Warmahordes General

if tibbers was in the pic i would have

Nigga those are point costs. They all went down to DEF 11

>We also took a look at the DEF of the Cataphracts relative to the rest of the infantry in the Faction and lowered it to 11.

Just the loss of superlative Fury control in the faction hurts Molik Karn. Some of the heavies are dropping to 3 Fury. If that hits MK he loses a lot of his range as a missile.

ok now i'm even more saltier

>some people think the Agonizer got nerfed

strawpoll.me/10138678

Poll to see what factions people PLAY (not own).

I'm curious how they're going to handle Carny since they clearly want him to be the beast wrecker out of its chassis group after Scythean got reworked.

So far with the Spiny Growth change and losing a point of speed, I'm not sure how they'll do it.

Well, honestly, if they wanted to make him a "wrecker" they would just buff his arm attacks.

Just make him P+S 18 on his fists and he will beat up heavies like a boss.

I don't know if he is technically their "beater" though. The Scythean really only lost an attack. If he is still P+S 17 he can still wreck heavies if he wants.

The Carnivian might be the "tank" honestly. If he has Spiny Growth that only works on himself (and I am personally hoping Spiny Growth doesn't just do dmg to beast/jacks anymore) he could be interesting if he got some sort of Arm Buff or other defensive tech.

He could also stand to loose his spray just to keep his points down.

Listening to Skorne, Cryx, and Legion players cry their eyes out over some nerfs is like seeing that spoiled teenage girl screech at her dad over how her new car is the wrong color. You'll live, cupcake.

He'll still have the highest PS attack in the group, and the Scythean is (marginally) worse at cracking armor, not sure if that's *enough*.

But heavy defenses seem to be down across the board, so it may be.

Still just fundamentally annoyed at a defensive animus that's self only on a heavy.

Wasn't Skorne kinda shit before? I don't play the game so maybe I'm wrong but that's kind of what I always read/heard.

At least over here things haven't been too bad.

I've seen less combined bitching from all three than Trolls after Warders got nerfed.

Skorne has consistently underperformed and now their best options got nerfed.

Yeah a lot of their stuff sucked but those stupid elephants had like 20 PS 25 attacks and could charge you from 30" away. It's about time PP did something to address the clearly retarded pieces Skorne had like Molik Karn and Titans.

I think the idea is you use Spiny Growth to help him survive on the way in, and then you get him in there and don't bother to use it at that point.

Remember, the design philosophy is supposed to be "You can no longer do everything forever with your warbeasts."

I hope Zu is the new Hordes faction.

Well, yeah. Skorne had pretty bad problems with things not working well together. Basically, not a lot stacked in the army. The concept seemed to be something along the lines of "Menoth, but in Hordes and with more whipping", but where Menoth is really good at stacking buffs, Skorne buffs don't play nice with each other. The best example I can think of that we know has been fixed is the Ancestral Guardian/Immortal interaction. Both model types were statues animated by the souls of venerated ancestors, and the Immortals were a unit that were really slow unless an Ancestral Guardian was nearby. But the Immortals didn't give souls, and the Ancestral Guardian needed souls to do any work. MKIII seems to be working to reduce Skornergy, but we won't know until we really see, and stuff like nerfs to Cataphracts seems kinda crappy, because they weren't that great to begin with.

I can't wait to see the Ret reaction on Monday. I'm brand new to this game, so everything will be pretty meaningless without the internet to provide the cynical filter for my chosen faction.

Nothing in Skorne was that great to begin with, except for Molik and the bronzeback, both of which have been nerfed into oblivion. Molik can still see play with Makeda, but with sidestep gone and beat back ruined there's no point using him with any other caster. The bronzeback now has the defensive stats of jacks that cost half as much, and lost offensive power, and lost animus utility, and lost much of his leadership's usefulness.

What the fuck else do we have? Aradus sentinels and soldiers?

They said they're DEF 11.

>We also took a look at the DEF of the Cataphracts relative to the rest of the infantry in the Faction and lowered it to 11.

