Did World of warcraft ruined classic fantasy?

It's more a symptom of genericization in fantasy rather than the main cause, but it did help further popularize already overused tropes.

Fantasy was already getting too generic by the 90s. These days I don't even bother to look past the front cover of any new setting that's high fantasy with orcs, dwarves and elves. It's all the same shit.

>b-b-b-b-b-but muh polynesian elves with their unique reproductive cycle

I don't care. It won't be enough to save it.

It atleast ruined fantasy art.

Nobody has created a fantasy setting resembling Tolkien's since Tolkien

Depending on your definition of "ruining" classic fantasy it's either still around and kicking, just less popular than it used to be, or Tolkein double ruined it first and WoW just shat on it's corpse a little (so did a zillion other popular things).

How does 'classic fantasy' get ruined?
Its an idea, and whatever your idea of classic fantasy is, Im sure you can find material that fits the bill. This thread is near down syndrome level stupid. You arent very succesful at life are you op? I imagine you have got to be exceptionally stupid to think 'classic fantasy is ruined'.

OP - a characteristic shared by stupid people is being in denial or unaware they are stupid. Or absolute certainty that they are not stupid. If you have either of these symptoms, I have bad news for you.

Holy fuck that shit makes me wanna pull my hair out

Like daaamn nigga, you so thirsty for fucking elves you'll jam them into any setting in a crappy shallow parody of an IRL culture?

Fuck off

I think classical fantasy is an octopus made of cheese who struggles eternally against the corrupt bureaucrats down at Hank's Ole Fishin' Hole.

Probably this. So many bad habits and overused tropes come from D&D. The need fro elves and dwarves in every setting, overt spellcasting all over the place. Priests and sorcerers have to be different for some reason. The assumption that dragons need four legs and "wyvrins" have two and other Monster Manual style shit.

Fuck, I like D&D. I especially like OD&D since it presents itself more as it's own setting instead of something generic. But so many shitty traditions sprang from it. If only the creators could have been a bit more clear in the books about stuff like setting and tweaks to the classes and magic we might not have a some of these problems.

You're giving WoW waaay too much credit.

Warcraft lore has as much to do with classic fantasy as the Lion King has to do with Macbeth. A copy of a copy marketed to a completely different audience. There are some parallels but rest assured they are not the same thing, nor do they really try to be.

MoP was a pretty good expansion desu. after all the "muh pandas" comments there really isn't anything wrong with it.

Classic fantasy isn't ruined at all, because it still exists. To this day there is no fantasy story that is manlier than Conan the Barbarian.

Heavy Metal is a close second.

surely you jest

>dragons need four legs and "wyvrins"
It is so sickeningly adorable that there are so many people that think D&D invented the distinction between wyverns having two legs two wings and the general depiction of dragons.

I am not saying the definition was uniform throughout all of Europe hundreds of years ago because there was no uniform definition everyone used, but to say D&D is responsible for the current concept (and resent them for it lol) is like a child mad at the grocery store for the existence of veggies.

>Priests and sorcerers have to be different for some reason
nigga what? did you mean to write wizards and sorcerers?

Your taste really depresses me. The last segment of Heavy Metal was the worst, and MoP had a lot more wrong with it then just focusing on boring pretentious quasi-Chinese pandafolk. It had some parts it executed well, but the overall story was basically an aside, with little to do with the larger forces being built up. The Mogu were a joke and had to be retconned into importance in a book. "The villain is war and general mean-ness!" Yeah, okay.

Speaking of that, the xpac seemed to be designed around the idea of making half the player base "feel cool" again because Cata left them salty. The whole thing was an insult. I'm lucky to come out of it with the few fond memories I did.

>underestimating the influence of DnD on ttrpg culture

Kid pls. Adults talking.

Nah, I think he ment what he said, think back to Conan and junk where the evil sorcerer would be High Priest of Set or whatever, there wasn't always such a clear arcane/divine division with magic users

Why would you assume he meant anything but what he wrote?

The assumption that magic comes in "arcane" and "divine" flavours is a very D&D trope. It's creatively limiting to get stuck on things like that.

the villain was an old god that made Garrosh go full Hitler, it was actually one of the darkest story lines they've put out, Theramore got nuked man.

