>>47066232

That's hardly sexual violence. I fuck my woman with more gusto.

You're just having a rough time m8
Ignore the shitposts and follow only the discussions that you enjoy.

No, man, he's pretty obsessed with that.

No one gave a fuck about a Rhaenrya's virginity, but there's an half page about that shit in the Big Book of Lore.

So, no, you don't need to see rapes after the big battle. It's more honest to see generally the people suffer than nothing and probably should be done, but there is no reason to think about that shit as basically About Half Of The Bad Things That Happen, because that's not true and quite frankly is a little edgy.

Well George, Tolkien was writing FANTASY. Not reality. If people wanted to read about social injustice, genocide, and tax policy - there are plenty of places to do that.

But yeah, great insight Mr. Martin.

Jesus christ, it's like he either a) never watched or read Lord of the Rings, or b) was too stupid to understand what was going on. Probably b.

>orc babies

you know how i know you're a fucking liar that hasnt read either GRRM or actual war history books?

you think they are supposed to be comparable

sweet attempt at looking cool on the internet with your enlightened opinion though fucking disgusting shit-eating faggot

>It's more honest to see generally the people suffer than nothing and probably should be done, but there is no reason to think about that shit as basically About Half Of The Bad Things That Happen

You're right, it was probably more, since you can only kill someone once.

>Stories shouldn't inspire. They should all be as realistic as possible because autism is the new normal and if a narrative isn't driven by statistics and facts it is not relevant
In the time it took you to read this post, 37 women were the victims of sexual violence in a war zone.

the advent of the nazimod's return caused the gates to be open to hordes of crossover shitposters that arn't even really good.
its almost like in berserk when the godhand created the eclipse and forced the world to suffer under fantasy creature rules, complete with genocide and the entire bit, the difference being is Veeky Forums is tempered to shit on things like this.

I totally agree, and I think both methods of storytelling offer different forms of escapism. I enjoy GRRM and Tolkien, both for their strengths. Trying to compare the situations in these books is like apples and oranges. Why not throw disc world in there too

You do realize that orcs did reproduce sexually, right?

middle-earth.xenite.org/2013/01/31/are-there-female-orcs-in-middle-earth/

You can't be that stupid to think that what happened after and before wars in the middle ages were just rapes.

But I have? Why are you so upset my little chum?
And they're directly comprable because fat man is writing about;
>Muh horrors of war.
But really misses the point.

>shit-eating faggot
Spoiler your GRRM fantasies please.

Tolkien
>Served in combat during WWi
>Saw many of his schoolmates die in the trenches along with an entire generation of European men
>Saw Europe again descend into horrific war

Martin
>Served in the Cola Wars
>Saw the loss of Crystal Pepsi
>???

>Mr. Martin, what was your favorite part of the Lord of the Rings and what do you admire most about his tales?

>Definitely the food descriptions. Things such as Farmer Maggot's mushrooms and Lembas really hit the top of the literary mountain for me. I feel Tolkien should have focused more on that. Maybe expanded into what fried lembas would taste like.

Does anyone have the sunset pasta?

No wonder he's a fat fuck

>>Mr. Martin, what was your favorite part of the Lord of the Rings and what do you admire most about his tales?
>>Definitely the food descriptions. Things such as Farmer Maggot's mushrooms and Lembas really hit the top of the literary mountain for me. I feel Tolkien should have focused more on that. Maybe expanded into what fried lembas would taste like.
did he actually say that?

Tolkien
>Scholar and Gentleman.
>Family man.
>Veteran.
>Fought at the Somme, one of the most brutal battles in recorded history.

GRRM
>Disgustingly corpulent.
>Cuckqueen wife.
>Never served, not even a reservist.
>Fought to reach his stunted erection while writing about death and rape.

It's easy to write about the horrors of war when you dream them up in a nacho induced stupor.

>>Cuckqueen wife.
ok, what?

