/cofd/&/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General Thread

So hunt spirits. They get back up after a regular hunt; it takes an extreme and specific kind of violence to keep them down forever.

And yes, most packs don't waste their time "randomly" killing people; there aren't enough werewolves in the world to have them dicking around. Every hunt has a purpose, if only from the pack's perspective, some material good that it accomplishes.

>do werewolves ACTUALLY have to kill or is it all the religious and tribal dogma?
>Primal Urge determines how often they HAVE to hunt something, and since hunting involves all five forms,that WILL end in something being dead.
Hunting doesn't necessarily involve murder. Eaters of the Dead in particular do their best to avoid murdering humans, due to their ̶L̶o̶d̶g̶e̶ Tribal Ban, which would require they use the bones and eat the flesh of their prey.

Werewolves also tend to be unsatisfied hunting only deer. They need a Predator style challenge. Each Tribe and many of the Lodges is all about deciding which prey is the most worthy.

Werewolves can and do Hunt in ways that don't involve an explicit kill, but the ones that tend to do so are usually only doing it because they're going after mortals, or powerful spirits that they want to cow but not kill. In fact, besting a Spirit in the Hunt could be a good way to get a powerful ally to respect you. Wanting a Human prey to face justice from the legal system (or get mauled by their own forces) is a good example of when a Werewolf might want to spare Prey. The Burn Notice or Leverage crews, for instance. Blood Talons might also interpret their Tribal Vow to allow for them to show mercy, or provide a "next time we won't stop when our jaws are at your throat" threat.

Most human hunters are hiking into the woods and waiting patiently in the outdoors. They're not several hundred pound killing machines that could track prey across oceans and cut through a steel wall.

In 1e, a Verge was where Shadow overlapped with the material. I thought in 2e it would be a more general phenomena, where any two realms could overlap.

Alright then fair enough.
It seems to me that werewolf lacks a bit of direction. Honestly I kind of find that with most of the nWoD games. Except for Hunter which is just Kill monsters,Capture monsters, study monsters or a combination there of.
Maybe I just need to read more to understand it.
I also just really liked oWoD werewolves.

>Hunting deer isnt just a peaceful vacation.
Hunting a deer is trivial for a werewolf. It's jerking off when a (wo)man hasn't touched you for years. A bit of fun, but it's not what you want.

That said, werewolves don't typically randomly kill people in a city. That can easily cause problems. Kill humans causing trouble for your territory or your pack. Kill spirits. Hell, even kill animals, if you're hungry.

>Hunting doesn't necessarily involve murder. Eaters of the Dead in particular do their best to avoid murdering humans, due to their ̶L̶o̶d̶g̶e̶ Tribal Ban, which would require they use the bones and eat the flesh of their prey.
Sure, but Eaters of the Dead aren't the norm. The books make it abundantly clear Hunts typically end in death and that murdering humans is a thing werewolves do.

Werewolf has a TON of direction BECAUSE you're out there killing monsters and protecting your turf. Most of the games have really strong narrative focus, aside from Vampire.

>The books make it abundantly clear Hunts typically end in death and that murdering humans is a thing werewolves do.
I know. That's why I listed reasons a Pack might not kill prey, and justifications for that.

Eh I suppose. Like what I mean is for example in oWoD your goal is to fuck with the Wyrm and in nWoD its to protect your turf? To be spirit police? Again maybe I am just ignorant.

The goal of the Forsaken is to advance their pack and uphold Father Wolf's legacy as guardian of the boundaries. They're apex predators who ensure human and spirit do not mix inappropriately, while cultivating both the human and spirit worlds for harmonious (or profitable) harvests.

You got a little kid who goes to a local school? Well, maybe you're going to focus more attention on policing the spirits that linger there, feeding on and encouraging the tense emotions of stressed-out teachers, anxiety-ridden kids, etc., etc. Then there's the Hosts, the Pure, other packs, mankind.. all sorts of shit.