Ret players ( not you since you're new obviously ) have always been huge fucking whiners. Ever since the very beginning when they were first released, and Ret was crying about how they didn't have an equal number of things as factions substantially older. There's really no sating those people.

>typical HORDES player
"wah my beast that brings its own spells and can be healed and can soak damage for my warlock costs more and doesn't trivially gain the alpha to 1 round jacks anymore waaaahhh"

In a game where you could take virtually limitless beasts and the only major drawback was they'd "waste" a turn just making 1 auto boosted attack. Cry me a river!

Everyone used Titans because the other heavy options in Skorne were: a pretty decent hit-and-run pterodactyl, a pillowfisted stegosaurus, and the Molik Missile.

I'm fine with the Molik nerfs; they were coming, and he's still plenty decent at fuckin' shit up. The Bronzeback makes me a little salty, because between the DEF nerfs and the drop in Fury, he's not the big-bad alpha male Titan he was. The Bronzeback had some top-notch damage output, but it was all very linear, and you HAVE to bring a Bronzeback, Molik Karn, or at least a Gladiator to have any kind of armor-cracking.

Maybe Titans will be getting more boxes to compensate, or some other tricks, but I'm a little hesitant to fully buy into the new Skorne without more info.

Maybe MK will have something decent for Cyclopes now, with THR going down for lots of models.

>pillowfisted stegosaurus
my next band name

I would love to know what the fucking plan is for that rhinodon

Oh yippee, it has spiny growth, it's still a heavy with a pow 14 melee.

The agonizer is now a tax you have to pay to make your beasts no longer chump speed bumps. Def 12 meant mat 6 missed sometimes, now they're a guaranteed hit. And you might want more than one of them, since a stiff breeze will kill an agonizer and it has to be pretty close to the fight for it to work.

asked this last thread and only got 1 really good response, I know absolutely nothing about skorne so skorne players does the article leave you optimistic or pessimistic for your faction in mk3? like would you advise people to pick it up or advise them against it?

The only way skorne can be fixed after this insider is by more support bloat.

Ok, so Ret changes remain fairly minimal so far, which I'm fine with since I think we were fairly balanced to begin with,
Although some more armor krak would be nice, no?

But to talk about another faction i've always been interested in playing, dono about you, does anybody have any info on:
Farrow + Minions in general?
It's time for the pigs to rise up, I REALLY want an excuse to use my Lord Carver, I love that model.

I am honestly shaken in wanting to play Skorne. But I guess that's not in line with faction politics. The Skorne way is loving the pain.

The Bronzeback currently goes to SPD6 nonreach outside of certain casters. How very broken.

Very excited to see Wrong-Eye & Snapjaw gain starcrossed, arguably one of the strongest dice-manipulation abilities in the game.

With three initials and beatback and the ability to murder whatever it got too without needing it's initials to do so.

I think a lot of people are mildly salty because it looks (emphasis on "looks") like a lot of mainstay models from MKII aren't going to be as useful. So the guys you used aren't going to see the table very much anymore, and the guys nobody used (like Slingers) are apparently rad.

With the shift towards less multiwound infantry and more warnouns and single-wound infantry, I think units like Swordsmen will really come into their own. I think a New Skorne list'll probably have two to three heavies, three-ish lights, two units of single-wound infantry, and some support. Maybe one unit of single-wound, one unit of multi-wound, and some artillery. Grievous Wounds and Overtake on a unit of Swordsmen+UA is going to clear out a TON of shit.

Overall, I'd say that Skorne's playstyle seems to be changing. The old meta was basically "deliver Molik", and a departure from that to what looks like a few layers of weird beast/unit/support interaction should be refreshing.

I just want bloodrunners to be viable, I love those models but goddamn if they aren't pretty shit currently

Their new stuff looks pretty interesting.

Shadow Play was neat but hard to make do anything, Appritation and 3" Reposition sounds much more viable for skirmish troops.

Why use our more expensive swordsmen instead of our cheaper nihilators?

Because Swordsmen are RNG1 now, and if their keep their other stuff, they're be two attack, side stepping, auto wounding, denying tough attackers.

They'll dig deeper than Nihilators and they'll kill a whole lot more.

