Alignment

Which one was Lawful Good, and which one was Chaotic Good?

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They're both Lawful Good, they just follow different codes.

I would probably say they're both Neutral Good but started at Lawful and Chaotic; Tony's character starts off VEEEERY Chaotic Good and his near-death experience causes him to see things differently and he starts to understand holy shit maybe there should be some kind of anything keeping the living nukes from walking around.

Cap goes the other direction; he starts off all MY COUNTRY TIS OF THEE which is super-easy to do when the guys you're punching are literal Nazis. Winter Soldier, on the other hand, is about muddying the waters and coming to realise that you can no longer trust grand sets of laws - because those laws and principles don't necessarily reflect what is RIGHT. So he starts going rogue.

/Thread.

Cap is Chaotic Evil at the end of Civil War, he's willing to ignore Law and Good for the sake of protecting an Evil man for no good reason other than childhood friendship

>Bucky
>Evil

Did you not see the movie? It literally opens with "this is how Bucky is being mind-controlled and is therefore not responsible for his actions". Charm Person does not cause someone to change alignments.

Not sure, but you know they're both PCs because of how quickly they resorted to infighting and how easily they were manipulated by the bad guys.

Bucky is completely willing to kill the police coming to arrest him, at which point he wasn't under orders/mind control

> police.
> not HYDRA agents.

Pick one. Reminder that when he eventually was caught and brought in he was subjected to mind control.

First of all, at that point he's RESPONDING to lethal force; those guys are explicitly shooting on sight. That's just fair play and basic self-defence; that's how police are supposed to work, for instance - only deploying lethal force in circumstances where lethal force is a real threat.

Second of all, no, he's just rougher with them than Cap is. I don't recall seeing a single fatality in that sequence.

It's more that he doesn't care if they die than trying to outright kill them.

I'm glad they included this line
Wish they had Cap himself say it tho

HYDRA literally doesn't exist at this point in the MCU

Yes, because cap explicitly stops him killing at least 3 dudes

I liked the way they put it in.

Well technically it does, just not in the way it used to and completely under Hive's control. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Hive isn't referring to it as Hydra anymore and the last episode killed the remaining hydra leadership

And again, those guys are explicitly coming to kill him, NOT arrest him. The reason Cap is there is "if you come with me, maybe you don't get shot by the SWAT guys who are about to shoot you".

It's not evil to defend yourself just because the person attacking you is a cop.

I don't know shit about agents of shield, but Hydra constantly coming back is sort of a thing

This. It's their fucking motto.

> HYDRA doesn't exist.
> bad guy literally gets ahold of HYDRA technology to use it against Buckey, a HYDRA sleeper cell.
> HYDRA doesn't exist.

Also implying they haven't gotten so good at this that everyone believes HYDRA isn't a thing anymore.

That thing with the scientist who uploaded his brain into WW2 tech was utterly brilliant if you think about it from a super-intelligent evil cabal point of view.

Heil HYDRA!

Its like if you cut off one head another appears.

>applying dnd alignments outside of dnd

Tony was Lawful Right, for that whole film while getting fucked over constantly. Spiderman was the highlight though he was great, and Aunt May was smokin'.

I'm rewatching Age of Ultron.

Why did Quicksilver had to die. He was so fun. And much less mopey than his siter.

Tony was a kneejerk idiot like always.
>get blown up
>suddenly decide to stop selling weapons
>invent unlimited energy
>decide you can't use it to improve the world because it can be used as a weapon
>technology gets stolen and turned into a drone army
>design a load of helicarriers to protect the world
>helicarriers get hijacked by Hydra with the intention of killing millions
>no problem, I'll just build a super intelligent robot army
>robot army predictably turns evil
>woman tells him her babby got crushed by a building
"SHUT DOWN EVERYTHING"

If Stark had died in that desert, the world would probably be less fucked up

Because it's a relatively shitty movie, plus Quicksilver is much better in the X-Men movies while there is no Scarlet Witch in those. So when the inevitable merger finally happens, they don't have to worry about multiple Quicksilvers.

Also, I hate the fuck out of the fact that in Civil War Scarlet Witch is just a telekinetic. With random ability to depower Vision because magical jewelry.