No, D&D did that.

agree'd but things change, and thats not to say you still can't get a priest that can shoot lightning bolts and other stuff. I don't think DnD forced a change on anything, I think people just prefer that division.

>It's creatively limiting to get stuck on things like that.
I disagree entirely, creativity can come in many different forms, putting limits on anything is limiting. to say a priest and a wizard aren't two different things is limiting. of course I have no issue with them being the same dude.

Why stop there? Lets blame D&D for the idea of slimes. Or half blood races. Come on user, you're not this dumb, the point is that they got all this from somewhere, and even if D&D had never existed you'd have been introduced to the difference between this type of flying lizard and that sooner or later. Have you ever thought that your desired definition is just shit, and not enough people share your shit opinion for it to matter?

Well we know virtually everything about dungeons and goopy/fungal denizens did not come from D&D.

>the villain was an old god
The GHOST of an old God.

We only fought its residual affect on the environment after having been defeated there by the Titans; not Y'shaarj himself. Y'shaarj is essentially dead.

So what we actually fought was a Care Bears villain that made mad people madder and sad people sadder, which is why the chill philosophical pandafolk were able to keep a lid on it because they were all so drunk and knew how to enjoy life better than everyone else.

I'm not saying we had to fight Y'shaarj as an end boss, mind, but what we got instead felt anticlimactic and was a significant step down from the level of antagonist we'd faced previously.

Which leads me to my next point: Garrosh was a JOKE. He was always a joke. He was introduced crying and died crying, and in between he got his ass beat by Cairne, got his ass beat by Varian, got overshadowed as a threat by Jaina (who actually almost did something) and was a mess of a character that part of the time the writers had no idea what to do with. So they made him mustache twirlingly evil, then pitiful again, and got rid of him.

Glorantha?

Only thing it ruined was orcs. Then everyone wanted them to be green noble savages.

well they aren't exclusive in D&D.

That being said, I'm not so sure. The cleric is a pure D&Dism, but arcane magic was definitely not something that originated in D&D, and was definitely something from, at the latest, stuff from D&D's inspirational reading list.

HPL, Tolkien, and Moorcock all had blowshituppicus mages.

Proud tribal warrior orcs were already set to be the witty subversion that becomes the norm, a la kobolds actually being super powerful geniuses that are better than you.

>step down from the level of antagonist we'd faced previously
You mean the boss fight where we had to sway side to side on his back? Let's be real here, user. The only decent threats in the game that had any sort of climax to their defeat was Arthas and Illidan. Nearly everything after was practically treated as a second-thought. Why do you think we've had an expansion dedicated to us fighting bosses we've already fought before? Why do you think we're having ANOTHER expansion with threats we've already faced before? At least MoP knew when and when not to take itself too seriously.

>a la kobolds actually being super powerful geniuses
Shallow attempts to subvert convention really fucking bother me for some reason.

>MoP was a pretty good expansion desu. after all the "muh pandas" comments there really isn't anything wrong with it.
>Garrosh going full on Chaotic Evil

How do you even survive Veeky Forums?

man you need to expand your imagination a little bit. If blizzard had rated WoW M like they want to it would have been 1000 times worse than that. They have to make the game appealing to kids after all.

Garrosh went full reich, in an M rated game we're talking blood elves hanging from the gates of Orgrimmar, the SS hordestappo executing people in the streets that didn't swear loyalty to him, Vol'jin leading a bloody rebellion against his tyranny, and the alliance landing on the shores of Durotar like D-Day. even when they got to pandaria and first discovered the Sha there were bodies piled up everywhere you went! they made the monkeys and the fish people go to war with each other, in that one cutscene hundreds died. MoP was basically Vietnam + WW2 in the same expansion. you do realize that Theramore no longer exists? think of how many women and children died in that bomb. I know in game theres like 10 houses tops but in lore there would have been thousands of people living there.

WoW is basically a brutal world thats presented in a way that young kids can enjoy playing it. if you try to think of how many innocent people have been killed over all the years the numbers gotta be in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions.

your pic made me chuckle tho.