I guess its me liking the way nWoD was set up. With clear definable enemies and goals. I am not a DM so the open endedness I dont particularly care for. If I play with someone who can create an interesting enough story I might like it more.

"Fuck with the Wyrm" is a very limiting aspect. It's pretty much impossible to do anything in werewolf other than join the Garou Nation's incompetent terrorism missions. "Protect your turf" is a much more meaningful and personal focus, especially with all the various ways that can be expressed.

I assume you mean "me liking the way oWoD was set up".
Which, again, if you want to be an ecoterrorist and only an ecoterrorist, sure, Apocalypse is a great game. But if you want to do anything even slightly outside of that incredibly narrow scope, it's a lot harder.

"Hunt things" is as broad a possibility space as you can get for a game about people who are part spirit and turn into 9 foot tall murder machines when they get pissed off.

its not even the eco terrorist angle which in of itself is fun but its more about me wanting a bit of direction. Like I sure if I actually played the game with a good DM I might like it more.
And protecting your turf I find a bit more boring then attacking Pentex tbqhwyf

>And protecting your turf I find a bit more boring then attacking Pentex
Thing is: attacking some corporate holdings is totally a thing in Forsaken, if that corporation is somehow an obstacle to you. Don't like that McDonalds is opening another franchise in your old neighborhood and driving out local ma and pa cheeseburgers? Time to rip out Ronald's heart.

>Time to rip out Ronald's heart.
Can this creepy clown come alive if nearby Infrastructure has a leak or something?

But they are not actively evil unlike Pentex.

Well, sure, but that's because Pentex was a cartoon villain. There are still awful people in the world, and corporations do awful things.

>was a cartoon villain
The best kinds of villains.

Forsaken HAS focus. It just has more potential things that you can focus on, and more ways to go about it.

This is essentially one of the two main differences between oWoD and nWoD: oWoD has one singular dominant player option and any deviation from it becomes significantly more difficult. This is what Metaplot is. It's "this is the way the game works and this is what you will do". nWoD on the other hand instead gives you several options and a framework to create your own stories that focus on what you want. Werewolf has several themes about anger issues, pushing away the ones you love, creating a family, working together, and dealing with things that are beyond your understanding, and it gives focus with Urum Da Takas: "The Wolf Must Hunt". How you hunt, what you hunt, and why you hunt are up to you.

You can play Apocalypse style games in Forsaken.
You can't play Forsaken style games in Apocalypse.

.

(The second major difference is that oWoD uses stereotypes while nWoD uses archetypes)

Guys, likes oWoD. He's a lost case.

oWoD have Wraith.

Your not wrong and I get it.

I like both actually. I just like them both for different reasons.

Oh come on, don't tell me hunting (deer) isn't going to be decently challenging for a werewolf. It certainly is for a human or for a wolf, and they don't have much in the way of free tools that helps more than a human's gun or a wolf's speed.

>Oh come on, don't tell me hunting (deer) isn't going to be decently challenging for a werewolf
That's exactly what I'm telling you. Werewolves are vastly superior to both humans and wolves.

what? :D

What?
Werewolves would have zero difficulty hunting a deer. They're stronger, faster, and can track like superstars.

They're stronger (virtually irrelevant for hunting a durr). As far as being faster...? What is the difference in speed between a werewolf that turns into a wolf vs a wolf?

All this is sans gifts, obviously.

>Like what I mean is for example in oWoD your goal is to fuck with the Wyrm and in nWoD its to protect your turf? To be spirit police? Again maybe I am just ignorant.

I honestly think you would come around after a more thorough readthru of the material. If you want big "canon enemies", look into the Hosts, Maeljin, Idigam, Pure; if you want "canon bigbad corps", maybe look into Hunter; if you want focused settings with unique setups of status quo and shit to do, look into the sample cities at the end of core books (and The Pack) etc.
CofD's toolbox approach, albeit a huge boon of the games, can be at the same time a barrier to those who're trying to approach from oWoD. Don't make the mistake of judging the games too early, based on half-truths and mis(sing)information.