As a Tolkien fan, no he didn't. Tolkien really only put lots of thought into the languages. Pretty much all of his other world-building doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
The Lord of the Rings is not realistic at all. But it's also not meant to be. it's meant to be high fantasy, chivalric romance. Arthurian stuff.

Sure, all valid points. Except they fucking aren't. Tolkien, with all his faults as a writer, was nonetheless very good at creating thought-out and consistent mythologies and had masterful control over the language. That's why his legacy is so big.

GRRM's legacy is a boring tv show only kept afloat by shock factor and normalfags whose most gruesome prior media exposure was the Lost. And yet it still manages to be watchable and vastly superior to its source material.

>But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army?

And I could list a billion side questions George Rape Rape Martin doesn't answer, like insurance rates. So? They're beside the fucking point of the story!

More charitably, if we interpret this about not being about particular side questions of insurance rates but about some more general point involving the supposed "endless series of dark lords and their evil minions who are all very ugly and wear black clothes" whine, I will point out for the umpteenth time that TOLKIEN DID NOT WRITE THE CARICATURE EVERYONE KEEPS PAINTING HIM AS. Here's one of those supposed evil minions:

> Then suddenly straight over the rim of their sheltering bank, a man fell, crashing through the slender trees, nearly on top of them. He came to rest in the fern a few feet away, face downward, green arrow-feathers sticking from his neck below a golden collar. His scarlet robes were tattered, his corslet of overlapping brazen plates was rent and hewn, his black plaits of hair braided with gold were drenched with blood. His brown hand still clutched the hilt of a broken sword.

> It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace

I don't know how much is poor memory and how much is confusing Tolkien copypasta writers with Tolkien himself, but it keeps happening and it's equally stupid every time that people accuse Tolkien of dimestore things he didn't do.

>Pretty much all of his other world-building doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
where?

Wasn't the setting mostly just a though experiment to see how the languages would grow?

I agree somewhat - it's usually not my thing but I don't mind it and there's definitely room for both kinds of story in fiction.

This is also why comparing GRRM to Tolkien is fucking retarded - they don't write the same kind of books. It'd be like comparing Dune to Thomas the Tank Engine. And now someone's going to.

This, saved me a post.

cont.
Or how about when the Riders of Rohan are looking for a particular path through the wilderness, and their negotiation has some dark implications:

At length Théoden turned to the Wild Man. ‘We will receive your offer,’ he said. ‘For though we leave a host of foes behind, what matter? If the Stone-city falls, then we shall have no returning. If it is saved, then the orc-host itself will be cut off. If you are faithful, Ghân-buri-Ghân, then we will give you rich reward, and you shall have the friendship of the Mark for ever.’

‘Dead men are not friends to living men, and give them no gifts,’ said the Wild Man. ‘But if you live after the Darkness, then leave Wild Men alone in the woods and do not hunt them like beasts any more. Ghân-buri-Ghân will not lead you into trap. He will go himself with father of Horse-men, and if he leads you wrong, you will kill him.’

> then leave Wild Men alone in the woods and do not hunt them like beasts any more.

> any more.

George Rape Rape Martin writes splatterporn and condemns Tolkien for writing idealized utopian war, but Tolkien (who, I remind you, served in the First World War - you know, the one that *didn't* involve Hitler) knows damn well that war is nasty and that there's no perfect side.

Tolkien just has more discretion than to spray blood all over the camera, and Rape Rape is an unsubtle moron who thinks this means there's no blood.

Choo choo motherfucker

>High fantasy book about good triumphing over evil written by a devout catholic
>WHERE'S THE RAPE WHAT DID ARAGORN THINK ABOUT TAXES WHY DIDN'T HE KILL BABY ORCS

Fuck, screwed up my arrows.