Pretty clear cut examples of Tony being Lawful Neutral while Cap was Chaotic Good. The Accords would not stop people from being hurt by disasters and would likely cause more innocents to die during the bureaucratic lag to actually request the Avengers assistance, yet it would provide a measure of order and, well, bureaucracy to what was previously just a bunch of more-or-less demigods doing whatever the fuck they wanted. Cap was willing to do whatever it took to protect his childhood friend who had been both mind-controlled and framed for various wrongs, willing to become a criminal from the very government he once embodied in order to stand by his single link to the past.

Yeah, it really pissed me off how they took Cap's most famous quote and put it in the lips of Next Door Neighbor / Secret Agent / Love Interest. A fat black dude a few rows down actually yelled out, "That's not your line, bitch!" at the midnight release.

Also, gotta love how everything's just a-okay at the end. No harm, no foul.

>mfw edgelord supreme Crossbones aloha snackbars himself like three seconds into the movie

They promised that characters would actually die. Killing Carter off-street and Crossbones in the first fucking scene doesn't count. I'm mad. Everything is so fucking low stakes because the good guys always win and no one important ever dies.

*off screen

It's going to be one of those nights, isn't it?

>>Also, gotta love how everything's just a-okay at the end. No harm, no foul.

Did we watch the same movie? At the end Stark is alone on the compound, Team Cap is on the lam in Wakanda under T'Challa's protection. In the short term Zemo won, he didn't care that he got caught and is imprisoned. He destroyed the Avengers as a group. Yeah sure, we know the team will get back together because we know there are an assload of MCU movies coming, but as far as his world is concerned the Avengers have been disbanded.

Almost wished they'd managed to work Nuke into the movie. Him and Crossbones are such gloriously shitty characters. Would be fun to see the two nutcases side-by-side, laughing as they gun down Nigerian civilians in the opening sequence.

B-but Warmachine is crippled! That's like, super intense, man! Even though it was perfectly set up for that to actually kill him.

Also, MCU Vision kinda a shit. But I think the thing the movie has me saltiest about is the fact that instead of giving Falcon the ability to mentally control birds, they just gave him a shitty like drone. Probably for product placement purposes.

Wanda's powers came from the staff's gem, makes sense there's a relation with Vision's gem, which is the same gem

Honestly, it would've felt just plain weird for him to be able to mentally control birds to me - I think they did it because they want him being more a Normal Guy with Tech Stuff, with product placement being a nice bonus thing

Telekinesis and telepathy is way easier to explain to normies than chaos magic and probability control

Really, the only thing I like about the Vision is the knowledge that once the Infinity War starts, you're going to get to see his forehead ripped apart.

Fucking this. There's no real sense of tension or stakes, when something like Civil War ends up with zero causalities, one cripple in a super-robo-suit, and a bunch of scraped knees. It really hit me as sort of tonally awkward when you have Spiderman just being an amazed kid fighting beside and against some of his heroes, and then you have Tony getting buildings knocked ontop of him and suffering extensively injuries and bloodloss.

I don't disagree. I suppose I'm more just annoyed with the fact they made Redwing into a drone, rather than just excluding the character altogether. Or maybe just have some hilariously retarded shit when he has the falcon equivalent of a K9, more traditional falconer rather than a full on bird-mancer.

Then at least let her keep her fear magic that she had in Ultron. Now, she's nothing more than "pew pew mind bullets." Or, just try and assume audiences would be vaguely smart enough to get the general idea of, "She fucks with luck" and toss out a scene of two that's along the lines of the Quicksilver's bits in Days of Future Past. A fight-scene that resolves itself with Rube Goldberg-level luck.

Heck, even the Vision blames everything on him.

I kinda figured her not using the fear magic was literally her not WANTING to use it, considering what it did last time. The whole Ultron disaster wouldn't have happened if she hadn't been using that stuff on someone who could ACT on what he saw, after all, so she may well have made the conscious decision to never use it again.

Both were Chaotic Evil.

>Tension
>Stakes
>Take note Hollywood, death is literally the only way to have these things. Literally no other way.
>I know Quicksilver died, but I'm going say that doesn't count because I don't want it to.

