Dark Souls LORE THREAD

Strictly speaking since Dark Souls has a habit of merging realities, time periods, etc.. All endings and so forth are canon in one way or another.

Time is convoluted in this land.
What's considered "Canon" is most likely what the most common outcome among the many worlds and so forth.

>As to "trap" a god, it's proven in DaS1 that gods can be killed by "ordinary" undead, so it doesn't surprise me that a powerful enough entity could just eat him and absorb his essence.
I mean, the entire point of Aldritch being a lord is that he was chosen for lordship due to his sheer power and badassery, not any actual lordly qualities. Why are people surprised that he was strong enough to handle Gwyndolin?

> Who do you mean with sack of shit?
I think they were referring to Aldritch's appearance, which is indeed very... "sack-of-shit" like.

Can anyone explain the point of this?

wwwyoutube.com/watch?v=70GgyJAF8jI

There's a trading crow in every souls game, and the name is a reference to a non-sense 19th century childrens' song as a way of acknowledging that there's no real theme to what you can give the crow (the previous ones liked shiny, soft, and smooth things, respectively).

>The Link the Fire ending is also the canon ending, despite the Dark Lord ending being an option... why aren't you whining about that?
We don't know that the CU linked the fire. We know that someone like him did, though.
Also, the "cycle" stuff seems more and more like fan-fiction. Miyazaki might be saying that until this game there were never any ages of dark, and the fire never goes out. The "cycle" stuff including ages of dark is all Vaati and ENB speculation.

That's the trading crow in this game. You give it certain items, and it'll give you an item in return. You can get some pretty rare stuff that way.

I'm not sure if the trading crows have any real lore significance, they're just there to give you cool shit.

> We don't know that the CU linked the fire. But it's a safe assumption to make, given that we know the fire was linked. And the fact remains that Gwyndolin is hard to even find in the first place, so him not having been killed is still the most likely canon outcome, regardless of who did or did not link the fire.

> Also, the "cycle" stuff seems more and more like fan-fiction. Miyazaki might be saying that until this game there were never any ages of dark, and the fire never goes out. The "cycle" stuff including ages of dark is all Vaati and ENB speculation.
Aren't we told that the Lords of Cinder have each linked the fire at some point in the past, though? Admittedly, I only half remember hearing that, so I could be wrong.

they really had no significance since demon souls, other than probably being the offspring of that dark souls 1 giant crow

No, that's actually a current point of rabid contention among the fanbase. We know some did, others may not have. Also, the Soul of Cinder isn't necessarily the CU, he could have gotten those movesets from anywhere.

>No, that's actually a current point of rabid contention among the fanbase. We know some did, others may not have.

This so fucking hard.
I was originally surprised because I was so fucking sure, but yeah, no and it makes a lot of sense why people would be so divided since the game and the characters only explicitly state Yhorm and Little Laudren to have 100% linked a flame.

The Abyss watchers and Aldrich are still up in the air- and I AM personally in the boat that neither of them linked a fire and were APPOINTED Lords of Cinder much like the Lothric princes were.

-Aldrich was appointed as a Lord of Cinder because of the immense power he obtained through consuming so many men. He never linked a flame, but he kept growing in power and size so they game him the title, the cathedral and fed him snack-rifices to keep him the fuck away from everyone else.

-The Abyss watchers were appointed as Lord of Cinder due to their martial/military might and the wolf blood that connected them to one large powerful soul. That's about it for them.

So, yeah, though, like everyone else: Who the fuck knows really, eh?

>Little Laudren

Shit, sorry, *Ludleth. Little Lord Ludleth.

The Firekeeper calls him the "Little Lord", it's simultaneously adorable, but incredibly fucking disrespectful.

"Look not in bewilderment as I say… I linked the fire long ago, becoming a Lord of Cinder. If substantiation be thy want, set thine eyes upon my charred corse. This sad cadav’r. No need to be coy, have a closer look."

""I took the mantle of Lord of Cinder of mine own volition. I speak these words with pride. Choose thy fate alone. Seize it with thine own hands. All the more, should thy fate entail such foul betrayal."

I can't find the direct quote, but if you kill Ludleth he respawns asleep and in his sleep he talks about how horribly painful it was to link originally link his flame.

I can only imagine Ludleth of Courland must have literally been the last pick- The VERY last resort to link the flame and he manned up and accepted the responsibility dispite his personal flaws.

He's easily the bravest Lord of Cinder in my eyes.