>At length Théoden turned to the Wild Man. ‘We will receive your offer,’ he said. ‘For though we leave a host of foes behind, what matter? If the Stone-city falls, then we shall have no returning. If it is saved, then the orc-host itself will be cut off. If you are faithful, Ghân-buri-Ghân, then we will give you rich reward, and you shall have the friendship of the Mark for ever.’
>‘Dead men are not friends to living men, and give them no gifts,’ said the Wild Man. ‘But if you live after the Darkness, then leave Wild Men alone in the woods and do not hunt them like beasts any more. Ghân-buri-Ghân will not lead you into trap. He will go himself with father of Horse-men, and if he leads you wrong, you will kill him.’

> then leave Wild Men alone in the woods and do not hunt them like beasts any more.

> any more.

and during the siege of minas tirith the theme of fear and its effect on the human mind was thoroughly explored as well which again is a dark subject of war and one which Tolkien would have personal experience with.

>but it keeps happening and it's equally stupid every time that people accuse Tolkien of dimestore things he didn't do.
This happens to pretty much everyone who becomes famous enough. William Shatner's actual voice on Star Trek is nothing like the parody people make of him; it's just a parody of a parody stand-up comedians initially made back in the day and then everyone copied the shit out of it til it mutated to fifteen-second dramatic pauses for each syllable. In the same vein, people have copied Tolkien so much now that people can't separate the shitty copies and parodies from the actual Lord of the Rings story.

Same thing happened to Conan back in the day. How many people rip off Conan and ONLY do the dumb, loincloth-wearing brute who only knows how to swing a sword and pick up chicks?

>the First World War - you know, the one that *didn't* involve Hitler

Hitler was a machine-gunner in the Austro-Hungarian army in WWI, user. Technically, he was pretty fucking involved in the war, although manning a machine gun kind of pales in comparison to orchestrating the greatest loss of human life in history.

>How many people rip off Conan and ONLY do the dumb, loincloth-wearing brute who only knows how to swing a sword and pick up chicks?
Which is really weird because even the movie with Arnold goes off about how educated he is "Finest Tutors in the land" and all that.

This. Tolkien was building a mythology. He didn't question Aragorn's tax policies because it's in no way relevant to the mythos.

Hell, I don't even really like Tolkien and I think this criticism is ridiculous.

But on a different note...
>The Tolkien model led generations of fantasy writers to produce these endless series of dark lords and their evil minions who are all very ugly and wear black clothes.

Does anybody wonder what the next generation of fantasy writers will be like? It seems like a lot of amateur, up-and-coming fantasy writers I've interacted with love GoT (some of them have even read the books) so I wonder if the "Martin Model" will usher in an era of morally ambiguous political dealings with sparse fantastical elements, inspired more by history than mythology.

'greatest loss of human life in history' is putting the german genocide of jews, romani, gays and so on a bit high on the list. The 1918 Influenza alone killed 50-100 million people.

Not that the Holocaust wasn't awful but lets not inflate numbers here.

>as someone who's never seen war let me tell you what its like and call everyone who fights to secure peace evil because think of the baby orcs
>Tolkien who fought in one and lived through two world wars doesnt know shit about war!

hes actually just posting by constantly comparing himself to Tolkien. its literal real life shit posts meant to get attention by making outrageous statements

>sparse fantastical elements,
>inspired more by history
Is this what GRRM fans actually believe?
>Fucking dragons and dire wolves.
>magic and shit everywhere
>muh wall
>literally everything in the setting
Holy fuck.

They'll probably only copy GoT at face value just like the previous writers did with Tolkien, so it's just gonna be backstabbing/nobles being cunts for literally no reason, blood and rape with no actual subtlety or political maneuvering while claiming to be 'realistic'.

it killed THOSE people though
the gays

And rape. Don't forget rape. GRRM is dissing Tolkien as not merely a poor writer but a dishonest one for not showing lots of rape, so I'm pretty sure the amateur fanboy imitations of GRRM are going to be barely this side of rape porn.

lotr was incredibly realistic in having actual reasons for events other than plot. youre so fucking stupid and brainless I want to strike you

grrrrm is full of cartoon mustache twirling villains and PLOT

considering most of the battles were between orcs and goblins on one side and humans dwarves and elves on the other I doubt there was any incentive to do so

My oh my, This was a surprisingly effective shit post! Ya'll are sinkin yer teeth into like it owes you money, and it'll take ya to money and candy land if you don't let go.