Did anyone get a laugh out of seeing Captain America and Bucky together kicking the shit out of Germans AGAIN?

>Stark is alone on the compound,
Did you miss Vision and Rhodey?

Speaking of that, what actually happened to Red Skull?

I mean, when the cube zapped him it appeared to open up a vista of space that he was sucked away into, and then the first Avenger the cube was directly shown to work as a gateway to some other part of the galaxy.

Is he still out there somewhere chilling with Thanos?

>I know Quicksilver died, but I'm going say that doesn't count because I don't want it to.

It was a self-contained single film throwaway death, only happened as a plot point to set up for later Wanda angst.

Kill a core Avenger, and shit will SRSFAEC with a quickness.

He gone because Elrond didn't want to do it anymore

You left out the part where his response to hearing about the babby crushing was to bring a child into potentially-lethal combat.

dont worry, agents of shield isnt canon

>watching marvel shite
>wasting a thread on marvel shite

There was a HYDRA agent buying Cross Particles in Ant-Man.

I'm so fucking annoyed with superhero movies nowadays bringing in characters that have literally no resemblance to their comic book characters. Zemo has absolutely nothing in common with his comic book character, aside from his name. Even Lex Luthor in Bats v Supes still had the whole kyrptonite and fights Superman shit, in addition to being the Joker and nothing at all like Lex. But there is absolutely zero reason to call Zemo by that name.

It was a deliberate bluff. It doesn't make him more like the character but I can see exactly why they did it. They got us looking where they wanted, making the assumptions they wanted.

>teehee, the Mandarin isn't -actually- the Mandarin
>teehee, Lex Luthor isn't -actually- Lex Luthor
>teehee, Helmut Zemo isn't -actually- Helmut Zemo
>teehee, Starlord's dad isn't -actually- Starlord's dad
>etc, etc

It's just fucking annoying. Besides, normies don't even know who the fuck Zemo is, so it's not like they're really bluffing 90% of the audience. Plus, you're turning Zemo into even more of a literal who while Nathan Fillion's already been cast for Wonder Man. So I reckon we can go ahead and expect him to also be completely rewritten in terms of his origin story.

>teehee, the Mandarin isn't -actually- the Mandarin

Well, that one is implied to ACTUALLY exist. The actor got himself offed for insulting him with that portrayal.

So that was more 'The Mandarin IS the Mandarin but he wasn't the guy in the movie'

Who gives a fuck about a robot and a cripple.

In other news I feel really bad for Hawkeye's family.

No, it was filmmaking by accounting.
Fox and Marvel were playing chicken with two characters that nobody has ever given three fucks about ever*. The X men came out first, and their version of Quicksilver was badass enough that Marvel just went 'welp' and shot theirs in the head.
(*Okay, not fair. Maybe, MAYBE, somebody out there gives a shit about Scarlet Witch, because Marvel heroines are so shitty that it's easy to be in their top-tier. But nobody, NOBODY, has ever given a shit about Quicksilver.)

beautiful

But Tony's point isn't that suits would've stopped any of this, he just wants people to feel safer. He clearly doesnt give a shit about Ross

>teehee, the Mandarin isn't -actually- the Mandarin

Like said, there's a short video (like 10-15 minutes long) that chronicles Iron Man 3's Mandarin days in prison. If memory serves, he's casually enjoys the celebrity status he has amongst the inmates in the prison for standing up to Iron Man 3. Suddenly a prison break occurs from a group outside, break Mandarin out, who is confused - and slightly terrified - at how efficient (ie., brutal) they are at freeing him. He finally gets tossed into a vehicle and driven off, and inside he asks something along the lines of, "so... who do you work for?"

The reply is along the lines of, "a man who is VERY pissed at you besmirching his good name."

This "revealation" only followed the backlash to Mandarin's portayal in the Iron Man 3.

Honestly, I'm amazed this happened at all.
I figured Marvel was being very, very careful about this to keep the internet from accidentally exploding in Yellow Peril accusations.

You know I hadn't thought of that, but now that you mention it.

ㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ

>Cap's most famous quote

It's a Mark Twain quote; Cap cites it as such in the comic. In the film it's a paraphrase.

