Fighting an army of spellcasters

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Where do your war-mages get their magic from?
Are they casting pre-prepared Vancian spells?
Expending a magical resource like mana?

Depending on the power level of magic in the setting, it may be possible to the same amount of damage to a person with an arrow or crossbow bolt as it is with a spell, meaning a caster army wouldn't be that great to begin with.

Other obvious counters are some sort of element or magic-resistant gear. Perhaps have priests or clerics present with the army if it's a setting where those class-equivalents get "protective" magic.

Finally, depending on what "fuels" magic, you could just beat out the army through sheer attrition. Sure, mages can put out a ton of damage, but if you hunker down and soak up all those explosions somehow without a huge casualty count on your own side, how long can they keep it up? A few hours, if that? Once they've drained themselves they're basically civilians in robes.

Hang on. If I've learned anything from Veeky Forums, it's that a 1st level spellcaster can go toe-to-toe with a 20th level martial type.

It really comes down to how their magic works. That determines how powerful they are, how versatile they are, how quickly they can cast, how often they need to resupply, rest...

...how quickly they can move, scout, plan, whether they can turn invisible, how much of the terrain they can modify, how much can they fly and for how long, what alternate planes of existence they have access to, and how often they trim their wizard beards. Among other concerns.

"Spellcaster" is so generic it could really be anything. For comparison, if I asked how an army with guns could be countered, it would be helpful to know just what guns the army has.

What if they use non-elemental battle magic?

Like Sounds that kill, or localized gravitational anomalies, or magical regeneration and strength enhancement?

What kind of training curriculum and combat doctrine hath these sorcerers?

This thread doesn't specifically concern 3.5, so that needn't be true if you don't want it to be. And if you want spellcasters to be unbeatable then there's not really a point to discussing this question.

Nah they have to be at least 6th level to go toe to toe with the 20th level fighter. DnD/Pathfinder mages (which are the ones Veeky Forums always bitches about) are actually pretty weak in the early levels. For that first 5-6 levels they die like tissue paper and don't have any of the game-breaking stuff like flight or invisibility yet.

I've played a spellcaster in 3.5e and I've never run out of spells and/or spell resources even after 10+ daily encounters. I also had contingencies in place for any and all eventualities.

What I was saying is that there's no universal rule that says magic has to be that way, that's kinda just 3.5e. And this thread is explicitly not specifically about 3.5e.

>Sounds that kill, or localized gravitational anomalies, or magical regeneration and strength enhancement?
>What kind of training curriculum and combat doctrine hath these sorcerers?
catapults with rocks of varying sizes to see which works better, lots of little rocks or fewer but larger rocks.

Magic does have to be that way. Magic solves all problems, even the ones you aren't smart to plan for. That is what contingency spells are for.

If anything bad is about to happen, I get to use X-spell.

I hate to be that guy, but "magic user" absolutely, 100% depends on the setting. Exactly what the resources, capabilities and practical limitations of magic are, and what resources the players could have at their disposal, will have dramatic.impacts on tactics.

Since the casters haven't foreseen this outcome in the future and erased the PCs from reality before this encounter took place, their magic has limitations and specializations. What are they?

So we'll over-saturate against contingency spell in a way that overwhelms the counter spell and can't be countered by anti-overwhelming force spells.

>If anything bad is about to happen, I get to use X-spell.

Which is why wizards in myth, folklore, and fantasy are invulnerable and never defeated by heroes with swords and/or wits, right?

Science-fictional technology is as inherently fantastical and unconstrained as fantastical magic, and yet in most sci-fi settings technology is limited in power level. Just because there's no inherent reason magic can't do any particular thing in some setting, that doesn't mean magic must be able to do everything in every specific setting.

In theory, but a singular wizard can only have so many spells on hand or memorized, and the national library of sorcery isn't going to hand out Greater Demon true-names like Halloween candy now are they?

Proliferating military grade spells would be tantamount to dealing in stolen army hardware, but much harder to regulate, as a spell can be copied, so things like mass paralysis, cloud of death, chain lightning, and most or all greater conjurations are going to be state secrets or highly regulated.

They might hand out dangerous spells if their nation is under threat of being crushed through warfare, depending on how much those holding the dangerous knowledge care for whatever is within their borders.

>Technology does have to be that way. Technobabble solves all problems, even the ones you aren't smart to plan for. That is what automatic systems are for.
>If anything bad is about to happen, I get to use my X-inator.

Notice how, even in the softest of sci-fi, this is bullshit. Say, Star Wars: No teleportation, no resurrecting the dead, no Culture-style effectors, no matter replicators, guns only shoot laser bullets that are stopped by walls ...

Why isn't every character, despite having access to impossible physics-breaking technology and actual magic powers, a hypergod of ultimate powerlevel? It sure isn't because the rigorous alternate physics prevent it, on account of there aren't any.

And are you really going to claim that Star Wars isn't a fantasy story with a new aesthetic painted on?

In my setting, every spellcaster knows every spell, they may cast that spell infinite times, with no resource costs, and may so with all metamagic augmentations.