You do realise that dire wolves were actual animals?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dire_wolf

Thing is, GRRM is absolutely right. But Tolkien saw not one but two bitter and vicious wars in his lifetime, and both were pretty black and white, at least at the time. Both have their merits, and I won't be driven to dislike either approach.

while forgetting that within the narrative of LOTR there would have been very little opportunity for rape
The only characters that spent any significant time under control of orcs were Pippin, Merin and Frodo and in all situations they were WAY to valuable for the orcs to even try something stupid.
The narrative doesn't reach any point where the enemy armies are pillaging instead of fighting and there is absolutely no way the commanders of the various orcish armies would let them engage in such base actions while they should be fighting

>Fucking dragons and dire wolves
A sign of magic rising again but has little impact on the majority of the plot so far, and mascots
>magic and shit is everywhere
Not yet, and the magic has little impact on most of the plot so far
>muh wall
Hadrian's Wall
>literally everything in the setting
Westeros is basically inflated dark age british isles with continental Europe grafted in

He's right if you're talking from a historical perspective. However, not all fiction set in a pre modern society is necessarily historical. Realism does not universally make a story good or bad, that is the task of the quality of the writing and plot. While everything he says rings true for something intending to be realistic and historical, it has no bearing on something well within the realm of the fantastical. A book that does not want to concern itself with the geopolitical dealings of a fictional world, but simply wishes to chronicle the adventures of larger than life people should stick with the dark lord and his hordes of minions, as sexual assault, poverty and general human douchebaggery would all detract from the story and its intended goal.

There probably was for the Orcs considering they're cruel and bestial creatures, but it's not important to the plot so it wasn't included.

That's one of my biggest criticisms with GRRM - his take on how people work is kinda shocking at first, but once you get about a third into the story it becomes entirely predictable that the bad guys are going to do the absolute most dickish thing they can do at that time, simply because they fucking can, or that the situation is going to turn for the absolute worst, simply because it always does. He tries to subvert expectations so much that they actually become the new expectations.

>Tolkien only used the evil in black image! and shiny heros!
>second biggest villian is literally called the white and is dressed head to toe in white
>aragon is introduced as a creepy woodsman rapist serial killer
>everywhere gandalf goes people hate and dont trust him
>boromir was seduced by the ring
>frodo was seduced by the ring
>good literally failed to defeat evil. evil was the cause of saurons defeat

Wasn't the original idea of Lord of the Rings that it's supposed to be a subjective account of the objective reality of Middle Earth?
Does that make sense? It was supposed to be like someone was recounting the story but not as a "this is totally what happened".
That's why I loved the Last Ringbearer. It took that idea and ran with it.
I think this shit may be too meta for GRRM.

And boy is my dick sore!

>let me enjoy my good vs evil escapism.
Nobody is putting a gun to your head, though.

It's more like it's a retelling of tale from ages ago.

Like the thing with Balrogs and wings, maybe in some tales they have them, and in some it doesn't, so the story itself is a bit vague because maybe the storyteller isn't actually sure.

I thought the Last Ringbearer was a bit too overbearing with it, but I can understand the idea.

Alright...this is something I don't get, if Martin is pleased as punch that he doesn't have a "good vs evil" story...how come he has the White Walkers, who pretty much exist to be evil?

>Alright...this is something I don't get, if Martin is pleased as punch that he doesn't have a "good vs evil" story...how come he has the White Walkers, who pretty much exist to be evil?
they are the good guys

We're already in the Martin generation. Notice how fantasy these days is all hamfisted politices, everyone is a psychopath, fucking everyone wheres heavy cloaks with the thick fur trimming, and everything has that grayish blue washed out look with tons rape thrown in.