Anyone run a game with "network" party? I mean characters using web to communicate and do stuff together.

Strength is pretty important when you're hunting with your claws and fangs. That's why it takes a pack of real wolves.
As for speed, Urhan get +5 Speed, but instead of using Stamina+Athletics in a chase, they use Speed, as a dice pool. They also get to use a Celerity type ability. And that's aside from the Urshul's ability to cripple targets with even a grazing attack.

I don't have the animal stats on me, though

>Don't make the mistake of judging the games too early
I am honestly not. Its just my PoV from only gleaming bits and pieces here and there.

>Strength is pretty important when you're hunting with your claws and fangs.

Well okay, my point is that one wolf chasing down a Bambi all over the place isn't easy by any stretch. I'd also only expect killing it to be easy for a lone werewolf if they just use Down and Dirty

>Its just my PoV from only gleaming bits and pieces here and there

>based on half-truths and mis(sing)information

i never said it was an accurate point of view and I admitted all the time I am probably wrong. Stop putting words in my mouth.

And all I've said was read the book before asking about basic things you can't know aren't in the book because you haven't read it yet. It's for your own good. If it really does interest you.

That's judging something too early.

It's incredibly easy, to the point that there likely won't be much of a chase to begin with. It would take a human hunter a weekend to hunt a deer. It'll take an Uratha pack a few hours at most, but more likely no more than ten minutes to find and bring down a deer from the moment they set foot in the forest. And they're not going to go for Bambi in the first place, they're going to chase down the silver stag that locals think is a myth. The Great White Stag might be a suitable challenge, but it's not going to be anything near what Sacred Prey can offer.

This conversation isn't really going anywhere. You both have valid viewpoints. Don't harass people for not having read the books; don't argue about how things are or aren't when you're just gleaning bits and pieces. Or at the very least, ask questions instead of making statements.

Some werewolves are born of werewolves.

They don't have to kill. The hunt does not have to end in death (some lodges disagree, if you don't want to kill, don't join them).
>and since hunting involves all five forms,that WILL end in something being dead.
This is incorrect.
>A werewolf who doesn't kill won't burst into flames or vanish in a puff of smoke, so in that sense they don't have to. But it gets under their skin.
This is also not true. The writers and developer has covered this in the forums, and the book doesn't say a hunt has to end in death.>Cant you hunt in a constructive and positive way? Just buy some deer tags and go camping for a week or so.
Killing monsters can be constructive and positive. Things like the hosts wreck lives and environments.

But you can also hunt for things like an ancient relic.

>Sure, but Eaters of the Dead aren't the norm. The books make it abundantly clear Hunts typically end in death and that murdering humans is a thing werewolves do.
Killing humans is a thing werewolves do, it's not a thing all werewolves do.

>This is also not true.
It's absolutely true. Refusing the Hunt is unnatural for werewolves. The book makes this abundantly clear- hell, avoiding Siskur-Dah makes your Harmony go out of whack.

> and the book doesn't say a hunt has to end in death.

Not all Hunts end in death. The vast majority do.

Eating meat is a thing humans do, not a thing all humans do. But you're still correct when you say most people eat meat, and most werewolves don't have problems killing humans. They're prey.

How would you make Judge Doom in WtF? I'm thinking he is someone who was Claimed by a Magath, probably Humor and Sadism (It Claimed him because it thought puppeting him into violently killing people was funny, it can only act if the action in question would be considered funny, that's its Ban.)

Even vampires can feed responsibly, so whatever. If we all agree to not kill each other hunter can go and find a real job.

>But they are not actively evil unlike Pentex.
They CAN be. It's the Chronicles of Darkness, Cheiron exists to harvest supernaturals and use their body parts to make super soldiers. There's Blood Farms in the UK where vampires gather immigrants and continuously drain them of blood. There's no end of evil corporations if you want.

