/tgesg/ - Weekend Elder Scrolls Lore General

Looks about right. This is the map I prefer for Akavir/Yokuda/Atmora scaling, though.

Yokuda seems a bit far away in this map, but besides that it seems pretty accurate.

>Told to go to Port Telvannis to meet Divayth Fyr
>End up pissing off the whole Telvanni council, sabotaging Dunmer-Dreugh relations, summoning a huge storm over most of northeastern Morrowind
What the fuck did they do?

Eat the Dunmer? You're all savage beasts anyway.

Why do you like Argonians? I have difficulty really enjoying them, especially since a large part of their lore has them as part of a Hist hive-mind, and they're just not as fun as Khajiit.

The prey... approaches

I like argonians because I choose to ignore the "hist hivemind" lore that has almost no actual impact on the game.

Not a Hist hivemind, just influenced by the Hist to some extent or another.

But then what else really is there? We don't even know what life in Black Marsh is really like, and most Argonians elsewhere seem to just adapt to other cultures. What is it that you enjoy?

But didn't the Hist call in all the Argonians to defend Black Marsh during the Oblivion Crisis? Or was that just the Argonians in Black Marsh?

Being that there are Argonians still in Cyrodiil in Oblivion, probably just the ones in Black Marsh

I've always disliked the way Argonians are implemented into the games. I feel like they would be a lot more interesting if we saw a lot less of them. They really don't seem like a race that would ever want to be outside Blackmarsh. I mean, they make sense in Morrowind because of slavery and all, but I honestly don't think there shouldn't be even a single one in Skyrim.
I would prefer it too if they acted more strangely or beastly and not to be singularly defined as 'muh opressed race.'

Also they generally just look fucking stupid, like seriously Bethesda, how fucking hard is it to make Lizard people look cool.

I've never played one, but they're pretty neat I guess. They managed to swarm Oblivion gates so badly that they had to be manually closed, which doesn't make sense to me. If Daedra can't actually die, why would they bother to close the gate after going through the trouble of opening it?

They act more beastly in Morrowind

They went too much for a flabby lizard look. Should've gone for something like a snake, have some more variety in scales. As for the 'muh oppressed race' thing, yeah, it made sense in Morrowind, but now the Orcs are the pariah folk and in Skyrim the Khajiit are banned from cities. Really, they laid it on a little thick, especially when it seems otherwise ignored.

And really, you don't see them much in Skyrim. The most Argonians I remember seeing are the ones working in Windhelm and a couple in Solitude. There were a lot more in Oblivion and Morrowind, like Dar-Ma and Hides-His-Eyes.

>And really, you don't see them much in Skyrim. The most Argonians I remember seeing are the ones working in Windhelm and a couple in Solitude
But that's the thing, why the fuck are there Argonians even there? It's never even explained it's just 'oh we have some Argonians working here for no fucking reason.' What do the Argonian's even have to gain in Windhelm? Why would lizard people ever think it a feasible idea to live in a place where it's almost always snowing and are literally not even allowed to live in anyways?
It's just fucking dumb

I just assume their ancestors were owned by Dunmer who moved there with them. They had to be freed once out of Morrowind, but they could probably never get back to Black Marsh, which is why they're mostly in Windhelm.

Slavery was illegalized in Morrowind by Helseth before even the Oblivion Crisis.
The Dunmer who moved to Windhlem have only been their since Ulfric's father allowed them into the city.

Shows what I know, thanks. Guess they just needed them there for the oppression then.

I made this :)

...

looks nice, user

It should have been larger, but messed up the scale, I like it because it's my first print.

Same
No that looks good, nice work

That's nice, user

What should I print next? It's hard to find usable 3D models...

Yeah, not to brag, but I'm totally an art major :^
You would probably find some similar models for creatures and use an exacto knife to make the final touches

>:)
>:^

Suck my wood elf horse dick
>;#

...

Wow, look at all that contribution to the thread!

Wow, look at all that contribution to the thread!

Well, they work at the docks. One thing that has been established is that Argonians like to live and work near the water for whatever reason. If any Argonians would live in Skyrim, they'd live there.

And what with the war in Skyrim, probably a good few people who worked for the East Empire Company were probably stuck without jobs. I think there's still an office in Windhelm. The richer ones left, the poorer ones had to scrabble to join up with local ventures.

But yeah, overall Skyrim tried to address race, but didn't really. In Morrowind, you were obviously an outlander. In Oblivion, everything was very cosmopolitan, so it was more surprising to find people from other provinces. But in Skyrim, you occasionally get to ask why a Breton opened a store in Whiterun, or why a Redguard is running an alchemist's shop, but oftentimes it's glanced over, or the answers given are dismissive or 'I just came here to work.'

Isn't someone missing here?

No.