And in at least one case where there was an opportunity for rape, the orcs probably did take it: Celebrian (Elrond's wife) was captured by orcs for a while, and while Tolkien doesn't come right out and say exactly what happened to her, he does say that Celebrian's sons are really pissed about something and spend as much time as possible going to orclands killing orcs, "for they never forgot the torment their mother had suffered". Hmmm, I wonder what that might be.

Tolkien can drop a hint rather than infodump exposition on us, but GRRM can't fucking take a hint. GRRM needs the rape to go on for at least half a page and at least five times a book or else he starts complaining "WHERE'S THE RAPE? THIS BOOK NEEDS MORE RAPE! WITHOUT RAPE, HOW WILL PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT BAD THINGS HAPPEN? LIKE RAPE!"

>By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?
Uninformed peasant
He killed all the orcs and orcs are all but a myth a few centuries later, as told in the continuation of lord of the rings he was writing as he died

I was referring to the fact that the fantastical elements have little direct impact on the plot save for setting things up. Or writers will have one or two important fantasy elements and keep everything else "realistic".

This guy explains what I meant better.
Also, I may not be a huge LotR fans but I'm definitely not a Martin fan.

>Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper.
I seriously hope he doesn't think this was Tolkien's actual opinion on the matter. Lord of the Rings is meant to be thematically mythic. It's not his fault "generations of fantasy writers" misread that.

It's not an accurate portrayal of war because it didn't intend to be, and I would trust Tolkien, himself a veteran of one of the most brutal wars in human history, to give an accurate portrayal of war if he so desired than a man who got objector status to avoid the Vietnam draft.

>sexless forgotten realms

You must be reading a different Forgotten Realms than I am. Forgotten Realms has LOADS of sex.

GRRM is. He's standing right here.

didn't she also essentially give up on the world after her treatment at the hands of the orcs?
does sound like they did something incredibly traumatic to her to the point it doesn't really matter if it was rape or something even worse than that

I can't see spoilers, the Russians? Yes, more Russians died from their own country killing them than all the victims of the holocaust.

Was Hitler to blame for Russia?

The fatishah controller oppressing the tanksraad of noble engines with his army of people who don't need to stay on the tracks and both of their powers being held in check by the troublesome trucks, who ultimately depend on both for their existence and power and who plot to unseat tall poppies with troublesomeness?

It's a little tortuous but I can dig it

>I can't see spoilers, the Russians? Yes, more Russians died from their own country killing them than all the victims of the holocaust.
>Was Hitler to blame for Russia?
I wrote the gays, because oppressing homosexuals is the most evil thing hitler could do.
also it is a 4 letter word like the jews

We're totally already in that right now.

>lotr was incredibly realistic in having actual reasons for events other than plot
HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Sorry, I'm not even the user you're replying too, that was just really funny.

Tell that to Eagles, the River, Golum eating the ring, Smaug just happening to be the last dragon, Bard, ghost army, etc.

Almost every single thing in the book is just a lame random event needed because he wrote himself into a corner.

It wasn't about realism, or at least it forgot to use any of it, it was about fantasy and language.

I'm a way yes he let the Soviet Union take over a good 1/3 of Europe by not focusing on stopping communism which was more of a problem then Jewish bankers

>Tell that to Eagles
Sauron protected his air-space with his magical powers, so they could only sweep in as he was dead

You know why I have a problem with GRRM?

He has all these things in his books. Characters get killed off, rape happens, children get thrown off of buildings and good men die and bad men prosper.

But none of it really matters. There's just enough time for a bit of shock value, and then he rushes things along before despair can set in, or you can question why you should even feel bad about what's happening to this character in the first place.

buh buh buh becuuuz HIIIIIISTOWY

BAD STUFF HAPPENED EVERY DAY IN MEDIEVAL TIMES

WOWW!!!