Shit, I don't know. We were going to make Mordikaar work someway, somehow, anyway if he kept his feat and he kept his feat. The calculus of what exactly is a necessary armor-cracking crew is up in the air and not looking easier (hint: it was going to take Titans or Cataphracts and they both got worse at it for various reasons). But the job got more important because whether they wanted to or not, anybody you are running into is bringing more jacks and beasts and skorne infantry is still for fighting infantry.

Cataphract spam got worse in general, but had a long way to fall. Lower hit-boxes means the new krea animus may still work out for them. And really, half the point of having more than one hitbox on your infantry was just having more than one hitbox. Five is as good as eight for a lot of key purposes.

Agonizer is nice. Expensive. Essential. And that's even before considering it's uses as a control element and assassination aid.

Going to miss Krea's no-dice-rolls-required MAT buff potential. 3 inches is nice. Praetorians and the like probably won't notice the difference in the animus, but Immortals will. (15ARM+2 is cornercase, 17ARM+2 is awesome). Cataphracts, Beasts, and the like definitely will what with all the DEF nerfs- they're getting hit, +2 Def or no +2 Def.

Karn is still Karn for the Makedas. The Makedas seem to have improved.

The ranged beasts don't seem to be support beasts anymore; they have Far Strike, it's for themselves and only themselves, and they can't be transfer targets under normal conditions. Maybe if you're hugging a bronzeback with a Canonneer but I don't see the distances working out for that. If the Canonneer isn't boosting blasts and not being transferred to it may lose its slot to the Catapult of all things, we'll see how things shake out.

I think the nerf to Mage Hunter Strike Force is more than minimal.

Also, Marketh had his balls chopped off.

There's like 3 or 4 spells in all of Mk 2 Skorne Marketh can cast now that aren't shitty nukes. Either spell cards are going to need a huge re-evaluation, or he's done as a support piece. Some of our casters don't have a single spell he can use.

I'm pretty inclined to believe that they changed what the hell he does given that, don't you?

He's likely supporting in a new way.

No, they've openly said he has spell slave. And unlike the skarlock he doesn't even get his own spell on his card to cast.

I think the Krea will work really nicely with the advent of all the High Explosive shenanigans. Especially with Keltarii and their native +2 def vs shooting. DEF 17 and immunity to blasts will really help get them up the field to deliver some pokenings.

Only Khador has High Explosive so far, and only on two pieces.

And I'm willing to bet he has more than just that.

But they already showed some spells will be worth casting anyways. Makeda1's new spell will most certainly be worth casting through him, -2THR on hit against enemy beasts promises to be useful if Fury is getting harder to deal with. Hell, you can put Fury on their beasts anyways with the Agonizer as well. Even a THR9 beast at that point is looking for a 6 or less, and if beasts are sitting at THR6-7, then it's going to be pretty fucking nasty.

user, you do realize Skorne is not Legion, right? They were having their shit kicked in for most of Mk2 until they finally got some halfway decent releases that propped up the faction enough to give them a chance against the rest of the factions. They were basically Minions-tier.

Two really good pieces we'll probably be seeing a lot of, on top of the general improvements to light artillery meaning more shooting/blasts in general.

Gunbugs with ancillary attack were the first thing in skorne to really make me go "Hey, maybe I have something I can do in this faction other than going for Molik" and then ancillary attack got taken out. I had so much fun with eHexeris and gunbugs and raiders by the end of Mk 2. Maybe the new slingers will help keep that going, maybe not.

And this Insider provided them with far more buffs than Legion or Cryx got.

One of Skorne's big problems in Mk2 was they only had one real way to do anything: brick up and deliver Karn/Bronzeback.

So yea, that shit got nerfed, because it was powerful and one dimensional as shit. In return, Skorne picked up some real scenario pieces, some more utility, and some more interesting tricks.

I mean, fuck, you can run two Cannoneers with a Bronzeback now, have them fully load themselves every turn, and then between the Bronzeback and PGBHs, they're only sporting one Fury each. So you've got a decent shooting package with a pocket heavy to close the game with, and that's before you get into whatever your caster does to boost them.

