Forsaken edition

PCs are already special snowflakes. That's why they're PCs.

Just make forsaken paladins a little gang of light worshipping forsaken that view the pain of using the light as repentance for their sins

>but canonically, aren't there supposed to be heaps of PCs of each class?

Maybe in the earlier days of WoW, but from what I've heard in this thread, the game is going the way of TOR and slowly turning into a single-player campaign. I haven't actually played since 2009, so...

Why not?

Undeath is described in WoW as a pretty horrible experience - many turn to monsters or are retarded, maybe based on how they died or the condition of their corpse. Those fortunate enough to escape this still have to deal with deadened emotions and are more likely to be sociopaths.

Plus they get no joy from eating, from sex, all the usual stuff that drives living humans. So not just more pain but also less opportunity to experience joy. What's left is intellectual pursuits - poetry, chess, shitposting etc.

Nope. Speaking as an actual Forsaken fan, the last thing I want to see is them made pretty again. If a cure for undeath is ever found, I want the end result to be at least as visually horrifying as the current lot. Maybe moreso.

What will it take to get a Forsaken leader who's actually an eerie rotted corpse fellow?

Because undeath is a curse, a curse better understood by the forsaken than anyone else.

The forsaken hate the lich king more than anything for making them undead. Naturally this should make them hate the idea of raising more undead, because that's being like the lich king, and would certainly result in those they've raised hating them as much as they hate him

I don't think you can just walk up to a decaying corpse, animate it and call it forsaken, you need to start with preparation while they're still alive.
Although some souls seem to linger around even without necromantic experiments so maybe it varies on case by case basis...

Leonid Bartholomew as the new forsaken leader

>Nathanos?

Well, there's a bit of an odd shift in how undeath is presented in Cataclysm. It's a bit closer to how the Val'kyr and Cult of the Damned advertised it.

How about "fuck that idea"?

Yes you can. Forsaken are literally just undead that broke away from the Lich King's control. You might be getting confused with Death Knights who do require specific rituals to animate them.

I don't think he's got political ambitions.

The prettyboy vampyr looking dude?

>considering that nobody came to help in defence of the lightwell.
I'm not sure if there were anyone who could come to help.

I mean Sylvanas couldn't even get a runner to Silvermoon in time.

Maybe some Northeron dwarves could've been close enough to know to aid.

Perfect, "political ambitions" in WoW tend to make people retarded

Isn't that a purer, more ideal vision for society - no longer held back by the chains of requirements for life and able only to advance society and the world?

...

Goddammit. I forgot they changed his model. Fuck.

Well yes, and how did Lich King get his undead? By specifically engineered plague designed to make undead.

His concept was neat.
Didn't like most of WoW, but coming across this rough standard looking Forsaken with his spooky dogs was cool.
Only human ranger, gone undead and loyal to the ranger general.
I like it.
I guess a bit snowflakey, but meh. I'll allow it.

How do you see the seven kingdoms before the dark portal appeared?
What do you make of eastern kingdoms politics of that time?

What would happen if the orcs never came?

Night Elves have a decent claim to be Paladins. The Priestesses of the Moon are basically paladins with bows.

That depends on whether the dark portal never opened because the orcs didn't drink th koolaid, or whether it didn't open because Medivh got stopped

Much like communism, undeath does not seem to have worked out this way in the real world. Although maybe you can attribute this to the Forsaken being in a state of constant war - certainly makes it difficult to focus on higher intellectual pursuits when you're struggling to survive.

>Didn't like most of WoW, but coming across this rough standard looking Forsaken with his spooky dogs was cool.
Well, he was pretty cool looking.

He's not shady enough. I don't have a problem toning down the evil of the Forsaken, but if you made them a bunch of Light-loving Lawful Good types it'd never work. Replace Sylvanas if you like, but it has to be with someone who fits the shady and creepy sort of people the Forsaken are.