>Tell that to Eagles, the River, Golum eating the ring, Smaug just happening to be the last dragon, Bard, ghost army, etc.
>eagles
Literally the second closest thing to divine aid. They are heralds of manwe
>Gollum eating the ring.
yes, the entire quest nearly failed because the ring was too strong. Gollum tried to make a grab for it and failed because he was standing on a ledge
>bard
What about him?
>ghost army
Who don't become a meme like they did in the movie

There's also just so much of it that you just get desensitized to it and expect the worst possible thing to happen in every situation for it.

>MUH REALISM
Fuck off Martin you fat fuck.

>low fantasy book with cute fuzzy animals saving the day with friendship against bullying, mean villains
>WHERE'S THE RAPE WHAT DID ABBOT MORTIMER THINK ABOUT TAXES WHY DIDN'T HE KILL BABY STOATS

I kind of imagine this would be GRRM reading watership down.
>"Well the murder is good and it's fairly realistic in a sense that animals do kill each oth-HOLD UP WHERE'S THE RAPE?! THESE ARE RABBITS DON'T PEOPLE KNOW RABBITS FUCK ALL THE TIME? WHAT DO RABBITS THINK ABOUT THE ECONOMIC POSITION OF ENGLAND AND THE IMPACT OF THATCHERISM?!

Yeah. When Boromir died it felt significant because things had been relatively light-hearted until then.

With ASoIaF being a death march it almost doesn't matter anymore. Everyone knows the characters are in for a bad time and will either die or be mutilated/raped, so they don't form attachments. Tonally, it's not shocking; it's expected.

kek, Redwall needed more "realism" too. I just bought Mouse Guard today, I hope my players enjoy navigating mouse tax policies or tracking down mouse rapists.

I miss Redwall. I used to read that shit like potato chips when I was a kid.

I actually teared up a little a couple years ago when I found out Jacques died.

>WHAT DO RABBITS THINK ABOUT THE ECONOMIC POSITION OF ENGLAND AND THE IMPACT OF THATCHERISM?!
> THE IMPACT OF THATCHERISM?!
That you need more of it, of course

This should've tipped you off.

But there really is a problem with just 'taking stuff from history,' whether or not rape and other horrible things were more common than we thought it was: how do you think history books phrase and look at this stuff? They give some numbers, perhaps dare to make some argument with the information, and then quietly move things along to the next bit of history.

History is many things, but unless you actually can look at the emotions, it's not a great story. So much of it, especially before a certain period where no one kept diaries, is emotionally detached. You don't get stuff like Puyi, the last Manchu Emperor, talking to his wife-to-be on the phone.

>"I hear you're a more enlightened woman, I hope you do not treat me like everybody else. Maybe you've started feeling the distress. I am very lonely, no friends. Treat me like a friend. Can you promise me? - Wanrong repeat, "Yes, I promise." she tries to restrain the voice shaking. "This is good," Puyi happies and then farewell Wanrong, "Go to rest and good afternoon."

Despite the engrish, there's real emotional impact there that you wouldn't get from something a few centuries older.

>It's not plot devices driving the worlds events, it's divine aid.

...

Redwall had a really good tone. It was light and fun but when shit got real and characters died it made a huge impact on the story.

I always thought it was really cool how much the Mouse Guard guy respected Redwall.

Always and forever.

>>It's not plot devices driving the worlds events, it's divine aid.
yes and?

Martin literally bases all his shit upon random coincidences

In LOTR, the gods tip the balance ever so slightly in the protagonist's favors when everything is at a knife's edge.

Puyi did not deserve the shit he got into.

look here

Redwall knew how to keep things fairly light-hearted, but also took the time to work through difficult feelings and emotions. The villains were usually pretty nice too - maybe a little simple, being more cruel bullies with power, but that just made them easier to dislike. I wish I could decipher what moles were supposed to sound like.

Why do people like this fat fuck? Why does he have beef with a writer that wanted to create his own world and try to convert his bro to Catholicism and end up having his friend join the CoE?