Talos didn't exist yet as of Daggerfall. You could argue that his place was taken by Ebonarm, who wasn't a deity you could worship for some reason.

It's really weird because in a lore sense there's no reason for this to be so, but it also had Orcs as an unplayable race of brutes, so maybe we should just ignore it. Or just ignore all gods.

>Or just ignore all gods.
Not sure if serious or just Dwemer

what was the thing there anyway?

I think I remember reading something about this.
From what I remember, Talos didn't become a thing until the Mantella was used, the souls of the Underking and Tiber Septim fused together, Numidium stomped around, and then he became a thing and always existed.
I'll look around for a source, allow me a few minutes

>If any Argonians would live in Skyrim, they'd live there
Where swimming will cause you to freeze to death even if you aren't a lizard?

>From what I remember, Talos didn't become a thing until the Mantella was used, the souls of the Underking and Tiber Septim fused together, Numidium
This is an assumption created from the fact that Talos does not exist in Daggerfall but then suddenly is in Morrowind.

Considering people will walk around without sleeves or even most of a shirt in Windhelm, I doubt freezing seems to be a great concern in Skyrim. If that dark elf who insults you at the beginning of Oblivion is any indication, Argonians find the sound of water itself comforting.

>Hey, lizard! It must break your heart, huh? Being so close to the water, knowing you'll never get to swim again... You know, sometimes, when they let us in the yard, you can hear the sounds from the lake. The boats, the gulls. So close... No, you'll never get to swim again, Argonian. But don't worry, you'll be dead soon enough. That's right. You're going to die in here!

I'd find it interesting if their ideas of a pantheon were based around river currents and things that could mess with those. Anu would be a rock in the middle of a river, Padomay would be the water flowing and changing.

Yeah, that makes sense as I can't find any good sources on it, oh well

>Considering people will walk around without sleeves or even most of a shirt in Windhelm, I doubt freezing seems to be a great concern in Skyrim
There is two issues with this point
The first is that you seem to think Bethesda's unwilling to design clothing that appropriately fits multiple different regions is a genuine sign that people aren't afraid of freezing to death in TES. The second is that you assumed I somehow meant the above when I was clearly referring to the fact that swimming in a freezing river will turn you into an ice cube no matter who you are.

One thing I always thought was stupid about the Imperial City (and most cities in the games anyway) as it was presented in Oblivion is that it's all confined nicely within the wall, like a city that's thousands of years old would've never expanded beyond the initially constructed structure.

The waterfront has some shacks, and I'm pretty sure the stable is "new".
I'm assuming it's also because the real imperial city would probably have quite a few empty houses too.

I'm just saying that Skyrim isn't really the frozen tundra, except in its most northerly regions (and even then for some reason Solitude is unaffected). Most of the land is fairly temperate, and the clothing reflects this. Yeah, it's probably an oversight, though it's weird Bethesda would make such a choice, but considering they should be freezing on land anyway, there's probably some explanation out there.

Honestly it does make it look nicer. Such an overgrowth would probably make it seem like it was filled with a ton of slums.

Most of the cities in Daggerfall don't even use up the entire wall.

I tend to ignore stuff like this because I know its an in-game representation. I honestly like to think of the Imperial City as seen in Oblivion as being more of a display of what the Imperial Palace Grounds would look like (albeit severely scaled down).
Lore-wise, the Imperial City's infrastructure spreads out even to the opposite bank of Lake Rumare.
What slightly ticks me off is how all the art of the Imperial City just depicts how it looks in Oblivion.

Well, it's not like we had any solid depictions of it before Oblivion. And I don't mean the lore descriptions of large bazaars and such, but even a vague sketch.

Elder Scrolls Online does scale everything up a bit.

imgur.com/a/2SE95

Speaking of sound and water, Goodall wrote some forum posts a long time ago about his ideas for Khajiiti and Argonian music.

>"I thought they should use the marsh itself as their primary musical instrument like the Baka Forest People use rivers. And play lots of odd percussion instruments like water drums and bohdans and djimbes and udus. And make slowed-down bird-call noises."

Nothing ever seems to have come from the idea, but I like it quite a bit.
Here's some assorted inspiration:
Baka people water drumming:
youtube.com/watch?v=C7ba1CNOLiI

Then there's water drums, which come in a lot of different forms:
youtu.be/oun-u4myVUU?t=506

If "bohdan" is supposed to mean bodhrán, then that sounds like this:
youtu.be/dMI4X8OOMOg?t=10

The djembe, which is probably more well known:
youtu.be/W3tKFLafu3s?t=20

The Udu, an aeorphone:
youtube.com/watch?v=bpKo2YRKFYY

As for bird calls I don't fucking know. Go listen to some slowed down birds or something.
youtube.com/watch?v=bj36koXYJLs

Whoa, that's some tight shit user. Definitely stealing for my campaign if they ever make it to Argonia. I think I'll have the udu be a Kothringi thing, to differentiate their music from the Argonians' a little more.