Sure the majority were, but that's just because it's an easy way to get lots of undead fast. Don't forget the Scourge had necromancers who animated the dead the old fashioned way, and I'm sure some of those made their way into the ranks of the Forsaken.

I guess if the orcs didn't drink the koolaid, Sargedivh gets NotGul'Dan of some other race in the nether to build a portal and come over. Delayed though. Or just use some planetary force.

If Sargedivh gets stopped then the legion would have their orcs, but not a way in really to weaken them.
They'd continue working through warlocks and getting the occasional nathrezim to cross over I guess.
An invasion if one would come, would be delayed.

It's been outright stated that you stay a paladin if you believe hard enough after death.
It's also been outright stated that you stop being a paladin and the light rejects you if you stop believing in your righteousness.

This is why Sir Zeliek can be a paladin while under direct control of the scourge, and how the Blood Knights and Scarlet Crusade could be paladins while being complete dicks.

>Don't forget the Scourge had necromancers who animated the dead the old fashioned way
All of the nerubians needed to be raised that way right?

And Sylvanas was raised the old fashioned way I guess.

>tfw no alternate universe where the Sethekk arakkoa drink Mannoroth's blood and invade Azeroth instead of the orcs

>The only way this happens is if they turn the PC into a special snowflake too.

>Much like communism,
Please don't.

Anyway, I would say the Forsaken have advanced greatly in the few years they've been around - the building of tanks and advanced bioweapons hasn't been done by any other faction of humans, especially without outside help and especially with starting where they did. Their undeath has made them more intelligent and ruthless, it seems, and this has resulted in them making considerable advances. Of course, they have used these advancements for conquest and terror and violence, but my question is, does it have to be that way? Or is it just because of Sylvanas?

It's never stated, but presumably, yes. The thing to remember about the Lich King is that even before the plague, he was fighting against the Nerubians - and winning. So yeah, he already had many undead in his army before the plague. How much of those are humans is unknown; probably not a lot though.

It doesn't have to be this way, and it isn't because of Sylvanas

It's because of Kosak

a reminder that tanks and stuff like that are just wacky skaven tier tech for the most part

Their focus was always on building up their strength so they could achieve their major goal - defeating the Lich King. Presumably this should stop now they've achieved their goal, but they're still useful for the Forsaken to focus on as long as they're in a state of war. Which they will continue to be until Warcraft games stop being made.

So unfortunately no, none of what you're after will ever be explored, especially by the current crop of hack writers. Best off just imagining it yourself or writing fanfiction.

>It's never stated, but presumably, yes.
I'm pretty sure it was stated that the nerubians were immune to the plague, but his necromancers could still raise their already dead nerubians.

Here

>Best off just imagining it yourself or writing fanfiction.

This. I've just been pretending everything after WOTLK didn't happen and everyone in Azeroth can finally start spending resources on rebuilding their fucked-up world instead of just running off to the deal with the next threat and magicking armies and fortresses out of nowhere. I've always been more interested in the potential interactions of all the people and cultures crammed onto that planet than what's left of the "story" anyway.

Neat. Thanks!

I don't understand why the Frostwolves didn't join the Iron Horde. They were "honorable" in the orc sense of the word and didn't side with demons.

Story wise it would make more sense for the Horde to team up with the Shadowmoon since Nerzhul didn't even want to join the Iron Horde in Legion outside of being forced to and because they were the wise shaman clan.

meant in WoD not Legion

That concept works quite well if you take the Cataclysm itself, but not the events that immediately followed it

B-b-b-but the Shadowmoon are e-evil! C-cause Ner'zhul and G-g-gul'dan!

Also Green Jesus hails from the Frostwolves so

Because they wanted a clan to be the token good clan, and since Frostwolf were that in the original timeline, they just reused them in the same role.

The theory fits especially if you see WoD as a retelling of WC1/WC2. Some elements were changed (not drinking the demon blood) but many stay the same, such as Frostwolf staying out.

