HE

you mean the guy that is a chairman of a bank the swiss government had to bail out of bancruptcy tells me a currency thats independent of his kikery has no value?
miss me with that shit

>durr hurr gold can be used for wiring

yeah wiring worth $1300 an ounce

this

The USD's value is in its ability to actually be used as a currency in daily life. Bitcoin's skyrocketing fees and transaction times due to its 1 MB block limit are preventing it from being adopted as a currency.

This. A lot of people fail to understand that value is a social construct. Everything only has value because we assign it value, hell even oxygen and water are only valuable because we want to live. If we stopped gaf about living they would be worthless.

Why the fuck are you flailing around like a bunch of cucks, it's the double-top right now, sell before the dip.
It'll go to 6k before the end of next week.
>b-b-b-but it's just FUD
Well yeah what do you think this retarded fractal isn't, pixie dust ? It's a cycle of FUD and euphoria, euphoria is over for at least a week, sell and buy back at 6k.

Kind of. Gold has some due to potential industrial use, though that does not justify it's high cost.

The dollar is valued based on the corporation that uses it as its main product which is the United States and its banks. In other words, the USA has an army and can control resources so it a sense can promise some value to the USD. As in it's a company that specializes in force, and if you fail to pay or someone refuses your payment in USD, they will use their force to support it. Same with gift cards really, when you have a gift card you basically have a currency that belongs to a much more specific company.

Bitcoin has neither practical use, nor is it backed by any corporation, such as government. So it's completely valueless in reality.

But is it >>>>>>intrinsic????

USD is a debt obligation to the USA for doing business in the USA, owning property in the USA or being employed there. If you want to do any of this, you need to pay taxes, which are socio-politically defined liabilities to the US government. Intrinsic is a loaded word, the idea should be how weighted is the value, which means what is compelling you to recognize the utility in question of this object?

The same idea applies to micro-currencies that were issued by banks through loans. It's a debt obligation to the bank, lawfully enforced. But the hierarchy of currency usually goes back to a state issued one even in antiquity, where debt obligations to a king in his currency obviously had the most political power to them, and kings would use it consciously as such in order to subjugate conquered people to the imperial rule of some king, which just meant pulling their productive power into his political-economy.

>Ford motor company has no intrinsic value, says corriente saddle company chairman

These fuckers literally say this stuff to the GOY so the price drops and they buy UP!!

YOU HAVE TO BE STUPID TO EVEN CARE WHAT HE SAYS.

>The case is the agency’s first involving misstatements and omissions by an issuer of structured notes, a complex financial product that typically consists of a debt security with a derivative tied to the performance of other securities, commodities, currencies, or proprietary indices.

What is the intrinsic value of "a debt security with a derivative tied to the performance of other securities, commodities, currencies, or proprietary indices"?

And yet over 300k stores in japan alone accept bitcoin

Yes, as long as the USA exists the dollar provides a promise of a certain amount of goods or services, backed by force from the government. Just like any gift card out there has value as long as the company it belongs to exists.

Seeing as USD is tied to an entity, its value is a portion of that entity. Bitcoin does not have any backing outside of hoping it's worth more later on.

they probably switch to monacoin or litecoin

Literally who?

literally who?

ITT gambling addicts trying to justify their habit with enough mental gymnastics to hold their own olympics

It does have intrinsic value it can be accurately counted and stored.

Oh really?
Exactly like dollars or euros or every fucking currency in the world
What did that retard even meant by that

Maybe bitcoins intrinsic value then is to increase in value. Its only increased in value since its inception therefore that can be its intrinsic value.

USD also has no intrinsic value.

wanna trade some usd?

Still not *intrinsic*

So how much is your bitcoin worth?

Kek

Like gender.

>tfw don't own enough btc to move the price

so currently about $10,756 a piece

How much is yours worth?

Bitcoin's intrinsic value comes from the fact you can convert it to nearly any currency and it's supply is the more predictable than any previous currency or material.