I'd put that down to it being an MMO though. It kind of has to do that since the players will probably be viewing everything in a slightly more distant third person view. I don't know the science behind it, but that seems to be how MMOs work.

Feathered argonians?

>bird people of pre-Ayleid Cyrod were actually feathered Argonians

Thanks, user.
We do unfortunately have less to go in in terms of the Khajiit.
>"I wanted the Khajiit to be arrhythmic jazz musicians."
That gives us an idea of their sound, but without more information it's hard to make much from it.

It's actually almost the exact opposite from what I had imagined it to be.

Why not?

>Why not?
Because feathers like that and water don't usually do well together

Because Argonians are implied to be raised-up lizards, not like the dinosaurs and birds relation.

However, that would explain where the bird people on the island that would hold the Imperial City went...

I'm not opposed to it, especially since Skyrim had some feathered options for Argonians.

That's not really a scale-up I find all too relevant really. I mean it's cool they made cities a it bigger, but I'm not going to say that's how I actually imagine the cities being. If you really want an idea of the scale I would actually consider "accurate" have this shitty sketch of Imp city I just made on paint.
I'd recommend squinting.

>Implying the bird people were not Ayleids

I think a telling thing is what the Underking tells you in Daggefall.

>[character_name],
Centuries ago, Tiber Septim ruled the land and forged an empire with great Numidium. The secret of Numidiums's power lies in its heart, carried within the Mantella. It is the heart of Tiber Septim's battlemage. It is my heart. It is my Mantella. It is my Totem. It belongs to me, and to none other. I have won and lost an empire.

That last sentence is critical. It heavily implies that he is either Wulfharth, who ruled over the first Nord Empire, or Tiber Septim. You might argue for Zurin, but he was only a battlemage.

But if he's also a bit of Tiber Septim, then perhaps he was the 'godly' part of the man?

Tiber Septim is the grey area between Zurin Arctus and Talos.
>The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. The Oversoul was known to the world as Tiber Septim They gave birth to their Mantella, this time an embodiment of the healing of the Man/Mer schism, and, with it, Anumidum Walked. But, by then, and for a long time coming, One betrayed the Other, and the world shuddered as they split, and the Anumidum went berserk and created an Empire of Evil to house the malignant half of its soul.
imperial-library.info/content/interviews-skeleton-man
>And Talos said to the Arctus, "Let us join as one to fortify this throne, this land, these people, each one glorious under heaven!
uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:The_Prophet
Talos is Tiber's grey grim invincible conqueror aspect, Zurin is his diplomatic intellectual aspect.
>It heavily implies that he is either Wulfharth, who ruled over the first Nord Empire, or Tiber Septim
This is an interesting interpretation of this quote. While I've normally looked at it as Zurin, hence, "It is the heart of Tiber Septim's battlemage. It is my heart", but this could definitely be interpretted as Tiber Septim saying it was his Heart (Since the Mantella literally is the Heart of Tiber Septim). I wouldn't imagine it being Wulfharth since he wasn't really a thing in the lore yet.

>water has/is memory in TES
It's like a homeopathist's wet dream.

>wet dream
Ayylmao

Where did this water bullshit even come from?

Could be too.

Wulfharth is a weird area, because he's a relatively recent addition to the lore (at least, as a possible part of the Underking). And since the Underking is really only implied to be two people, Tiber Septim is usually the one of the three that's shoved out since he so obviously didn't die, so including him at all is honestly a new way of looking at it for me.

As for my interpretation of the quote, I noticed that he referred to 'Tiber Septim's battlemage' as if he was a different person, but like you mentioned, it is 'his' totem, 'his' Mantella. And the winning and losing an empire is fairly important there, since Wulfharth's Nord Empire did not last too long after his death.

While we're speculating, have you noticed the line drawn between Zurin Arctus and Arnand the Fox? 'Where Were You When the Dragon Broke' is interesting enough for that alone, since none of the other characters mentioned - Pelinal, Ysmir - are implied to have had other identities.

I can't find many models, most you can export are not usable for printing or don't have any pose. I'll see what's out there.

nice fucking perspective, user.

yeah i agree that scale's a problem but to be fair I've never played a videogame that actually satisfied a 1:1 scale for any city or even town

What is a god?

Breton mage here. My boss has been riding my ass, and I'm in the process of moving.
Sheet is pretty much done. Sorry for the delay, it's been bothering me too, since you seem like a really cool guy.

An Et'Ada.

MK shit most likely.

A miserable little pile of et'Ada.

A matter of perspective.