They probably would have gone to war with one another eventually. I could definitely see Gilneas starting some shit down the line. Or maybe something between Stormwind and Lordaeron.

I think it'd be much more interesting to have Durotan as an anti-villain, maybe even taking the role from grom in the should have been Iron Citadel.

Alterac and Gilneas go to war with Stromgard, Dalaran gets a zombie rat problem, and prince Arthas marries Sylvannas in a bold political move.

>and prince Arthas marries Sylvannas in a bold political move.
She's not a princess though, so I don't really see it.

I don't think Gilneas would start much.
I guess maybe it could be unclear who owns a chain of islands, unclear claims between Gilneas and Stromgarde or Kul'Tiras.
Alterac using it to get them on their side vs stromgarde could work.

Frostwolves had Drek'thar.

>She's not a princess though, so I don't really see it.
that means a closer alliance with the elves

I think he means Sylvanas is not Elven Royalty, just a High Ranking Ranger, so her marriage to a prince wouldn't have any diplomatic effect on the two kingdoms.

>I think he means Sylvanas is not Elven Royalty, just a High Ranking Ranger, so her marriage to a prince wouldn't have any diplomatic effect on the two kingdoms.
she is elf nobility, she got a family house and everything

also isnt the hunter artifact some ancient windrunner family bow or something?

>Discuss the viability of the Warcraft universe as a tabletop RPG setting.

What's to discuss? It already exists as a tabletop RPG setting.

yeah
so arthasxsylvanas totally happened.

>she is elf nobility, she got a family house and everything
There is no House Windrunner, you pleb. She is not nobility.
Sylvanas circlejerkers are literally the worst. I can't fucking wait for her to get Garroshed before Legion's end.

they are princesses in the same way as princesses taytay. once you become master race enough you become nobility

>There is no House Windrunner, you pleb. She is not nobility.
yet they had huge tracts of land.

>associating slutvanass with Taylor
DELETE THIS!

Shitvanas and her forsaken lackeys deserves to be under Bolvar "The Lich King" Fordragon's heel in order to insure that will behave like proper undead

I said it last thread, I'll say it again. The Forsaken needs someone like Gauldoth Half-Dead. A leader who has ambitions, but isn't so stupid that he goes on the war path and make enemies of the whole world when he could just foster good diplomatic relations with his neighbours and let his kingdom prosper naturally.

Speaking of the Shadowmoon orcs, things don't really add up in WoD regarding them.

In the original timeline, the Horde gets started when Kil'jaeden appears to Ner'zhul in the guise of the spirit of Ner'zhul's dead wife and tells him that the draenei are planning to destroy the orcs. Ner'zhul, being a power shaman respected by all orc clans, unites the orcs and gets them to go to war with the draenei. At the same time KJ begins teach Ner'zhul and the other shamans warlock magic.
At soem point Ner'zhul realizes something is wrong, but KJ has has him replaced with his apprentice, Gul'dan (although Ner'zhul is still around after that, and ends up blowing Draenor up by opening too many portals at the end of WC2's expansion). Gul'dan goes full warlocks, orcs start turning green from exposure to fel energy, and then he gets them to drink demon blood.

In WoD opening cutscene Garrosh prevents the orcs from drinking demon blood, but presumably things would have gone pretty similarly up to this point (the orcs are still fighting the draenei, Gul'dan's around, they've got the demon blood and everything). But then in a questline we learn that Ner'zhul's wife is alive on AU Draenor, and that Ner'zhul and the Shadowmoon clan only joined the Iron Horde because Grom and Garrosh threathened to destroy the clan if they didn't. So if Ner'zhul never got tricked by the Legion and the Shadowmoon remained peaceful shamans until after Garrosh showed up, who started the Horde, and howcome his apprentice is still all green and trying to get people to drink the koolaid?