>retarded orc gets told his daddu was a hero
>wins some battles
>thinks he is king of the world
>gets his shit slapped

I wouldn't say he went chaotic evil, he went Hitler man. Proud orc warrior seeing the horde get filled with elves and making peace treaties with the alliance. Letting some undead bitch raise the dead like its no big deal, ignoring the fact that she clearly has a hidden agenda. To top that all off your father was Grom motherfucking Hellscream? what Garrosh did made perfect sense.

There isn't any reason to think Theramore was particularly populated in the lore either.

He wound up doing the Pandas a favor and curbed Alliance aggression against Kalimdor.

The thing about Theramore that gets me is, the only, THE ONLY moral highground the Alliance has is that its reacting to beings that are, literally, green extraterrestrials that invaded their homeland, and then they start expanding in... the homeland of one of the few members of the Horde that is native to Azeroth and certainly the only that is totally inoffensive.

>edited because HERP I DERPED

Trolls, blood elves and Tauren are all native to Azeroth. but now that you mention it, where the hell did goblins come from again?

Name one thing Garrosh did wrong.

it must have been at least a small city, Jaina led everyone there to flee the eastern kingdoms.

For arguments sake I would classify a small city/large town in WoW to have a population of at least a few thousand. Around the same size as Lake Town in the hobbit, not the movie, the book.

>one of the few members of the Horde that is native to Azeroth and certainly the only that is totally inoffensive.

You were right the first time, in a sense. Aggression towards trolls can be excusable since the Darkspear are merely descended from the Gurubashi who are definitely bad guys, and they had a large conflict with the Kul Tiras fleet during the founding of Durotar (though that was largely the Kul Tiras being assholes and attacking the Echo Isles.)

The Forsaken were exploding their northern front with Mega AIDS, and the Sin'dorei captured and raped a naaru to death which would be like Muslims capturing the next coming of Jesus and beheading him on camera. The goblins were situated in Orgrimmar and Azshara and were responsible for making an atom bomb that exploded a night elf city.

The tauren are pretty much the only people who didn't do anything mean the Alliance, and NEVER did anything mean to Theramore.

Yeah you're right.

All I'm going to say is that besides NPC count and number of houses there are other reasons to think the population was small.

This

everything. He gets handed armies out of the writer's asses.
The horde didn't even have a port and suddenly had navies capable of blockading theramore and destroying alliance navies outright?

it was a full fledged nation in it's own right though. Like post second war stormwind tier.

There's some picture out there celebrating the anniversary of Everquest by recreating an old piece of art in a newer style.

And man, the difference just hurts.

It gave us space goats, which are great for porn. That's good.

It showed MMOs as a viable investment for a gaming house, which gave rise to a stream of a billion shitty WoW clones and innovation in MMOs is nearly non-existent and will remain so until WoW 1.0 is dead. That's bad.

It's got a movie coming out directed by Sam Raimi. He got paid like a motherfucker, and the movie will likely be trash. Call that a push.

Uhhh. . . what am I missing? Help me out here.

I was referring to the scale of the villains we'd faced in terms of plot relevance, not fight mechanics. And honestly, as shitty as a fight as Spine and Madness was, it was significantly more challenging in terms of coordination and fight mechanics than Purple Garrosh.

And it depresses me to say that anything in DS was "challenging."

Pre-nerf Spine though? I tanked that, and shit did in fact get real.

But yeah, the point I was making was not in regards to gameplay mechanics. Garrosh the character was a doormat that legit won two fights: Grumpy Pandamonk in a cinematic and a weakened Thrall. And he got his ass beat by everyone else. I couldn't see him as a real threat.

And Illidan wasn't a climax technically. That's why Blizzard tossed in KJ, because Illidan didn't strike them as being "HOLY SHIT" enough to carry a Legion expansion by himself as the BBEG. And they were right.

While Deathwing's on screen presence was lacking, he was no afterthought. Even in game. Compare the Cataclysm to anything Garrosh did. Deathwing felt like a threat on a planetary scale, Garrosh was a rabid dog that needed to be taken out back and shot.

The faction war is by far the worst thing in WoW. Upgrading it to Total War in a MMO where status quo is God was pants on head retarded. But what else do you expect with the f-team writing lore?

Being a little bitch with daddy issues. Being reliant of super weapons, writer's fiat, and being a walking, talking, no true scotsman trope.