But you morons already knew that.

Heh, funny how for someone who doesn't believe the USD has more intrinsic value than Bitcoin, you're sure quick to give the USD value of your Bitcoin.

P.S: The question was to see how quickly you'd flaunt your value in USD ;P

About 1 tether. I say about because % of every dollar was a debt. So about -1 tether?

So many in the crypto sphere lend no weight to this, and I think it is because they are taking the criticism of bitcoin personally. It probably doesn't help that it triggers finance and banking professionals, so they like to say things in pretty heavy terms like "it has no intrinsic value". Maybe it is just the title of the article, but there is a lack of nuance to that statement. Crypto could be a platform for transactions, and as some say the coins could represent a share of limited "real estate" on that platform. But then that begs the question for any business looking at the practical benefits of using bitcoin for transactions, why not just use paypal or something else denominated in USD, payable directly 1-1 USD? Is it speed, fees, security? People claim all of these, but have these actually been evaluated by miners, exchanges, other big players in this sphere through some kind of research? Why not do market research understanding what would make this a competitive platform? Instead all I ever see is "boomers don't know bout muh bitcoin" and mania over lambos. Devs in some crypto spheres are a little more level headed, though businesses issuing ICOs and other currencies are often the scammiest bullshit that clearly don't care about the platform beyond some easy capital.

Why do people buy Bitcoin? Because its value always increases.
Why does its value keep increasing? Because people keep buying it.

...do you not see a problem with this?

USD/fiat has no intrinsic value but when you're talking about value you have to assume we're talking about it from the perspective of humans, or I suppose you could make a case for the value of continuing the existence of the planet, but either way you have to refer to "value" towards something. Things that have "intrinsic value", that is, are naturally valuable in and of themselves, still need to have something to provide that value to.

My go-to when talking to people about this, and assuming all conversations of "intrinsic value" are in relation to that value towards humans, is simply: if a meteor hit Earth tomorrow and wiped out 98% of the population, destroyed all of our technology, electricity, internet, water treatment, etc. what things would still be desirable? Usually revolves around food, shelter, women (or companionship), tools, weapons, and/or the materials or components required to construct the aforementioned. That's basically all that truly has "intrinsic value [to humans]"

I see a feedback loop.

The only problem is I didn't buy more.

no

decentralization ensures mutual value

Ikr, doesn’t even have the descency to use real fiat. Like something backed with gold. I hear great things are happening in lybia... oh wait. It’s not 2003. They own the bitcoin block chain now and the chink versions own bcash. My money is on Monero and ODN to make it through this. They will never surpass (((their))) changes an but I know what I would rather use. I can’t wait for the smart contracts linked to your mandatory chip implant. Late for work? No problem! You can’t get into your house tonight and all your assets have been digitally frozen. Remember when crypto was going to save us from the bankers? Whoops.

We can all see the paradox. But tell me: what exactly might happen that would cause Bitcoin to crash and die? What circumstances? What event?

>feedback loop
A better descriptor would be a word that starts with 'P' and rhymes with a character from Happy Days.

Like I said, *intrinsic* is a loaded word. Address the point that USD has, lets say, a value weighted by the political force behind it as a debt obligation to the USA and then I'll feel like we're having a conversation about the differences between bitcoin and most state issued fiat.

And this doesn't have to be an attack on bitcoin, but it is easy to look at the historical, anthropological record on currency and say that the origins of bitcoin are different from the majority of state issued, state backed currencies. That is just being honest about it in order to study it in a more nuanced way.

Never said that. Bitcoin's value floats against every currency in existence, I'm an American so this comparison makes the most since to me. If I were a bong I'd be doing it in pound.

But you do raise a good point. In a couple years valuing against the dollar or other fiats might be less useful and instead we'll value it against gold or other crypto.