>Scarlet Crusade could be paladins while being complete dicks.
Or when they're those undead jokes raised by Balnazzar. Honestly, that's a damned shame what they did. They even killed off and raised the more moderate members who were willing to work with the Argents. I prefer the Scarlet Crusade as a living faction.

I wouldn't mind Forsaken Paladins, but there's no way in hell I want one as a leader or even as an influential religious figure. They should be looked down upon as masochistic self-flagellating freaks.
Oh, I know him. He's exactly the sort of guy who should be in charge.

I don't want some Light worshiper or anti-necromancy/anti-Blight types put in charge, though I'm fine if they moderate those practices, but whoever is in charge needs to be reasonable and actually give a damn about his or her citizens beyond how useful they are. They need to be someone who can be trusted and isn't a blatantly self-serving psychopath. Someone who could lead their people in a more peaceful direction and teach them not to hate and envy the living so much.

Preferably while looking like a horrifying undead monster, as a true representative of their people.

And why is Gul'dan clearly decades older if he's the apprentice?

princess taytay art as a windrunner when?

They had their own estate and Sylvanas held the rank of Ranger General, which made her the military commander of all the forces of Quel'thalas.

She wasn't royalty, but the Windrunner's were unquestionably high ranking nobility among the High Elves.

Fel Magic horribly aged him before his time I believe.

>There's that one guy in the Argent Dawn who is one, but he's a special snowflake.
He's not a paladin, he's a warrior who remains righteously-minded. He does not channel the Light, and endures the disquiet of being on holy ground almost constantly. His body rejects the Light, but his soul yearns for it.

The ONLY undead paladin sort is Sir Zeliek, but that's because his mind and soul remained pure while the Lich King controlled his undead body. And soon, Whitemane. Praise the DK World Police.

Undead Holy Priests do exist, but are the absolutely rarest sort because using that power, even intermittently, is more like a cauterizing flame to them than it is a comforting, healing glow. Also, one CDev described the effects of prolonged exposure to the Light as making them more acutely aware of their undead state- to feel their exposed joints grinding against one another, the taste of rot in their mouths, and the carrion-feeding insects and the like burrowed in their flesh. It's liable to drive them mad.
Contrarily, undead shadow priests feel more "alive" in that they tune out all those feelings and instead feel invigorated by the darkness they command.

Only the truly devout remain true to the Light after undeath.

Nerzhul looked and sounded pretty old in WoD already.

>Undead Holy Priests do exist, but are the absolutely rarest sort because using that power, even intermittently, is more like a cauterizing flame to them than it is a comforting, healing glow. Also, one CDev described the effects of prolonged exposure to the Light as making them more acutely aware of their undead state- to feel their exposed joints grinding against one another, the taste of rot in their mouths, and the carrion-feeding insects and the like burrowed in their flesh. It's liable to drive them mad.
>Contrarily, undead shadow priests feel more "alive" in that they tune out all those feelings and instead feel invigorated by the darkness they command.
Actually sounds kinda neat.
Didn't expect this from neo blizz.

>>Undead Holy Priests do exist, but are the absolutely rarest sort because using that power, even intermittently, is more like a cauterizing flame to them than it is a comforting, healing glow. Also, one CDev described the effects of prolonged exposure to the Light as making them more acutely aware of their undead state- to feel their exposed joints grinding against one another, the taste of rot in their mouths, and the carrion-feeding insects and the like burrowed in their flesh. It's liable to drive them mad.
>>Contrarily, undead shadow priests feel more "alive" in that they tune out all those feelings and instead feel invigorated by the darkness they command.
its old blizz

Here's the official text from the Ask CDev 1 and 2 quotes.