>But didn't the Hist call in all the Argonians to defend Black Marsh during the Oblivion Crisis?

Yes they did, but it was less of a "get the fuck back to black marsh, we need you!" And more of a "man, I really feel homesick...maybe I should go back to black marsh.".

Why are Maormer the best mer?

>Tiber Septim is usually the one of the three that's shoved out since he so obviously didn't die, so including him at all is honestly a new way of looking at it for me.
The Mantella is often called the Heart of Tiber Septim, this is because it is the symbol of the Enantiomorph that is Tiber Septim. The Underking is likely not Tiber though, as he is almost certainly Zurin. I'd elaborate more but I think I'm running out of space.
>since Wulfharth's Nord Empire did not last too long after his death
Wulfharth never actually ruled an Empire, he became King about a century after the fall of the Nordic Empire.
>While we're speculating, have you noticed the line drawn between Zurin Arctus and Arnand the Fox? 'Where Were You When the Dragon Broke' is interesting enough for that alone, since none of the other characters mentioned - Pelinal, Ysmir - are implied to have had other identities
Yes, learning who Arnand/Hans the Fox was is, in my opinion, one of the most intriguing questions of the lore I have a lot of theories/slight headcanons about him but I really wouldn't say they are true beyond my own interest.
As for Pelinal and Ysmir, they definitely have had multiple incarnations. Pelinal (the one who killed Ayleids) is believed to be the Third incarnation of his sort, and it was stated by Morihaus after he was slain that he would return as either "light" (Reman "Light-of-Man") or "fox" (Arnand/Hans the Fox).
Ysmir has appeared since the Merethic Era. Ysmir is actually its own divine spirit, not specifically Wulfharth (though the idea seems to be incredibly entwined with Wulfharth to the point where they are seemingly one in the same (mantling perhaps)). Ysmir is a spirit that has been with the Nords for a very long time, but the entire idea is basically absorbed into the universal god Talos, with the Nords basically believing Talos is Ysmir (hence why he is so important to them). The Dragonborn is also blessed with the spirit of Ysmir.

But they're not, because they're basically really pale sea Bosmer who didn't do anything outside of raid the Summerset Isles a lot.

Yah, I'm definitely not saying I expect the games to adhere to the full scope of imagination. I just wish there was more fan art that did more than just depict a screenshot they took in Oblivion.

Not a problem, dude! I totally get it, been a crazy time for me too. The party just arrived in Ebonheart, so it's the perfect time for your character to be introduced.

I thought it came fresh from ESO.

Tell me about healers, /tgesg/.
Why would somebody go to a healer when a mage is just as, if not more qualified?

Specialization of knowledge
Healers also usually have potions and stuff for travels instead of just a spell.

Healers take oaths to heal the sick and aid the needy wherever they go. Sadly, there's very few opportunities to do this in Morrowind, none in Oblivion, and only one in Skyrim. ;_;

Mages can do anything they want. Wizards inherently have no sense of right or wrong.
If you can find a nice mage, sure. If the village has a mage who does that sort of thing for people, wonderful. Still run the risk of getting turned into a toad by some petty wizard, though.

Great! When is the next session? What time?

I have no source, but I believe the idea is older.
I know Herma Mora and Sotha Sil both have connections to the sea and knowledge, but that's it.

Healers are a little more general, and you can find them outside of magical institutions - temples and churches being the major examples, but I'm sure there are many other places.

Despite being more general as a profession, they're more specific in their skills - mages can specialize in restoration, true, but they could also be mysticism specialists or alteration experts, and that's not taking into account non-magical skills. Though healers could be crusaders and have combat skills, generally they have the freedom to focus almost entirely on restoration and alchemy, and are thus experts in all sorts of ills.

It's kind of like how an engineer might know the physics behind a broken bone, and probably how to fix it, but you'd still go to a doctor instead.

First of all, you might not always have a mage available, and even if you have one it's not guaranteed that he's able to help you. Experienced mages aren't everywhere to find, and might be expensive to engage. Furthermore, it's not given that a mage is skilled in restoration. The magical arts make up a vast field of study, and only some mages will specialise in magic.

Healers are however found in temples, might be much easier to acquire treatment from, and is guaranteed to be specialised in the healing arts. That doesn't just mean restoration spells, but also alchemy and likely surgery. The Temple of Kynareth in Whiterun even has beds for the sick to rest on. So some temples appear to function more like hospitals, places where you can stay and get professional treatment in one location, as opposed to visiting a mage for a one time treatment. That isn't to say mage might not learn the skills that characterise a healer, but at that point there's no difference.

Whatever happened to Medical?
You'd think there would be more of people using things like sutures or disinfectant instead of or in supplement to magic, especially in places where they hate magic like Hammerfell or Skyrim.