Eh, I don't know. Aldrich was one of the resurrected LoC. But whatevs.

But the Watchers in my opinion did Link The Fire
Ludleth wasn't 'picked' he /chose/ to Link The Fire, I don't think anyone asked him to(also he probably broke time doing it). Plus it fits with his whole 'choose your fate, take it with your own hands, no matter what.

How did Aldrich eat Nito if the CU already killed him?

Is eating a corpse good enough for Aldrich? Is Aldrich the CU of Dark Souls 1??

Where does it say he ate Nito?

>Ludleth wasn't 'picked' he /chose/ to Link The Fire, I don't think anyone asked him to(also he probably broke time doing it).

I'm just saying Ludleth was probably last choice or the least likely guy to have succeeded.

He gives the impression that literally no one else could do it and that he was the last choice available to do so and he did it despite everything.

On his lower body, which resembles Nito's garb

Also devourer of godS

Uhh what? Aldrich mostly ate humans and a couple(this one's a maybe) of gods.

His skirt is just Gwyndolin's but frayed and colored black. The bones are more like ribcages than somekind of skelly golem Nito has, and his sword spell, could just have been obtained from some random Gravelord Covenant follower, that sword was given to anyone who joined it after all.

Nito's garb is literally just condensed darkness, it disappears when you kill him remember?

>FS canon also says that Ornstein survived the first Chosen Undead's trip to Anor Londo, as only Smough was left to guard the citadel. Considering that different timelines and/or dimensions is canon as well, the one in DaS3 might just be a peculiar timeline in which Gwyndolin just never got killed.

Couldn't Ornstein and Smough be Undead? The Chosen Undead killed them, then they respawned at the bonfire, shrugged, and went their seperate ways, with Smough sticking around Anor Londo and Ornstein fucking off to Drangleic.

So headcanon? Gotcha.

Aldrich went from his coffin to anor londo after his reserection, I'm pretty sure he linked the fire. It's also possible that he linked the fire before consuming gwyndolin. The opening cinimatic describes him as saint of the deep. he resurects at the cathedral of the deep, Sulyvahn doesn't want you reaching him (which means he's againt linking, so why feed aldrich big souls before burning him).
I don't think Aldritch is halfway through eating Gwyndolin because he's already got a reputation of god eater.

>It's also possible that he linked the fire before consuming gwyndolin.

There's no question that he consumed Gwyndolin during the events of Dark souls 3- Nobody I think has a problem with that.

>I'm pretty sure he linked the fire.

The problem with this is it raises more questions than if he hadn't:

-Why would he link the fire of his own free will? It would severely weaken him and Aldrich is a being of pure avarice, gluttony, greed, etc- He's an evil, selfish, thing that would NEVER link the fire if it meant death/weakening himself.

-If you think Aldrich was TRICKED or FORCED you're just being silly: No one could have forced or tricked him to do ANYTHING. No one would be strong enough to force him and If he had been tricked I would imagine they would have mentioned that. The only lord of cinder to be "tricked" would be something to talk about.

The Big deal with Aldrich beyond his personal characteristics is also what Hawkwood says, about how Aldrich got his lord of cinder title through "power" and not merit/virtue.

Hearing him say that it sounds like Aldrich is more of a candidate and less of a flame linker.

You also need to keep in mind that MANY other people rose from their grave when the bell toled: You, the PC for instance also crawled out of the dirt.

user, powerful gods get tricked or forced into doing things all the time.
See: the plotline of just about every mythology story ever

I'm fairly sure that nonof the Lords of Cinder in DS3 actually managed to Link the Fire, or at least none of them linked it PROPERLY. That's the reason the Unkindled appear. They're the Flame's last-ditch solution - revive a bunch of Undead who tried to link the fire in the past in the hopes that one of them will be able to actually succeed.

>Aldrich was appointed Lord of Cinder and set on that path, but we have no evidence he ever actually TRIED. He could have just said "nah, me and Sully are going to go eat Gods now, kthxbye."

>Yhorm tried, but instead burned out/created the Profane Flame. Still not sure exactly what all that is but I theorize he either tried to do more like the Witches of Chaos did when they tried to turn their souls into a new Flame, or alternatively as a Giant his soul was sufficiently "different" enough to not properly channel the power of the Flame.

>The Abyss watchers weren't strong enough as individuals to link the flame, so they tried to do it as a collective; but not only was that not something that would work, but they were all tainted by the Abyss thanks to Artorias' blood, which caused them to also burn out and corrupt their whole region.