Croak raiders that is. Though cyclops raiders helped too.

AA got dropped because of eMorg, I'm betting.

You move up, blind their caster, slingers move up and flare their caster, and then you just lob shots into their caster needing trivial to hit and putting up 4 dice shot/3 dice AA shots.

It would have been the new eLylyth, honestly.

If your pocket heavy can survive to end game with the def nerf.

Yes, yes, because 10/19 is an unlivable stat line that nobody in the game has ever had and can never survive with.

I played with 10/19 heavies in Mk2 and did just fine. You'll be fucking fine.

Makeda1 got taken out back and shot. She was honestly pretty balanced as is, with her feat just being kinda a dud. Losing Defender's Ward and Savagery for Quicken and some new spell which doesn't seem to do much seems like a poor trade.

Makeda 2 is more of a sidegrade. She still really doesn't have a ton of fury to spend on Stay Death and Storm Rager means she's a wash really (loss of the Krea armor buff hurts), but not as killy as before, but she can also make solos killier.

Makeda3 is the only one that got a straight improvement and even then, it might not be enough. She still struggles real hard against control effects and she's not Butcher3 levels of killy.

Makeda1 has the tools to absolutely fuck over Warbeasts now.

Her Shield Guard spell I'm out on the fence about, yea. It's a question of how much it costs, if it's an upkeep, and so on. Cheap upkeep spell with two bugs to shield guard for you would let her play super far forward.

I'm excited to put Storm Rager on Hakaar, but that's about it desu.

I don't think so. They always seemed to do well enough when I saw them played, and they had some big names constantly mentioned on the internets. They certainly weren't miniors tier.

Except for the part where they're mat 6, you need a solo for the tough part, and you need a UA for the Sidestep (and that's only if it still has that rule). Unless they get some kind of additional rules, they're still staying on the Shelves because Nihilators do everything Swordsmen want to do, only with no support bloat and cheaper overall. To be competitive, Swordsmen would have had to be a cost 10 unit MAX with their current rules or have CMA.

Again, Side Stepping, Overtaking, Perfect Striking, Grevious Wounds Swordsmen can eat through an entire front and mid line of models, something Nihilators can't do at all.

>Decent Package
>Def 10, Arm 18, 26 Boxes of Mat 5, Rat 4
>DECENT

user please. You're being delusional. The gun is the only thing the cannoneer brings.

How many 10 cost 10/19s did you use in Mk2? Unless bronzeback gets a massive point reduction, it's as survivable as a 10 point crusader in mk3.

You do realize the Canoneer is 10/18 with like 25 boxes, right? It dies to a stiff breeze.

The Bronzeback is the pocket heavy.

And it's pretty god damn far back, given it's sniping itself every turn.

She has Fury 6 with no way to cast upkeeps now. It's bad man. She is in a bad place.

Everything I just talked about doesn't involve her casting anything but maybe the shield guard spell. And if it's an upkeep and Marketh kept Soul Tap, she can upkeep it for free.

Yes. Because Nihilators just move a couple guys up and eat through the front and midline by themselves without having to worry about hitting multiple times to dig in or getting blocked off, can threaten farther, and can threaten more things with base pow 12 and Mat 7.

My Khador jacks never had trouble surviving off 10/20. :^)

You do realize most Skorne units outside of the ones that were nerfed have mediocre mat scores and the faction's infantry have poor defensive stats, right? They need Carnage up, the need something to defend them once they get up in melee. -2 Threshold on a 3" Aoe is real goddamn cornercase. And unless the shield guard spell costs 1 or is an upkeep, she's still going to have problems because quicken is an upkeep (so you have 4 available fury), and if you need to cast carnage to hit anything (and you will), she's camping 1.

>Yes, yes, because 10/19 is an unlivable stat line that nobody in the game has ever had and can never survive with.

Wasn't popular. Basically the hallmark of a "only ever plays character warnouns/collossal and never looked back" faction.

Seriously though, the obvious problem is that it appears to be comparatively more difficult to get equivilent results in what was already a fine-tuned element of skorne's operation. You paid for the titans so you didn't have to worry about the rest of the list not being able to do the things titans could do. What if titans can no longer do what titans can do? Bears worrying about. Gameplay and list construction will have to turn towards unfamiliar territory.