Huh, color me impressed and yellow. Don't suppose you have a link to that video? I always found it weird that they made two shitty Mandarins, after they'd built up the character so effectively across the course of three Iron Man movies. Fuck, that propoganda film from 3? Top notch. And it isn't even like you have to use a straight-up copy of his origins from the comics. Could easily swap his alium tech to the dudes that invaded during the Avengers rather than Fing Fang Foom's bros.

...and speaking of Fing Fang Foom, Nextwave movie when? Seems like the logical thing to follow Deadpool.

Couldn't understand why Tony never called Ross on his shit considering Ross wasn't being reigned in when he illegally provided a defective Super Soldier Serum to Blonsky, playing a major part in his becoming the Abomination and wrecking Harlem.

Iron Man argues that, by signing the Sokovia Accords and giving the world's governments control over the Avengers, the will achieve order that will benefit the welfare of others. This is Lawful Good, especially since Iron Man bends the law at the end when following it wouldn't be Good (which is what a Lawful Good character would do, and what a Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil character would never do).

Captain America argues that, by signing the Sokovia Accords, they'll give up their freedom to choose the right thing, and questions a strong government (because agendas change, and what if they decide to send them into a situation that they don't think is good, or keep them out of a situation where they need to help others). This is Chaotic Good.

I noticed this on my second viewing.

It's almost as if these films are adaptations and not direct translations of the source material. I'm mean, I'm sure they could have explained that Helmut Zemo is the child of a Cap villain that hasn't appeared in a film before that was raised under the ideals of the Third Reich and to destroy Captain America who halfway through the film becomes a byronic villain who seeks to rule the world to save it from itself, but I doubt they could spare the screentime for the mind-transfer into the comatose body of his Counter-Earth version. And really, if you don't have a mind-transfer into the Counter-Earth version of himself, you don't have Zemo.

It's something he doesn't know about because they silenced it and basically shifted all blame on Harlem to the Hulk (something that isn't hard to do because it's not like the bystanders would be able to tell Hulk and the Abomination apart).

>It's something he doesn't know about
The Incredible Hulk's stinger was Tony meeting with Ross to discuss if Abomination could be made to join the Avengers Initiative. Tony knows about it.

No, but they were fighting in the middle of the street so it's not like people would be unaware that there is another giant muscle guy.

Because Marvel is desperate to forget the techincally-canon Hulk movie exists. And likewise can't make new solo Hulk movies because of retarded rights issues. Goodbye, Planet Hulk.

So then why use the name Zemo, which means nothing to the general audience but triggers comic book autists? You could have just called him Slav Squatinov, and nothing at all would have been lost except you'd have made a relatively interesting and unique character for your film.

Like I really loved the character in the movie, but it shares nothing -at all- with the actual Zemo aside from his name.

You seem to be misunderstanding a fundamental part of HYDRA. Theres ALWAYS alwaysalwaysalways more HYDRA. Theres never not. That their whole point. HYDRA at that point is so many organizations under different names that most don't even know they're HYDRA.
Put it this way. Let say the team fucks up that "last" remaining HYDRA base. Nazi's Incorporated at roughly the same time gets a memo from the boss man. Before you know it they're wearing HYDRA uniforms and slapping HYDRA logo's on everything in sight and out steps the red skull or some ripoff version of him or fucking something and the camera pans out to "Hail, HYDRA!"
Ad infinitum.

He knows the official story: the Abomination tried to stop the Hulk from rampaging in Harlem, but failed. Hence why he's talking about Abomination joining them, because he was told Abomination was a good guy.

This is in Marvel One-Shot: The Consultant, which explains the stinger.

marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/Marvel_One-Shot:_The_Consultant

>They see him as a "war hero" and blame his fight in New York City with Bruce Banner on Banner himself.

Stark doesn't know the truth that Abomination was bad, let alone the stuff about stealing defective super serum.

>Yes, because cap explicitly stops him killing at least 3 dudes

Wrong. He even says something along the lines of "I'm not going to kill anyone".
Even then, this is MCU, a punch from a bionic arm sends you through a wall but that isn't lethal.