He was a thug who had no business in a leadership position. I doubt he'd even make it as far as the Orcish equivalent of a Sergent.

Why exactly are 'female' blue tieflings almost always depicted with dicks? Is this some obscure reference?

Futafags would pay for commissioned futa-draenei art

>The horde didn't even have a port and suddenly had navies capable of blockading theramore and destroying alliance navies outright?

In one of the novels that came out around Cataclysm, it was explained that the Horde acquired their fleet partially from the Steamwheedle Cartel and partially from putting the Bilgewater goblins to work, they're the setting's premiere race for industrial production so if Theramore could rebuild the Kul Tiras fleet after losing it a few years prior, I don't see why the Horde couldn't assemble a fleet in less time with the race that's notably better at it, especially since they were bordering Ashenvale and had a big logging operation whereas Theramore is in the middle of a swamp that's probably not as ripe for logging.

I'd also like the point out that Garrosh having an army is no more surprising than Varian having one, especially when you consider during the events of the book Stormrage, the entire planet fell into a nightmare and were being murdered by shadow satyrs. Stormwind was so overwhelmed by the attack that Varian's keep was under siege.

The surprising part is how he suddenly comes up with one at the drop of a hat big enough to blockade an entire continent from a known super power.

>Being a little bitch with daddy issues
Explain the daddy issues. The only problem he had was shame for his father's actions which were based on a misunderstanding. He didn't cry to papa's ghost while dying (Arthas) or try to strangle his dad to death (Saurfang) or run away because DAD DOESN'T UNDERSTAND ME (Anduin) or WAAAH DAD IS DEAD I'M GOING TO DO NOTHING ABOUT IT (Baine.)
>Being reliant of super weapons
But he won enormous victories with military prowess alone, in fact none of his super weapon plots actually worked so in a way he didn't rely on them at all, he was just exploring them because that's what everyone in Azeroth does.
>writer's fiat
These are random words that mean nothing but I'd like to point out that Garrosh has been treated more harshly by the writers than any other character.
and being a walking, talking, no true scotsman trope.
>He was a thug who had no business in a leadership position.
Yeah, he'd agree, he even told Thrall he didn't want to be warchief and begged him to consider someone else.
>I doubt he'd even make it as far as the Orcish equivalent of a Sergent.
His victories in Northrend won him the rank of Warlord. That's probably higher than you've gotten in RBGs, Private Sniffer.

It's just futafags being futafags.

>the SS hordestappo executing people in the streets that didn't swear loyalty to him
That actually happened. Literally, if you walked around Orgrimmar during the SoO patch, a troll would run out and shout something like "Garrosh is a tyrant!" and the Kor'kron would shoot him dead in the street.

When you passed by the square, the Kor'kron sic Theramore survivors on you that have to fight because, and I quote, "They took my children!"

I kind of made it a point to kill them. Now that's what I call edgy.jpg

Like I said, there are SOME good memories I got from MoP, but the overall package just left me feeling let down.

Honestly I just wish the Alliance were a little more grey like the Imperium. MoP, perhaps more than any other expansion, emphasized that such is not the case.

...Jaina's self righteous tantrum notwithstanding.

Anywho I see your point. I'm not saying WoW couldn't be more appealing to me under different circumstances, I just wasn't very happy with what I got. That said, a LOT of people LOVED MoP, so I consider it a success in that so many people really enjoyed it.

>big enough to blockade an entire continent from a known super power.

But all he had to do was block off Theramore. The rest of the continent was fucked up by the Cataclysm, the Alliance fleet couldn't exactly drop off in Durotar and move south due to the big flaming ravine caused by Deathwing, and they couldn't drop off in Tanaris and move north because the Thousand Needles was flooded and too narrow to field an army. Plus the rest of Theramore was surrounded by a swamp filled with ogres, crocolisks, and dragons, the only way to get an army to Theramore without mooring there was via the highway they built, which was controlled by the Horde because it led directly to a Horde capital.

Blockading Theramore would've been easy. It was an entire ocean away from most of the "super power," and right on the door step of the blockading force.

A small fleet could've kept ships out of Theramore and the Alliance navy wouldn't have been able to use their numbers against them because it wasn't an open sea battle, they could've bought plenty of time for the siege. It sounds like you're just an Alliance fanboy mad about your faction losing something.