>Lothric didn't even fucking try.

>Ludleth MIGHT have been the only one to actually succeed in his time, or he could be lying. We'll probably find out more in the DLC.

>See: the plotline of just about every mythology story ever

Yes, that's the fucking point though.

If Aldrich was tricked into doing it they would have told that story for all the fucking sages and oracles and heralds to spout and tell about for the ages.

That would have been a big fucking deal, but Hawkwood clearly states they MADE him a lord of cinder due to his POWER and not his VIRTUE.

He wouldn't link the fire he lacks the VIRTUE.
He wouldn't link the fire he desires POWER.

He wasn't TRICKED because there's no MYTHOS.

I just think there's more to support that he didn't link the fire and he's lord of cinder in name only than if he actually earned the title through doing it.

>No one would be strong enough to force him

You don't know how strong he was at this point (pre-gwyndolin).

Hawkwood mentions power becasue it's power that put people on top, and he's daunted by the prospect of faceing lords of cinder.

A crutial point to why the lords must be gathered is that the game requires you to gather these souls. It's more plausable that the linking requires the souls of past linkers than people with a title. It's not amatter of great souls either or the namelss king would do.

What? As if this series isn't built on a bedrock of headcanon. Hell, Miyazaki's "headcanon" about the books he couldn't completely read as a child is the template for the way the lore is written. "Looking like" something else is about as much evidence as you need.

Ludleth is obviously very powerful, I keep hearing about how untended graves is the true one and ludleth created the starting point of this game to hide the untended graves

I don't know if anyone ever considered this, But I think the Anor Londo we visit on DS3 is fake. The Silver Knights seem to be Gwyndolins idea in both DS 1 and 3, since Gwyns Knights walked into the flames and became the Black Knights.

Further, the Smough set description mentions that he was the last knight to protect Anor Londo, that could possibly mean that everyone except Smough was one of Gwyndolins illusions/fakes

my theory is, Gwyndolin survived DS1, went on to create a new anor londo in the Boreal Valley, and was eventually betrayed by Sulyvahn.

The silver knights are ceremonial guards that are actually knights from Lothric. Hence why they work with the Deacons and didn't protect Gwyndolin from Aldritch.

I agree that the silver knights are probably a new order initiated by Gwyndolin after DS1.

But Anor Londo could be either, really. Maybe Gwyndolin rebuilt part of it elsewhere, maybe he kept his father's tomb in good shape while everything around it changed.

This really seems like a /v/ thread.

I'm amazed you guys are getting away with these threads on Veeky Forums.

Reminder that the Dragonslayer Armor belongs to an unnamed third Dragonslayer who served both Ornstein and Nameless King. Source: Sacred Oath.

could also be that Anor Londo and Lordran became the Boreal valley due to Gwyndolin being the Moon God, and there being eternal night since he rules.

so Jeremiah just got unlocked on the kickstarter

Yeah Nito is canonically dead. But I don't think it's random that he has this sword/spell, or that he just ate some random dude, it seems like too big a clue to mean nothing.

>Sacred Oath.
Miracle of those chosen by the Sunlight covenant.

Temporarily boosts attack and damage absorbtion for self and those in vicinity.

This is the tale of the Sun's firstborn, his faithful first knight, and the brave dragonslayer who served them both.

more like Gwyn's son, Solaire and Ornstein

>could just have been obtained from some random Gravelord Covenant follower

Or maybe Aldrich was a gravelord covenant member himself. Or related to Nito somehow. The way he "absorbs" people is not something very common in the DSverse, I can only think of 2 other entities who did that : the rotten (heavily implied to be Nito's spiritual successor) and Pinwheel.

Yea, DS2 seems to imply that Nito's power got kind of "spread out" after his death - the Rotten had his soul, but the Milfanito also had a portion of his power as well.

I would speculate that "the Deep" that Aldrich explored was as much the Caverns of the Abyss as it was the Gutter, if we're comparing to DS2 locations. It's pretty easy to imagine he found those powers down there and consumed them pretty early on.

>more like Gwyn's son, Solaire and Ornstein
I dunno about that.

The way that Solaire's "legacy" has been presented in DS2 and 3, especially now that it's totally confirmed that he's not Gwyn's son, seems to suggest that he really was just some guy. Which I think is better, to be honest - it makes him one of the few optimistic notes in the otherwise fairly bleak Dark Souls canon.