>also Canoneers aren't that reliable in melee; when I played them it was either a last resort thing or a "with the power of two titans I can now do the work of one!" thing. God help them with a net fury-2 deficit each; it took the both of them swinging those maces to take out one Khador heavy as it was. And they certainly aren't going to get missed even once by a Conquest now, gnawing pain will cover for Diminish but it's going to be five swings instead of two...

>*wince*

>going to need some new plans, guys. We lost our margin with the pachederms, I think. They
*balanced* us, there. They'll have made up for it *somewhere* else but we're going to have to find out where.

Did anyone else notice how the insider says that going melee instead of ranged is a core theme of theres? That has me real worried for all the ranged options we got near the end.

>So far with the Spiny Growth change and losing a point of speed, I'm not sure how they'll do it.

My predictions based on various forum proposals.

Spiny Growth goes down to 1 fury. This apparently also happened to the Cannonneer when its animus also became Self Only.

Claw attacks get buffed so it can kill heavies more reliable.

Carnivean price gets lowered so it's not such a pain to pay for. You already see this happening with lots of other heavies.

Spiny Growth expands to include models other than jacks and beasts. Armor Piercing expanded to affect small models and Anatomical Precision now ignores Tough, so there's precedent.

Now the Carnivean can run up, pummel on a target, and if it's only got 1 fury left and it doesn't look like it'll kill the target, it'll pop the final fury to give itself Spiny Growth and make it a bit tougher/disuade some counterattacks.

No matter what happens, I hardly expect the only difference between the Mk2 and Mk3 Carnivean card text to be "Self Only".

Butthurt Cryx player detected

legion's said we're the fast attack alpha strike faction and then they nerfed our heavies' speed so I wouldn't put too much into their stated themes

They nerfed one set of your beasts Speeds.

You still have SPD7 beasts, man.

And you still have some of the best movement tricks in the game.

>legion's said we're the fast attack alpha strike faction and then they nerfed our heavies' speed so I wouldn't put too much into their stated themes

Even after the nerf, they remain the fastest heavies in mk3 we've seen so far. There's no other heavy we've seen that can outrange a Scythean, especially if it retains Pathfinder.

And it's one of Legion's slower heavies because the winged ones are apparently even faster, and since they're winged, they fly right over terrain, obstacles, and intervening models- making them even faster.

Context, man.

so, do I get in now or wait a month for the 3rd edition?

get what now?

wait, unless you're absolutely sure which faction you want to play and they have models you want because of how they look

Wait. The starter boxes are just too good a deal.

get into warmahordes, play a bunch of malifaux but the community is dying in my area, so its either warmachine and hordes or 40k, so do I try getting into the game now, when a new edition is on the horizon or do I just wait, how much stuff will become obsolete if I start now?

Aradus Soldier could be good now...

>hell, they could have changed nothing and it'd be good now

So I ordered a menoth box on ebay for $25 because fuck it, why not, menoth looks cool.

Turns out it's an all metal Mk1 box. Was that a good deal?

you will need to buy a new faction card deck for like $20 to get the rules for any models you buy now but nothing will be obsolete. stuff will likely be more effective or less effective though so as I mentioned unless you're decided on a faction and want something for looks it's better to wait

It'll be fine. The only thing you're really losing is the option to magnetize your Crusader with bits from the Crusader/Templar/Vanquisher all in one heavy box.

I kinda have the feeling ranged is going to take over the game. Its 5th ed 40k all over again! Melee is kill! Game over man! Game over!

Hard to judge. The premier ranged faction, Legion, lost a hell of a lot of it's normal punch in that regard.

Isn't cygnar the premier ranged faction

They shot more, but they didn't have as much ability to kill your entire army at range like Legion did.

This!

Its turns out you did right to play alternative lists (rule of cool) when mk3 knocks at the door.

Legion's ability to kill at range was mostly Striders, Dethstalkers, and Ravagores under Lylyth2's feat.

Any hint of Marshals being usable in Mk3?