Q: Can you please explain how "light" works? The lore states that undead are physically incapable of using the light, much like the Broken, but then we have Forsaken players casting healing spells, and Sir Zeliek in Naxxramas using pseudo-paladin abilities.
>A: Without spoiling too much, we can tell you that wielding the Light is a matter of having willpower or faith in one's own ability to do it. That's why there are evil paladins (for example, the Scarlet Crusade and Arthas before he took up Frostmourne). For the undead (and Forsaken), this requires such a great deal of willpower that it is exceedingly rare, especially since it is self-destructive. When undead channel the Light, it feels (to them) as if their entire bodies are being consumed in righteous fire. Forsaken healed by the Light (whether the healer is Forsaken or not) are effectively cauterized by the effect: sure, the wound is healed, but the healing effect is cripplingly painful. Thus, Forsaken priests are beings of unwavering willpower; Forsaken (and death knight) tanks suffer nobly when they have priest and paladin healers in the group; and Sir Zeliek REALLY hates himself.

Q: When undead use or are healed by the Holy Light, does it cause them any actual damage or harm, or does it only cause them pain (in addition to the intended effects of the spell)?
>A: Channeling the Light in any way, or receiving healing from the Light, only causes pain. Forsaken priests do not disintegrate or explode from channeling the Light for an extended period of time… though they may wish they would.

(cont)

Q: Are there long-term effects on an undead who is in regular contact with the Holy Light in a positive way?
>A: It is difficult to say, as there are no known records of undead wielding the Holy Light before the Third War. There are reports, however, that some Forsaken have slowly experienced a sharpening of their dulled senses of touch, smell, etc., as well as an increase in the flashes of positive emotions that have otherwise become so rare since their fall into undeath. Unfortunately, this may be the cause of the Forsaken priesthood's increased attempts at self-destruction; regaining these senses would force the priests to smell their own rotting flesh, taste the decay in their mouths and throats, and even feel the maggots burrowing within their bodies.

>The ONLY undead paladin sort is Sir Zeliek
wowhead.com/npc=46092/scarlet-commander-marjhan#abilities
wowhead.com/npc=46096/crusader-lord-valdelmar#abilities
Nope.

that's 3 too many

>that defense of the scarlet crusade in the comments of the crusader lord

pretty great

agreed. holy undead is dumb. it should be a source of their grief that holy uses are barred from the light in undeath

Someone update me on the class halls.

As far as I knew, they were going to be garrison 2.0. You were going to be by yourself in your own little class instance with all your followers around to suck your epeen about how amazing you are at being .

Last thread I heard talk about class halls being more akin to a class town, in that you will see other players of the same class there. That's a step in the right direction, I guess. Kind of. Will it be cross faction?

you don't get phased
you get to be the champion of your order along with EVERY ONE ELSE

In-game acknowledgement of PC power levels was a mistake.

For all intents and purposes, Legion is treating the story like a single-player campaign. The game treats YOU as the Highlord, even though strictly speaking, every PC paladin is the Highlord in their own story.

I liked it better when PCs were disposable nobodies called on to do the dirty work no one else would.

they weren't that since vanilla

youtube.com/watch?v=HpG65ap-Uvc

>Metzen says that Arthas was the first Death Knight
>First Death Knights were created by Gul'dan well before Arthas became one
>Doesn't even know his own lore
Jesus fuck

Guess I didn't do enough endgame content, then. I always got the sense I was just some mercenary people hired to do random jobs, and sometimes a little more.

>>Doesn't even know his own lore
isn't Falstad dead?

Is Elune real ?

PCs are high-tier mercenaries, though. They're newbies like everyone else, but they quickly come to outclass rank-and-file soldiers by a mile. As far as the world is concerned, you are THE specialist to get things done.

In fairness, Second War death knights and Scourge death knights might as well have different names considering how little they have in common.

PCs used to be Ishmael-type figures that acted as vehicles to explore the world with. Now, the storytelling from Wrath onwards where we constantly acted as backup dancers for a handful of spotlight-hogging recurring characters might have been annoying, but even that is preferrable to making the story all about the PC because, in the words of Yahtzee, "I don't find myself terribly engaging as a character; I'm quite the bellend."