I mean, think about it. Solaire was JUST A GUY. A skilled knight, sure, but other than that he didn't have any special powers. All he wanted was to find some light and hope in a world that didn't have enough of either, and he spends the whole game encouraging other Undead to work together.

Sure, he dies a pretty ignoble death in the end unless you save him, and even if you do the name "Solaire" is very quickly forgotten by history - even by DS2 nobody knows who he was. But you know what isn't forgotten? The Covenant he started. A brotherhood of undead working together to help each other through their hardest trials. A beacon of light in an otherwise dark world. Dark Souls 3 could be THOUSANDS of years after 1, its shrines are nothing but crumbled statues, and yet the Warriors of Sunlight are still there, still engaging in Jolly Cooperation, and still wearing the funny-looking Sun-With-A-Face that Solaire fucking drew on his shield because he was a weird, silly man.

I love it.

He's an entirely optional boss, so...

So does someone know what those weird undead-tree-butterflies are? Is this the same phenomenon as with the giants in dark souls 2 ? Do they wake up because the fire is fading ? Are they agents of the dark ? or are they the new "dragons" being awakened by a new "grey age" ?

Aldrich wasn't tricked, it's stated multiple times he is trying to grow in power to prepare for the Age of the Deep, he knew what he was doing

that and gods probably taste prettttty good

I like to think that it's the last one.

Dark Souls is so big on the idea of cycles, and DS3 really tries to drive home the idea that the cycle of Linking the Fire is artificial and slowly falling apart. The idea of people being reborn as "new dragons" (especially since they show up while you're fighting a boss called Dragonslayer Armor) fits well with that - the "Age of Grey" is starting to manifest as the Age of Fire is finally starting to fade away for good.

The "gods" of Dark Souls aren't true gods. Yes, they are stupidly powerful in comparison to your average human, but they're neither all-powerful nor invincible.

They're "gods" in the mythological sense, like the Greek or Norse gods.

Being omniscient/omnipotent isn't a requirement for being a "true god". That's just a Judeochristian thing.

Wait, is Anri of Astora an unkindled, or a bonafide Undead?

Because you could make a good argument that Anri is the real "hero" of the story, considering an Unkindled's job is merely to keep the fire going long enough for the Undead to show up and finish the job (which Anri was doing, since (s)he enlists the help of the Unkindled to kill Aldrich in their world.)

>They're "gods" in the mythological sense, like the Greek or Norse gods.

Not even that, dude.

The Gods of Dark Souls are immortal. That's pretty much their sole defining attribute compared to Humans.

All of their power and strength came not from inherently being a God, but from the hundreds or thousands of years of training and soul accumulation they were able to do on account of being immortal, not to mention that when a God has a child a portion of their soul (and thus power) is sheared off into the child, meaning the offspring of powerful gods already have a head's start.

Uh... and the fact that they had the Lord's Souls?

Like yea, they're immortal, but they started out with the First Flame(s). That alone already made them far stronger than any Human (who each have a small fragment of the Dark Soul.)

Anri is hollow

Check her character model.

>Uh... and the fact that they had the Lord's Souls?

Not every god had a Lord's Soul, and not all Lord's Souls were given to gods; Nito wasn't a god, and neither was the Witch of Izalith.

Gwyn was the only god who had a Lord's Soul, and although he gave portions of his soul freely to his family, there were still plenty of Gods who had none, like the Silver Knights or the gods and goddesses mentioned outside of the royal family.

Hollow is just a fancy way of saying "very advanced undead." She's still kept her sanity and is in fact pushing forward in Linking the Fire regardless of her condition, much like the Chosen Undead in DaS 1.

Besides, Undead/Hollow and Unkindled are very different things.

>it's totally confirmed that he's not Gwyn's son
since when?

since there is a better candidate in the last game.

Gwyn had multiple sons IIRC, you referring specifically to the one that was disowned?

What even is the difference between an unkindled and an undead?

I'm surprised there's no "Aldrich is the chosen undead" meme given that Aldrich is just the word Eldritch spelled differently, and half the shit about him/it could be applied to the DaS1 chosen undead becoming some weird entity after all the power and bullshit amassed over eons of shitting about.

An Unkindled is a corpse given life through the invigorating power of embers, their purpose is to keep the First Flame going long enough for an Undead to show up and Link it proper.

An Undead is a human bearing the Accursed Darksign, which is essentially a metaphysical unstoppered drain that leaks souls until nothing's left but the Dark Soul. Every once in a while an Undead will accumulate enough souls to Link the Fire.

