic Neutral rather than the "randomness and literal chaos" side. Limbo currently buys into the idea that Chaotic Neutral equates to "so randumb," and its visual aesthetic is also much too similar to the Deep Ethereal.

The writeup for the slaadi in page 71 of Planes of Chaos: The Book of Chaos actually does a good job of making them *not* just "so randumb" giant frogs, by having them emphasize other aspects of Chaotic Neutral, such as personal strength. It would be swell for this to apply to the plane as a whole.

The Free League has absolutely no reason to exist as an actual faction. Its very concept is self-defeating: "a faction for people who would rather not join a faction."

The Revolutionary League is, in my opinion, reasonably well-written as a "faction," and you are correct in that it could be an anti-faction movement rather than a true "faction." It could also stand to look beyond Sigil at times, and attempt to tear down what they perceive to be corruptive societies in general, be it the bureaucracies of Mount Celestia or the juntas of the Abyss.

I do not think that it is just the chaotic-leaning factions (aside from the Revolutionary League) that are poorly-written. The Free League, the Sign of One, and the Transcendent Order all have dubious reasons to exist as actual organizations as opposed to popular philosophies, and none of them are particularly chaotic-aligned.

The well-written factions, in my opinion, are the Athar, the Believers of the Source, the Doomguard, the Dustmen, the Fated, the Harmonium, the Mercykillers, the Revolutionary League, and the Society of Sensation. These all have unified causes to enforce, fight for, research, and adventure for.

I think the best way to make Limbo a bit less "randumb" is to make it a lot more obvious that people can change and shape things with their mind. Discarded thoughtforms and various different conceptual projects should constantly be floating past - slowly dwindling away if they don't get enough attention. You could give the xaositects a really interesting role there too, as they could plumb the pool of "rejected" ideas and find things worth preserving.

I see two issues with this train of planar renovation:

1. A land of thoughtforms and fleeting ideals and concepts is the purview of the Astral Plane.

2. A realm where the mind can reshape primordial matter into physical reality and there exists the "potential for anything" is the province of the Deep Ethereal.

As it currently stands, Limbo is a discount Deep Ethereal wherein visitors can have an easier time shaping chaos-stuff into physical reality, but they get what they pay for, and their creations are transient at best... unless they are trained anarchs, in which case, they might as well have trained themselves to be ethershapers instead.

Limbo obviously needs to be a lot more crazy and chaotic. Chaos should be infused into every single part of Limbo, and there definitely should be some more stable parts.

As for differentiating it from the Deep, you just need to add more and more of what makes an Outer Plane an Outer Plane - thoughts, ideas, artwork, culture, etc. The Deep Ethereal may be full of more physical material, but Limbo should have far more art and craziness.

If Limbo is naturally extremely crazy and chaotic unless someone makes it stable, then why would anyone ever opt to build there rather than doing the same in the Deep Ethereal?

What is Veeky Forums's favorite Inner Plane?

The Sub-Sub-Elemental Plane of Ice-Cream. Man, that place is the funnest!

The Transcendent Order suffers from a few issues, their write up in factol's manifesto was mary sueish, and it's never clear exactly what they do, given that the sign of one and the hall of speakers is the defacto conflict resolution outside of the courts.

Yet at the same time, the idea of "Balanced True Neutral" makes a lot of sense as the basis for a faction, but I'm never sure what would be a better way to go with it that doesn't make them a bastard mix of the doomguard and godsmen.

The Positive Energy Plane is something I find fascinating, if only because of the concept of soul fonts tended to by spiritovore energons, introduced in the 3.0 Bastion of Broken Souls adventure.

The underlying issue with the Transcendent Order is that their core belief of "you should act on instinct, because that is in tune with the Cadence of the Planes" is *not* something to enforce, fight for, research, and adventure for.

Ideally, the Transcendent Order should be reworked into a prophecy-based faction. They should be those who listen to the Cadence of the Planes and steer society based on their knowledge of the future. This could be why the other factions approach them. This could also be a source of internal conflicts based on different beliefs on what should be done with knowledge of the future (this would be a relevant thread I had posted earlier: archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/46685891/ ).

Any given Cipher would embody a duality between two modes: "action without thought" mode, wherein the Cipher allows themselves to act in tune with the Cadence of the Planes, and "observing the Cadence" mode, wherein they more cautiously and deliberately gauge the Cadence and potentially attempt to disrupt it. The latter already has some canonical precedent; page 147 of the Factol's Manifesto speaks of the entire third floor of the Great Gymnasium being a "sensory deprivation room" wherein Ciphers attune themselves to the Cadence of the Planes.

This could help steer them away from simply being discount Taoists, I think.

The obvious answer here for Veeky Forums and Veeky Forums in general is the plane of Salt.

>sal/tg/

noice.

Though obviously Ooze a best.

As far as weaksauce factions go, I personally detest the Harmonium, and not for in-character reasons. They are "We are right about being right because we say so and being right, what we say must be so" the faction, with no actual underlying philosophy at all. Plus they're completely hardheaded (heh) when it comes to making enemies and keeping friends. They are allied with the Guvners, an arrangement in which they are no more than their muscle; and the Mercykillers, who actually can't stand them and only honor the alliance because the Guvners beg them to. And what do they do in Sigil? They're the police force! What a fucking guaranteed way to keep the Chaotic factions in a fresh recruiting pool, jesus. They're the police force you'd hire if you wanted to guarantee that everyone in your city fucking hates the police too much for order to ever set in.