Sounds kinda lame.

This is either bait or you're an utterly shit GM. Either way you're a faggot.

What a coincidence, so do my setting's martials.

Not really. Spellcasters are also all futa.

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Hit them from outside the range of their spells. Most spellcasters have a somewhat limited casting range, which is quite vast compared to melee but nowhere near the range of archers.

Deny resources required for spellcasting. Trade embargos and siege can use up the spellcasting components, turning most of their force into just a bunch of poor soldiers.

Fight dirty. Assassins tend to be the #1 slayer of spellcasters, and if most of the enemy unit are spellcasters, then that means a lot who are probably lax on their preventive countermeasures. An army isn't going anywhere with their commander lying in a puddle of blood.

Indirect assault. Magic can nuke armies, but if you can open up a trade, you can probably take over their resources and kingdom that way.

Spellcasting mercenaries. If there are entire nations of spellcasting armies, then there are certainly entire bands of spellcasting mercenaries who can't make it in the army but are still looking for work. Beat fireballs with fireballs.

Range isn't a question for mages.
They also have no spell components, focus, XP, or gold.
Countermeasure stops any and assassins.
Same with other Mages in combat. Contingency against that shit.
Also contingency against bad trade deals, embargos, etc.

Of course you have contingencies but you don't have enough to equal the total combined threat variants presented in many combat scenarios. That's why you always lose in the end.

In my setting magic ALWAYS comes with strings attached most magic users end up doing themselves in after a time.

"There's nothing they can do that we can't handle!"
-Wizard commander, prior to a crushing defeat

>non-system specific

That means your question is meaningless. Magic does as much and as little as the game developer allows, in whichever way the game developer allows, and there is so much variety in "how magic works" that your question is a sign that you are too stupid to run a game.

Maybe there are anti-magic properties in mundane materials, maybe not. Maybe a person can counter magic by disbelieving it, but maybe not. Maybe mages die when they are killed, but maybe not. Maybe magic is just an academic discipline with few military uses and this is like a professor's protest, but maybe not. I could go on forever.

Perhaps, but they might as easily decide to destroy (or fire off) their stockpiles of magical WMD's and obliterate or hide their unique magics to prevent them from falling into the hands of the enemy.

Contingency can apply to any situation
If something happens I won't like, X-spell is cast.

Guerilla tactics, nonstop pressure and eating away at supply lines. Fatigue/hunger destroy any army just as quickly as any straight up battle.
If this is a D&D wizard army though it's over before its begun, honestly the setting determines too much to just handwave it.

Thank you. With contingency in place, a Wizard can meet any and all threats before they happen.

That's the danger of a single use of contingency, that it covers anything the Wizard doesn't want to happen.

What do you do if you get stuck in an anti-magic field though?

Or if you get hit in the head with a rock and mispronounce an arcane formula, or skip a vital sealing hand gesture?

These faggots thing magic is as easy as flicking a switch?

Cast prismatic sphere, Force Wall, or any of the other spells that are immune to AMF to protect myself until the effects are over?

>Or if you get hit in the head with a rock and mispronounce an arcane formula, or skip a vital sealing hand gesture?

Pump concentration so I can ignore it and cast the spell anyways?

You can't actually cast those while in an AMF, they just persist in them.

A smart approach would be developing a capable intelligence corps to spy on the realm that uses the magic army. Discovering and exploit the internal rivalries of the enemy is useful against everyone, but a civil conflict will probably be way more destructive and prone to get out of hands if all the sides employ massive amount of magic. Often in fiction sorcerers are depicted as being eager to fight each other for power or whatever, so if this is the case the internal conflicts will not only be more destructive but also easier to fund and exploit.

Hit their supply lines, much of anything else is going to depend on exactly what they can do.

Contingency protects against that.

The enemy of the wizard army can also try find ways to taint how the peoples of the realm see the wizards. In general nobody likes soldiers being near them, but it's always easier to hate the freaks. If the populace of the realm can be convinced that the magic army is there to oppress and harm them instead of protecting, the enemy of the wizards has advanced several steps towards victory without fighting.

Contingency can't cast spells in an AMF.

Actually, an AMF doesn't stop you from casting the spell, it just mutes the effects until the AMF is off.

Like, you can technically summon a monster while in an AMF, it's just that the monster itself won't appear tangible until either the AMF's effects are over or the spell's duration runs out.

Okay...

Mages can construct demi-planes of existence and can technically summon infinite amounts of food and water.

I mean, all that'd do is reduce the need to limit collateral damage and probably convince more people to join their side since, well, who'd want to fight against an army that can drop twin-casted fireballs from a continent away and incinerate a small country without even setting foot in it?

Shit, meant to respond to

Certain spells can persist in AMF's, but that doesn't mean you can actually use them while inside. You can't actually summon creatures in an AMF, they only disappear and reappear if the AMF moves on top of them after they were summoned.

You deny them spell components. Lure them into dangerous and close range terrain like jungles. Put pungi traps and underground mazes everywhere. Only fight in ambushes. Poison their food and water supplies. Attack their supply lines.