The Alliance does questionable things at times but it would have to get really REALLY fucked up to sink to the lows the Imperium does as a matter of course.

People talking about WoW lore make it sound so interesting. Makes me wish I had gotten into it.

Theramore was fairly populous, I believe. Not that it matters. If you use your town or church or orphanage for puppies as a major military installation supplying troops and material to an invasion force, why get mad when it gets bombed? Why?

Theramore was supplying Northwatch which was actively blockading ships traveling to Ratchet and mounting a ground invasion of Durotar.

Theramore was in the process of building a huge paved road through Dustwallow to move Siege Engines into the Southern Barrens. It was also the origin point of all the Alliance forces there who were attempting to push to Thunder Bluff.

And you're going to throw a fucking hissy fit because it got bombed? Fucking REALLY?

Seriously, I fucking hate what they did with Jaina. And I hate even more how whenever Theramore is brought up in-universe it's treated like a pointless tragedy that was apparently perpetrated by assholes that just love killing innocent people that dindu nuffin.

Like Dragonlance, which WC3 appears to be partially inspired by, it sounds interesting, but I'm more inclined to read cliffnotes.

>The Alliance does questionable things at times
The sad part is, when the Alliance does something questionable it tends to fall into one of two categories:

1) Events that you see while leveling as Horde that are never mentioned again.

2) A justified reaction to some even worse slight against them.

Before you start bringing up things that happened in the Warcraft RTS games, keep in mind that I'm only speaking in terms of the contemporary "Alliance of Stormwind," not the old "Alliance of Lordaeron" which featured the likes of Garithos, Arthas and Blackmore.

The problem with theramore is that the horde never got it's payback for that. They don't lose anything in the game or in lore. Jaina should have drowned orgrimmar

Actually I think Jaina's reaction was absolutely right. the only reason she even lived is because shes one of the most powerful mages in Azeroth.

everyone she'd been living with for the last 20 years was dead, basically guinea pigs for an expirimental weapon. how do you think the survivors of hiroshima and nagasaki felt? im sure they wanted every american wiped off the face of the earth.

they should have seen it coming though. having a military base of operations in horde territory while knowing that garrosh was a loose cannon was just stupid of the alliance.

its honestly a fantastic story with great characters. its a bit late to get into the games now but it would still be worth it if you like what you see. You can always just read the lore.

Oh and technically Daelin Proudmoore. A little nod to when Jaina didn't make me sick. Killing your own dad because justice and compassion is something I can get behind.

it never was horde territory. It was always alliance territory that was neutral for ingame reasons.

I absolutely hate the fact that theramore got destroyed. Yes it was justifiable, but it would have been much better for the horde to actually have a port long term instead of blowing it up.

Blizzard blew up theramore to show that
>lol war isn't fair
and when it came to the horde's doorstep, the alliance turns lawful stupid.

I don't think it gets any more questionable then what Arthas did.

>elvish genocide
>wiped out the northern kingdoms
>created the forsaken
>everything bad that Sylvanas does is essentially his fault

the dwarves are to blame for Ragnaros and molten core existing. the elves are to blame for Sargeras (you could argue he would have tried to take over the world anyways).

thats what I love about WoW, absolutely no ones hands are clean.

>Explain the daddy issues.

He spent a lot of effort and time living up to his dad, and dedicating his entire invasion of Ashenvale to proving himself to grom's ghost. He wanted to prove something instead of doing his own thing and being his own orc.

>won enormous victories with military prowess alone

prowess that he acquired through writers fiat alone. He goes from a mouth-breather who can't plan a picnic without Saurfang there to pick up after him, to the Warcraft Lord Creed under a year. They could have explained it away as him having good advisers, but all his advisers thought he was a war-mongering idiot too.

> His victories in Northrend won him the rank of Warlord.

He only got to where he was because his last name was Hellscream and Thrall has a orc-boner over him, thus choosing to groom him over other candidates. Garrosh was carried by Saurfang. You see it in the Tundra as Saurfang is practically beating the logistics of a single squad into him, and he still thinks pride is sufficient over rations, weapons, and armor.

Saurfang is the hero orcs deserve.