I'm also pretty meh about the Ciphers. I can at least see why the Xaositects would want to party together, and can understand their philosophy. The Transcendent Order are just sorta there. You know who they remind me of? The Sphinx from Mystery Men: good at acting all deep and mysterious but really just lacking substance once you think past the "don't think past this part" part.

I gotta say it's Air by far, but that isn't to imply that I don't love all the others. A close second would be Ice, followed by Water. At some point I want to run an adventure almost or completely taking place on Air or Ice; for Air it's SKY PIRATES and for Ice I... have no idea.

Page 90 of the Factol's Manifesto does a reasonably good job at summarizing what the Harmonium wants. It is essentially an expansionist empire from the Prime that seeks to conquer in the name of spreading "peace and harmony."

"Peace and harmony" is their end goal. Their primary method is military might, and their secondary methods run the gamut based on where they fall on the good-evil axis. As per page 96 of the Factol's Manifesto, it is an LG/LN-leaning faction, but its LE members are *very* evil, to the point of dragging down the Arcadian layer of Nemausus into Mechanus.

I think that this makes them an interesting faction. Hardheads have the unified goal of "peace and harmony" to enforce, fight for, research, and adventure for. They also have the common primary method of "military might," but their internal disagreements come from the secondary methods they use.

Additionally, the Harmonium is unique among factions in that it is merely a branch of a much larger organization, the mortal empire of Ortho. That is another source of plot hooks.

Does it ever specify WHERE the empire of Ortho is on the Prime?

No. Planescape's connections to Spelljammer are shaky afterthoughts.

By default, Spelljammer *is* part and parcel of Planescape. Spelljammer and every other published setting (save for Ravenloft) cover what goes on in the Prime, while Planescape describes the rest of the multiverse. Planar adventurers are going to have to visit the Prime sooner or later, and for that, a GM is well within their rights to bring in Spelljammer material.

Planescape acknowledged Spelljammer a few times, such as the mentions of crystal spheres and phlogiston in page 5 of the original boxed set's Player's Guide to the Planes, page 32 of the Planewalker's Handbook, and page 160 of On Hallowed Ground.

However, the Planescape books were always reluctant to go into detail with regards to Spelljammer elements, and for a good reason: the latter product line was already dead. Thus, the integration between the two settings was minimal, even in Prime-focused elements of Planescape.

A good example of this is the initial faction overview for the Harmonium in pages 90-91 of the Factol's Manifesto. This establishes their home world of Ortho as a single Prime world. It contains no mention of crystal spheres, spelljammers, or wildspace. Canonically, the Harmonium dominates one world in the Prime, and that is it.

(Meanwhile, Dark Sun, which *was* an active product line at the time, inexplicably received plenty of spotlight in that very entry. Apparently, people in Sigil regularly compare the Harmonium to the champions of Rajaat, as if Athas's secret history was common knowledge in the Cage?)

In other words, while Spelljammer and Planescape are canonically integrated by default, the integration is minimal, and you are going to have to do the hard work of tying together setting elements yourself. (For example: Does the Harmonium have a crystal sphere empire? Does the Elven Imperial Navy stop by Arborea often? Do the illithid travel to Ilsensine's divine realm in the Outlands frequently?)

>Dark Sun and Planescape
I gotta say my favorite connection there has to be the Athasian halflings that made it to the plane of Salt and, somehow, became NICER and less murderous because of it. Shit's hilarious

I am afraid that Athasian halflings in the Quasielemental Plane of Salt is purely a fan speculation from this page:
mimir.net/salt/coresalt.shtml

Page 56 of Planes of Chaos: The Book of Chaos does, on the other hand, posit that there may be Athasian elves in the Egyptian goddess Nephythys's divine realm of Amun-thys, in the third layer of Arborea, Pelion/Mithardir.

A little known fact about Athas is that, even under the 2e rules, it is not especially difficult to escape from Athas via Plane Shift. (Granted, I am working off the rules for doing so from page 10 of Defilers and Preservers, a revised Dark Sun product. To my admittedly limited knowledge of the setting, there are no rules for Plane Shifting away from it in the original setting.)

The AD&D 2e cleric class is one of the fastest-leveling classes. They receive 5th-level spells at 9th-level. An Athasian cleric of Air has Plane Shift as a 5th-level spell, and needs never make the check for planar boundaries when reaching out to Elemental Air.

>If several persons link hands in a circle, up to eight can be affected by the plane shift at the same time.

The cleric can thus gather seven of their friends and escape Athas with a single spell, with no chance of failure provided that they try to reach the Elemental Plane of Air. If ever they wish to return to Athas, they are free to do so; they add their level to the d100 roll to breach planar boundaries, and so as long as they are reentering from an Inner Plane or the Ethereal Plane, they have no chance at all of being lost in the Gray.

Thus, a single 9th-level cleric of air can reliably and risklessly ferry people between Athas and the Elemental Plane of Air.

Thread question - out of all the official published adventures, are anything worth running? Are some shit? Are some great? I have no idea! Someone please fucking enlighten me

Modron March is fairly well loved, The Eternal Boundary, Tales from the Infinite Staircase and I think the Fires of Dis are all fairly decent.

The Faction War is the one to avoid.