I think they take it personally because they view it as their only chance to make it. It's sort of how people who play the lottery heavily don't believe they have other options. If you know you could make it regardless of one opportunity being missed or not, you know that you have value as a person and can always gain wealth. It's also why so many successful people can fuck up and then become successful again, their value isn't based on one asset class doing well randomly one day, it's based on the value added they contribute.

As for crypto being a platform, I can see blockchain having value in itself. However, Bitcoin is neither the entirety of crypto, neither is it the blockchain technology itself. The concept of a blockchain existed before Bitcoin, it's just Bitcoin is the big name now. More so, Bitcoin isn't actually limited, the name Bitcoin might be, but it can always branch into Bitcoin Cash, Bitcoin Gold, etc. Then there are other Cryptos that can do the same. In reality it's very unlimited but tries to give the perception of being very limited.

>having real decentralized money has no intrinsic value
good goy, sell it

Every asset class can be described as a "pump"

San Francisco real estate is a pump

the stock market is a pump

gold was once a pump and has been pumped at different times

humans aren't objective judges, we only know what the supply is and what the demand is

if enough people see bitcoin as a long term store of value it's going to remain stable and rising as more people buy in, as it stands its market cap is measly compared to other assets

6 months later
>UBS launching bitcoin trading desks

>portable
What if the power grid goes down?

>easily transact-able
Takes hours to verify a transaction

There's a lot of trolling in here but do people really not get that the words like "value" have different meanings in different context?
like how the word "organic" has a different meaning on a food package than it does in a chemical lab

Well yea, the pound also has value as it's backed by the British government by force in their territory. In short, no matter where you'd be from, you'd be comparing Bitcoin to some other currency as there is nowhere that backs Bitcoin by force.

Oh god, you're a gold stacker or some nonsense too, aren't you? Gold is pretty much a meme as much as Bitcoin now, luckily it's had the decency to stay mostly dead for now.

you mean a debt obligation to the international banking cartel. We borrow money from private bankers who lend it out to the US treasury at interest. The main reason for income tax and establishment of the IRS was the insure that the Federal Reserve would get it's payments on time, our income tax is sort of the governments collateral to allow them to borrow money from international bankers.

3 banks left btw until they have dominion. Weirdly we have beef with 2/3 and the 3rd is ripe for some CIA overthrow action. I’m sure it’s fine. I’m sure bitcoin, bcash, and ETH haven’t been comprised. I’m sure they don’t want to implement socialism, get us all chipped and running on smart contracts. It’s fine guys. Go to sleep. Islam is your friend. Communication sin has a about equality guys. It’s fine. We will be free once we give our lives entirely to the state. The AI will save us someday and it’s avsulutly not going to be a fake one controlled by the council of 13. Wow, so sleepy. Think I’m going to bed. You guys have fun arguing about your bit thingies and Fiat. Divide and conquer is a meme anyway.

Communism is about equality* (muh feminism)

I understand that there is no authority forcing us to use bitcoin. That doesn't mean it lacks value. It doesn't require force to encourage adoption. There is a reason libertarian minded people clingged onto this first.

Actually that's exactly what it means and those who like Bitcoin aren't true libertarians. Money is just a product of a company, just like any other product from any other company. The companies that make it just happen to specialize in force, and we should keep them in that sector instead of allowing them to try to get into social programs.

Now Bitcoin on the other hand has no corporate ties and no backing by anything but dreams of some fair and equal utopia created not by capitalism but internet pixies, or some nonsense. Just like Communism.

bitcoin is a ponzi scheme and satoshi has long cashed out.

just like any ponzi scheme the later you come in, the more fucked you are... the only question is how late is too late?

So if the majority of the public deem it with value while the 1% does not then does that mean they are fudding to buyback in cheap?

>free markets are anti libertarian
>scarcity is anti communist

wtf man

>We borrow money from private bankers who lend it out to the US treasury at interest. The main reason for income tax and establishment of the IRS was the insure that the Federal Reserve would get it's payments on time, our income tax is sort of the governments collateral to allow them to borrow money from international bankers.