>That's probably higher than you've gotten in RBGs

Got rank 10 in vanilla and Gladiator in BC as a feral druid. I crawled my way to rank over the corpses of my rivals, more than Garrosh can say for. Garrosh only got rank because his daddy was Garrosh and thrall wasn't over his orc-crush.

only, he was the first guy to fall to frostmourne making him a patsy
thanks golden you big hack

People got mad that it was bombed because Theramore was more than just soldiers and warriors. A lot of civilians and children died in the bombings, something Garrosh was against prior to this in Cataclysm.

Really, the entire thing is just sloppy fucking writing on Blizzard's part to push Garrosh into being a villain because Horde players didn't like him.

>Actually I think Jaina's reaction was absolutely right.
Except it wasn't. She put Theramore in that position by overseeing all the things I said. user, you don't poke a tiger in the eye with a sharp stick and then act shocked and angry when it bites you. Her reaction, in the way she acts like the Horde is the only party responsible for the events leading up to the bombing, reeks of hypocrisy. This coming from a woman who, again I must mention, helped kill her own father rather than allow him to perpetuate a vicious cycle of violence that would put innocent people at risk.

If Jaina isn't even mad that the Horde attacked Theramore. She already knew they were going to attack, and if they'd attacked the way she thought they were going to Theramore would have WON.

She's mad because they did something she didn't expect and used a "cowardly weapon" to beat her.

As a WoW player who has done bombing runs on every continent across two worlds and multiple timelines, *for the Alliance,* I'm calling bullshit.

Bombs are okay but not when you use them against me!

I don't disagree with Varian's decision to try peace. His father and Thralls father were both killed because their people wouldn't give peace a shot. If Varian had listened to Jaina and killed the horde leaders (or tried to at least) it would have only caused a death toll that would have crippled both factions. The Horde and Alliance are just mindless factions that will fall apart if their leaders are taken out, they ass loads of other people that can step up and carry on the fight.

it also shows that Varian has a sense of honour, they helped him defeat Garrosh.

>something Garrosh was against prior to this in Cataclysm.
Garrosh was against bombing a neutral druid school that had no military significance whatsoever. Not one soldier or one weapon among them. Purely pointless destruction.

Theramore wasn't neutral and was THE major enemy military installation in the region.

Hiding behind civilians is quite a cowardly act. Perhaps Jaina should not have mixed her innocent peanut butter with her army chocolate?

No, she is mad because the orcs invade alliance territory, destroy HER city and they treat her as a monster for kicking the blood elves out. She keeps dalaran neutral until the blood elves break it's neutrality by actively helping the horde as a neutral body.

It was always a neutral place and the horde started the conflict. People get salty because blizzard tries the false equivalence thing when it is completely one sided because they wanted their orcs to be cool badasses like wc2.

you don't throw away all your men have died for and sacrificed to let the horde regrow. Jaina was right. The horde needs to be dismantled.

Meh. It's kinda like one of the big comic houses, Marvel or DC. There are some good stories, short runs and arcs that succeed in varying degrees, but more often than not the stories sound more interesting than they are because the fanbase is so invested in it.

Like other people have suggested, you're better off reading summaries than actual books.

pretty much this.
Blizzard's power creep is too bad

The horde as a whole gets a pass for theramore, but Jaina's decision to destroy orgrimmar is shown as evil because there are little orclets in the orphanage in orgrimmar.

That is cartoonishly terrible.

>you don't throw away all your men have died for and sacrificed to let the horde regrow. Jaina was right. The horde needs to be dismantled.
by that logic so does the alliance

>The horde as a whole gets a pass for theramore
it wasn't the horde that did that, It was garrosh's horde. We didn't punish all of Germany for what the Nazis did.

Arthas was never part of the current Alliance of Stormwind.

And Ragnaros was a Dark Iron thing before the Dark Irons became good for whatever reason.

>The problem with theramore is that the horde never got it's payback for that.
Alliance players got to literally put their dicks inside of Orgrimmar in story canon. They got a title called "The Hordebreaker."

Heck, this isn't even the first time the Alliance has gotten to sack a Horde capital city in the course of the game's lore. And it's made clear that if the Alliance weren't so morally strong, they could annihilate the opposite faction whenever they wanted.