One, triggering comic autists is fun. Two, you'd get a ton of bitching for using an OC instead of an established character, even if it's not comic accurate. Three, studio mandate.

Ah, that's interesting. Pretty smart of them really, left them open to use either Abom or Ross in the future. Thanks for clarifying that for me.

I was going to make a lenghty post then I saw this.
Perfect.

Cap can't be Chaotic anything, he only goes against authorities based on circumstances, not out of any specific sentiment or ideology against them.

>Couldn't understand why Tony never called Ross on his shit considering Ross wasn't being reigned in when he illegally provided a defective Super Soldier Serum to Blonsky, playing a major part in his becoming the Abomination and wrecking Harlem.

And this is why the Accords position is untenable in the movies almost as much as the pro-registration camp in the comics.
The two biggest proponents (Stark and Ross) are both responsible for half of the bad shit that happened and are just trying to shift the blame.

> Which one was Lawful Good, and which one was Chaotic Good?
They are both Chaotic Evil.

Did Marvel make yet another comicbook-inspired movie? Will there be memes again?

Depending on your interpretation, following your own set of rules (or the rules of the greater good, this time depending on your interpretation of Cap') can be Lawful or Chaotic

Except bucky literally states he wont kill any of them, and they are framing him anyway so ...

Cap is good first and chaotic,lawful,neutral second. And he occasionally fucks up more and more as the story progresses on being good. So what does that tell you about his stance on being chaotic, lawful, or neutral?

Hell in the comics he actually stops and says only HIS morals matter and that literally everyone elses moral compass is wrong.
Serious it was one of those moments where the fucking schizophrenic shouts to the whitelabs coats "I'm not wrong! You're wrong! I'm the only one thats sane!"

Zemo was by far the weakest part of the film

I saw a few posts on /co/ that made a good point. While this Zemo has little to nothing to do with the character, it wouldn't be acceptable for a completely OC character to actually win, so naming him Zemo is a compromise.

Definitely wasn't expecting him to try to blow his own brains out.

Following that, anyone is lawful as long as they follow their own set of rules. You could argue that Robin Hood is lawful because he follows his own set of rules. That's ridiculous.

That's not how lawful works. Lawful is about believing in authority. Captain America no longer believes in authority and actively distrusts it without giving it a chance. He believes in their individual freedom to choose to do right. That's chaotic.

I actually really liked him. Nothing but determination and mortal skill and he downed an organization made of gods.

I REALLY liked that he didn't get a big villain fight. He was a clever instigator, not a guy who turns up in Kryptonite powered armour to slug his opposition.
That and he's been set up for later use if they want to have someone start a Prison Break on the Raft.

>You could argue that Robin Hood is lawful because he follows his own set of rules.

Actually, you can argue that Robin Hood in some versions IS Lawful.

He's fighting for King Richard the Lionhearted, the true king of England against a man who has stolen his authority and is running his country in the ground.

yeah he should have used his super glue to kill people

Yep, some versions of Robin Hood are lawful, but not because "he's following his own set of rules."

Civil War was a stealth origin story for Zemo. He's supposed to start acting in a Loki-like roll and Feige and co really want to do Thunderbolts.

Thunderbolts would be god damn awesome. Likely kick the crap out of Suicide Squad.

Yes it is, they're explicitly the reason the Avengers found HYDRA at the beginning of Age of Ultron and basically everything happening in it is building up to the Inhumans movie in a few years

>everything happening in it is building up to the Inhumans movie in a few years
Inhumans movie has been scrapped in favour of Black Widow and Spider-Man.

>Inhumans movie
it isn't on the MCU time table anymore

the guy that was pushing for the Inhumans movie is no longer involved in the MCU movies

Hey, quick question, since I trust you guys better than /co/ on such matters: How is this movie when compared to the version of the story in the comics?
I *loathed* the comic, since it squandered a lot of potential on bullshit and faffing around, with barely any redeeming moments far and few between.

What? fuck, I missed that. A little disappointed now.

Hmmm... May be they made a same deal with Fox, as they made with Sony?

You'll hate it. It keeps to overarching themes such as ironman and cap hating each other but how it gets there is by completely different though tangentially related paths. It even skews almost all origin stories but the themes and faffing remain over all.