I'm not trying to be a shit but this is really hard to penetrate because it's just not the way things work. Every way in which the US government, Treasury and Fed alike, interact with banks is based on monetary policy. You seem to be suggesting that the Fed pays private banks out of our taxes? The Fed doesn't need our taxes to insure bank reserves or issue bonds or anything like this. They do that to influence interest rates and try to control the money supply. Rich bankers have existed since antiquity, the IRS, Fed and Treasury didn't do anything to create them. The fact they still exist is incidental to anything the fed or treasury does, which is more like trying to make sure the economy is running smoothly under the conditions that preceded their existence such as banking and finance.

is communist*

The US dollar has no intrinsic value,..?

he's right. it has extrinsic value. everything i buy with my BTC profits is stuff I couldnt have bought with fiat gains in the same time frame. its value outside of jew tricks.

Just to reiterate this in another way, the government prints money. It doesn't need our taxes to pay anyone. It can print as much money to pay bankers as it could ever want. It taxes us because taxes are a debt obligation to the government which circulates money and creates an economy, a political-economy, or a market that is unified under the political power of a state. They have the right to issue the currency, and the power to compel us to pay it to them. Since these debt obligations are transferable, they are valuable to other people who also require them to pay the state. Even if you did business in chickens, for instance, the IRS would consider that a taxable transaction on the fair market price of chickens at that time. You'd need to acquire USD to pay them for that, so why transact in chickens? Why no just accept USD for payment? Or maybe chickens and USD? In the latter, there will be an economic gravity which will eventually result in you just accepting USD, or overwhelmingly doing so.

Think of it this way, if bitcoin is a scam why would any of these 'experts' be so concerned about your regular joe losing money? Why weren't they screaming about subprime mortgages this loudly back in 07? The truth is you can't trust any financial advice because everyone has a bias and has something to gain from you, but at the end of the day I trust anonymous people more than '''''experts''''.

The markets would be free, just cut governments ability to regulate and leave it as an entity that produces currency while holding a military force to back said currency in the areas where it's used. You have choice to pick which government and which currency you subscribe too.

Bitcoin on the other hand is not a product of a corporation, nor is it backed by one, it is a malformed cancer that has grown on libertarians and will be the very thing that corrupts their purity.

>DOOD IM WOKE LMAO

You can still run bitcoin network over laptops n shiet.
It's quite possible to bring up a small wifi network using a spare PC.
Just ask my VIA chip piratebox.

None of them are screaming, they're just providing their opinion. Why are they providing their opinion on this? Probably because they get asked multiple times by some idiot reports about it and eventually they just say "Leave me alone, it's bullshit I don't care about."

BItcoin HAS intrinsic value: trustworthiness based on math.

You can't "print" more bitcoins for less than a newly mined bitcoin is worth. And even if, there's a finite supply.

Chairman Axel Weber things trust is intrinsic because he's on the board of directors of a Swiss bank.

So I guess it makes sense he sees no value.

But I wonder how much of his net worth he stores in e.g. US dollar banknotes?

I'm not understanding the importance of the military backing any particular currency especially bitcoin. That big strong military is nice and all, but they can't do dick against a decentralized currency. There is no nation to attack, bitcoin has no political objective, it just is. You don't have to accept it or ever deal with it if you don't like and that's okay.

You fail to realise that for one instance, bitcoin has a backing in private electric consumption on a global scale. Bitcoin has tangable and intangable, underlying value as a security protocol for any entity, person or corporation. An asset, why do you think Goldman Sachs is interested in aquirying it en mass

Fiat doesn't have "intrinsic" value either

"You can't print more bitcoins!" Bitcoin Cash, Bitcoin Gold, Bitcoin Coin, Bitcoin potato...

Ethereum, Monero, Ark, LTC, etc, all that are basically boitcoin and can randomly replace it on a whim.