As I understand it, unkindled are undead, but they have been raised from death, by the tolling bell

Undead are just people who developed the Darksign and gradually expended their natural soul energy

>I'm surprised there's no "Aldrich is the chosen undead" meme given that Aldrich is just the word Eldritch spelled differently, and half the shit about him/it could be applied to the DaS1 chosen undead becoming some weird entity after all the power and bullshit amassed over eons of shitting about.

Aldrich *was* a Chosen Undead, he was able to Link the Fire just like Yhorm, Ludleth and the Abyss Watchers had.

Which presents the hilarious mental image of a big dump truck pouring the big goopy goober out onto the First Flame.

What the fuck is up with those actual winged knight angels on top of the Archives

the 'normal' undead in Dark Soul are raised by Undead Curse and run the risk of going Hollow if they lose their drive

Unkindled are raised by the bell of awakening, does not naturally goes Hollow and theoretically can't link the fire
or at lest this is my interpretation

But the unkindled one also has a darksign in ds3

Yes.

The theory was that Solaire was the disowned war god because of his connection to Sunlight/lightning. But with that confirmed as not true, there's no longer any reason to believe him to be related to Gwyn at all.

My theory is that Solaire "rediscovered" some of the Nameless King's power (the destroyed statue at the Sunlight Shrine being a former statue of the disowned god).

They were imprisoned in the giant bird cage you find directly underneath that tower.

They're Lothric knights who drank the Kaathe kool-aid.

What about it being confirmed that Solaire linked the fire in his own world/timeline? Does that change the lore in anyway?

Video-games.

>But with that confirmed as not true
when/where/what is what I'm asking
I haven't been keeping up with new lore
Solaire being 1000% not the son is huge to me

Because some people think traditional games means anything fantasy, even if it isn't a traditional game.

In ds3 there is a boss that is VERY heavily implied to be the Suns first born

There's an optional boss in DS3 called "the Nameless King" who is all but explicitly stated to be Gwyn's firstborn, who rebelled against his father and sided with the remaining Dragons.

It's actually a pretty cool bit of new lore, since it ties in with Ornstein and the Faraam knights and a few other things in DS1 and 2.

I never made the connection that the Faraam Knights, who worship a God of War, worshiped Gwyn's firstborn.

So I guess that means Gwyn's firstborn was named Faraam?

I'm pretty sure that Yhorm is a son of Vendrick and Nashandra.

Gwynfaraam

What's the deal with Horace the hushed? Whyd he have to go and try to kill me after I trek through bones and bolts to look for his ass? Did he fully hollow when he fell into the pit?

I don't understand the debate of if a Lord of Cinder is a Lord of Cinder.

It's certainly possible. It might have been his real name, or just the name he adopted in exile when he was in Foressa.

His trademark symbol was always the Lion - he personally trained Ornstein, who adopted the same symbol and fighting style; the Faraam knights were known as Lion Knights.

The debate isn't about that, it's about whether to be a Lord of Cinder you have to link the fire or not.

My limited knowledge leads me to guess that they are the angels the Winged Knight set describes.

>My limited knowledge leads me to guess that they are the angels the Winged Knight set describes.

The Angels are the Primordial Serpents, most likely Kaathe.

Yeah, he died and went fully hollow,
He and Anri both have beef jerky hollow faces under their helmets already.

Anri seems to display all the characteristics of a Chosen Undead, though, which means she simply can't go Hollow.

Except she does go full hollow after accomplishing her mission.

They go hollow in the end if you tell them about Horace dying though, player character not dying is just a game feature.

Shit, really? I thought she was killed by Horace. All I did was the Lord of Hollows ending with her questline.

And why did she want to kill Aldrich so bad, because Irithyll and the Church were the ones that destroyed Astora?

Chosen Undead do hollow.

They do it when they give up on their purpose and don't know what to do, so give up.

It just so happens that you as the PC do this when you get bored of the game and stop playing that character.

What is the best armor in the game and why is it Outrider Set?

What? How did she die to horace if you completed the usurpation ending?

She didn't die to Horace, she died to a Londor Assassin in Yorshka's Chapel - you can prevent it and stop the questline by killing him, he's disguised as one of the statues in a corner.

Horace just goes hollow because he's a weird fucked up gimp man.

meant to link to whoops.

because they both were prisonners of the church when they were church, according to some item description.

They were probably destined to become Aldrich food, and seek vengeance.

That's probably why Anri hollows in the "good" ending to her questline, she accomplished her goal, that's a red flag in this universe