It honestly surprises me that in a game that's balanced around having two factions, that one is painted in such an inferior light. What could the Horde do if Jaina or Malfurion just decided one day that they really wanted the Horde gone?

Fuck the Horde. The Orcs come to Azeroth, rape pillage and burn everything and then hide behind "muh demun blud" while they keep fucking doing it, and even worse shit like blatant chemical warfare and necromancy, and then expect mercy?

Burn them all to the ground.

>We didn't punish all of Germany for what the Nazis did.
Hahahahahahahahahahaha

no, we dismantle the nazi party and break germany up so that we can rebuild them as good people instead of being the teutonic menace in central europe.
no, the alliance doesn't actively try and hunt down evil artifacts or do large scale Biological warfare.
Only, they can do nothing. Malfurion is neutral to the extent that he stands there as his wife gets killed by hordies looking for cheevos and lets ashenvale burn.

The alliance doesn't get to sack shit. The alliance helps 'liberate' orgrimmar and install a warchief that starts stirring shit up in the next expansion.

I honestly wish she had destroyed Orgrimmar. That would have been interesting, and almost surely would have ended with us looting Jaina's corpse.

But that would have shit all over the Alliance's moral high ground during MoP, which would have eliminated a large part of the point of MoP.

>People get salty because blizzard tries the false equivalence thing when it is completely one sided because they wanted their orcs to be cool badasses like wc2.

Much of the Cataclym-MoP conflict happened because much of blizzard's current writing team (not the good ones who moved to Titan after Ulduar) are die-hard WC2 horde fanboys. This ran into conflict because most of the Horde playerbase rolled horde because of Warcraft III showcasing the Horde as underdogs struggling to survive, and the sense of family that pre-Blood elf hordies had because they were hopelessly outnumbered by the Alliance and had to play it smart to not poke the sleeping giant too much or too hard.

Then Cataclysm hit, and the Horde turns into a superpower overnight yet keep their underdog winning streak. They also devolve into a bunch of murder-hobos who only kill for the sake of the adrenaline high they get from it, not honor, not defense. The old school horde gets pissed because they didn't sign up for the unrepentantly evil Horde, and the Alliance gets pissed because they lose at everything, and get hit with the Lawful stupid bat while being fed this High King storyline so the writing team can cut corners by mirroring the Horde quest texts with a Blue Warchief. This all hit the breaking point with Thereamore getting bombed because the writers thought that the Alliance didn't have enough reason to hate the current horde leadership.

>We didn't punish all of Germany for what the Nazis did.
Oh, you poor naive child.

We literally tore that country in half, put guns in the middle to keep the two from mixing, let one half starve while the people tried desperately to just see their children or flee a communist hellhole, and then stitched it back together by tearing a wall down and then left them to pick up the pieces themselves.

The deer are STILL conditioned to not go near where the wall used to be.

>she is mad because the orcs invade alliance territory
Ah yes. Make Azeroth Great Again. Deport all the greenskins back to Outland. Rabble rabble.

And Dalaran is back to being neutral much to my chagrin. Can I say I'm not excited? Dalaran should never be neutral. The Kirin Tor should be an Alliance faction and should remain as such.

Making the Kirin Tor neutral just strikes me as lazy because Blizzard can't be bothered to give the Horde a decent analogue, so instead they get a hand me down.

Oh hi, Shattrath, I didn't see you there. Why am I in this Draenei city? Well that's a funny story. Because Blood Elves. Hey, that's the same as Dalaran!

Much of Europe was also against German reunification due to old prejudices and thinking that they haven't suffered enough.

I would say Oblivion and Skyrim were more damning to them in the more modern sense. As well as the Lord of the Rings movies (not the setting or series, just the movies specifically).

They were so generic and everyone went emulating that rather than using a fantasy setting to its fullest and having interesting things. Hell the big focus on humans tends to be the worst part of it all. Warcraft also plays this part with an innane focus on their generic humans, but at least it has the Horde throwing some interesting bits in there.

Much of Germany wasn't excited for reunification. Hell, eastern Germany still isn't anywhere as productive as western and there's still prejudice between citizens on account of that.

to be fair, legion looks really REALLY good in terms of worldbuilding and new factions