Why are you mentioning things that are not Bitcoin

But user...none of those are bitcoins....

Even the actual forks of bitcoin are different than the version the forked from. At any rate simply existing doesn't give them any value. It works just like any other currency, faith. We all know and recognize btc for what it is. Simply forking off doesn't automatically transfer value. It's almost as if its a free market system in which economic actors pick and chose products they like sending price signals though the market in a way we have all understood for hundreds of years.

With no fiat, there are no nations, with no nations there's no bitcoin because religious nut jobs like Isis have taken over as their military is based on imaginary currencies (similar to how bitcoin is based on faith) of holy virgins in the afterlife and have made bitcoin haram.

Heck, it's why you see all these shit holes around the world based on scarce resources such as oil as opposed to their own designed currency.

Ok then, try sending BTC directly to BCH ... I fucking dare you...

Exactly.

They provide a utility bitcoin does not and people value them as such.
Monero is big game considering you can go completely user with it.

>they can't do dick against a decentralized currency.

They audit businesses like Coinbase about transactions they and their customers are taking part in in bitcoin, and then knock on doors not so politely asking for money in USD. THAT is what circulates USD as the primary currency over bitcoin. Because you need it to pay them, or you're losing all of you shit and going to jail. Everybody needs it for this reason, and so it circulates as a medium of exchange, a debt obligation owed by everyone in the economy. I don't think the US government has any reason to attack bitcoin legally as a platform for transactions, anymore than they would Visa as a platform for transactions. But ultimately that is all it could ever be as long as you need to pay your taxes in USD. If bitcoin was widely used for tax avoidance from all economic strata and this became a big enough issue, I can guarantee you that the government would shut down businesses like Coinbase and make bitcoin illegal. USD is still centrally controlled, primarily through banks. They can find out where anybody's dollars are going through their bank account.

Bitcoin is global. It is international. It is also a safer store of value than local fiat in many nations, like the one you're describing. People there would rather keep their assets in something secure like Bitcoin than fiat.

All currency is based on faith. You failed econ, try again.

Okay, Hungary has it's own currency and really any country or anyone could make a new one but that doesn't mean it will bring down the doller, the yen or even the yuang.

I care so little I don't even know what currency Hungary uses.

Yeah and I'm anticipating things to get violent, I really am.

I'd rather go to prison than give up my bitcoins. I can carry them in my fucking brain.

Us army and bureaucrats backs up USD

user look up the word intrinsic, please.

no different from money

Usd is intrinsically backed by those institutions that why it has value

>has no intrinsic value

Is the single statement that instantly lets me know whoever is talking is a moron that is either a) being purposely malicious or b) has no fucking clue what he is talking about.

>The USD's value is in its ability to actually be used as a currency in daily life.

Really? If that was the case the value of USD wouldn't go up or down because the demand would remain the same (people tend to buy shit at constant rates), and yet, the value of the dollar is dropping and is dependant on global confidence in the currency.

I think the word you're looking for is 'extrinsic' value. As in relying on an external force or power to provide you with value. If the US was vaporised by Yellowstone tomorrow, USD would have no value, hence it is not INTRINSIC. In other words INNATE, in other words VALUABLE IN AND OF ITSELF YOU DUMB FUCK.

Just to expand, because there might be some Veeky Forumstards who still fall for this retarded reasoning.

What is the single most important thing that makes a currency or store of value work? The answer is the agreement between the parties who will use it.

Now what is the problem with spoken agreement? People can be deceitful and will stab you in the back for their own gain. This is where the blockchain comes in. It guarantees that spoken agreements will always stand and there is no possibility for backstabbing.

That's all you need for a currency. After that the arbitrary value is whatever the parties agree it should be. If the collective exchanges their fiat to the point where 1 bitcoin is worth 1 million fiat papers or 5 cows or 2 jugs of milk then that's the "intrinsic" value at the time. All that's needed is a trust mechanism (the blockchain) and everything else is handled by the free market.