And deny them spell components. Without those they cannot use magic, if we're talking D&D here.

Otherwise be fast and vicious and attack out of ambush.

Make the terrain and dangerous wild/plantlife fight for you. Force them to come to you, where you can dictate the battlefield.

Spread diseases and viruses.

Be fantasy Vietcong.

Or get mighty allies like dragons, demons and stuff. And sacrifice any captured spellcasters to those allies.

Put boobytraps EVERYWHERE. Even in the toilet paper rolls. Especially the toilet paper rolls.

Be the dangerious, fast and vicious fantasy Vietcong.

Basically be fantasy Vietcong. Only more successfull and with less deaths to diseases, infections, worms and animals.

>Pic related is dealing with spies

Tell that to the empire who fought a Sun-soul monastery.
Those few monks blew away everything thrown at them with explosions of light, bounced back all the arrows shot at them and remained damn hard to even injure.

Now that i think about it an army of monks is far more terrifying than an army of mages.

>d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/antimagic-field
>d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm

>Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field.

Read: Unaffected by AMF

>You deny them spell components.

Eschew materials or just buy a damn component pouch.

>Lure them into dangerous and close range terrain like jungles.

There are tons of spells that allows a mage to avoid terrain entirely (Flight, Teleport, etc.).

>Put pungi traps and underground mazes everywhere.

Divination hard counters that and spells like stone to mud or shape earth will seal off those tunnels indefinately.

>Only fight in ambushes.

Again, divination wizards

>Poison their food and water supplies.

Tons of spells that either creates fresh food or water or purifies it.

>Attack their supply lines.

Teleport

>Or get mighty allies like dragons, demons and stuff. And sacrifice any captured spellcasters to those allies.

Why in the world would dragons, demons, etc. want to ally themselves with you?

Not to mention, I'm pretty sure that there are spellcasters that can take those types of creatures as patrons anyways.

>Basically be fantasy Vietcong. Only more successfull and with less deaths to diseases, infections, worms and animals.

Yet if you poison water supplies and food, the only ones who will die are the mundanes who don't have access to magic.

Whoo-you're pretty bad at this.

Contingency against anti magic fields.

Monks can't deflect fireballs or magic missiles.

They also can't fly, change into monsters, or even strike at range.

If they're going to be fighting with a whole lot of magic fuckers at once they'll need to at least do some intelligence work beforehand and know what spells tend to be relied on.

I'd guess magic missiles, since a couple hundred casts of magic missile can kill most things .

Defending against magic missiles is fairly easy, at least for a few adventurers, depending on what system you're using.

The problem with M.M. isn't the fact that it never misses, it's the fact that it can only be blocked by a couple of defenses that for non-mages will likely be difficult to come by.

Like, those brooches of shielding will only be able to block so many missiles before they run out, while mages have hundreds of spells to rely upon in the meantime that might be able to deal twice the damage and be totally indefensible

>>remain unaffected

As in they need to already be active when the AMF comes into range.

Sure, so what is your exact trigger going to be? You only get one contingency at a time, better make it count.

Contingency allows for any contingency. It also has a duration of 24 hours, with unlimited uses. Whenever something happens my wizard wouldn't like, I can counter it.

>24 hours

I mean, I know you've just been baiting the whole time, but at least try will you?

>d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/contingency

>Duration 1 day/level (D) or until discharged

Whose baiting who now?

>Implying I didn't know that

My point was that it's never going to last 24 hours since you will never cast it at level one, which shows that you didn't actually know how the spell works.

So hey, it's still you who's baiting.

Oh wow, I know you got proven wrong but at least keep the goalposts within the same stadium m'kay?

Sure buddy. Don't forget to tell me about those unlimited uses of contingency you have, despite it stating that you can only have one up at a time.

You should read Veeky Forums more. 3.5e wizards are unstoppable.

They are very easy to stop, you just have to have the right tools for the job. That is, you have to be a spellcaster as well.

Who needs unlimited contingencies when you can overcome almost everything with the right spell?

Moving goalposts etc.

You don't. Magic is overpowered.

I think it is very hard to counter such an army with "traditional warfare", if you really want a "non-spell" approach. And I don't know, how eager you look on the non-spell thing (for example, it also excludes magic-weapons and armor, and such things).
- "easiest" and most traditional way for a non magic army would be outnumber the magic-army and with a huge amount of man-power (and luck) they could win.
- Ranged weapons would help too.
- Other way would be some kind of spec-op style of warfare, with assassins, spies and some similar shit. But wouldn't work in a open-battle, and who knows what antimeasures the mages have against spies and assassins
- if the battle takes place in an closer area (like forests and cities) you could lure the magician armies into traps and ambushes, but how would that work on magicians

It also rather depends on the setting
-are there some "magic-immune" people (people who aren't affected by magic) in that setting?, and how big are their numbers?
- are their also some more advanced weapons in that setting like first firearms, or even modern weaponry like full-auto-rifles and tanks, or even futuristic shit like lasers and things?

Hope I could...