>its not even the eco terrorist angle which in of itself is fun but its more about me wanting a bit of direction. Like I sure if I actually played the game with a good DM I might like it more.
All direction requires is a big bad. You're just not limited to it being the Wyrm. Maybe the Mayor is Claimed, or there's an ancient spirit destined to be unleashed in the shadow that will wreck -everything-, or the hosts are in town (in the story in the 2e core they kill thousands through unleashing of diseases), or another werewolf pack that has made allies with all those baddies.

>It's absolutely true. Refusing the Hunt is unnatural for werewolves. The book makes this abundantly clear- hell, avoiding Siskur-Dah makes your Harmony go out of whack.
Actually a lot of ghost wolves resist the call to hunt, the sample GW did, it just brings you up to humanity 10 and you rage like a movie werewolf.

But I was saying that the sacred hunt isn't required to end in death and
>The vast majority do.
isn't a thing

>Actually a lot of ghost wolves resist the call to hunt, the sample GW did, it just brings you up to humanity 10 and you rage like a movie werewolf.
Right. It's unnatural and stresses you out. Which is exactly what I said. What are you arguing, exactly?

>isn't a thing
Wrong on all levels. There is absolutely a norm for hunts. The visceral violent bloodiness of it permeates every chapter and description of it. Whether it's the examples in the auspice pages or bits of dialogue in chapter fiction, you have to willfully ignore the text to conclude a majority of Hunts are not lethal affairs.

>Right. It's unnatural and stresses you out. Which is exactly what I said. What are you arguing, exactly?
That the sacred hunt, and hunting in general doesn't need to lead to death, which is what you said
here
>A werewolf who doesn't kill won't burst into flames or vanish in a puff of smoke, so in that sense they don't have to. But it gets under their skin.
and here
You're still denying your instincts in that case. Werewolves don't feel compelled to mindlessly kill; their spirits aren't soothed by a peaceful fishing trip that ends with sawing a catfish's head off.

>Resolution: The prey is brought down (a kill is not
necessary) or the pack breaks off the Siskur-Dah by taking any
significant actions towards ends other than the hunt.
there's the resolution for sacred hunt

killing is separate from the hunt

Regarding Forsaken, Death Rage is ass. Complete ass. Irredeemable ass. Apocalypse's Rage and frenzy system were vastly superior.

>That the sacred hunt, and hunting in general doesn't need to lead to death, which is what you said
The Hunt does not lead to death necessarily. Werewolves are still killers.

You really have to completely ignore the book to think the way you do, so I'm not sure how to talk to you about it. What do you think it means when the Cahalith howls about death? What do you think clamping the prey's neck between your teeth means? What do you think you do to Hosts and Claimed and all other sorts of beasts?

Ejaculating is separate from sex.

I am a newbie narrator who's going to run a mortals game.
Are there any resources for Cod / nWod 2nd ed narrators? Like a print friendly rules screen?

There are a couple ambiguities in the rules, I took a look on the archives but with no avail.
Page 70 of the core book: when to use resisted or contested action. Resisted if the number of successes counts.
On the the very same page the first common actions example seems to contradict it. 'Argument' is resisted, but you just need one success so you convince the target, further ones does not give you advantage of any sort.
(This is apart from exceptional success rules.)

>What do you think it means when the Cahalith howls about death? What do you think clamping the prey's neck between your teeth means? What do you think you do to Hosts and Claimed and all other sorts of beasts?
These werewolves have decided to hunt to the death.

And they're the norm.

>'Argument' is resisted
Doesn't the social maneuvering system later in the book (the whole "Doors" thing) care about how many successes you get? Either way, if it seems wrong to you, just change it—no one's gonna care if arguing with an NPC is now a contested roll.

Don't let yourself get bogged down in the mechanics. Thats a good lesson to learn as a Storyteller. You can always improvise a decent ruling on the spot when you've forgotten a specific rule—but improvising a compelling story on the spot when you haven't prepared for one is much harder.

care to refresh our memories with specifics?

it lets you stay in Gauru indefinitely. All bashing & lethal healed every turn. If you're not facing something significantly more powerful than a werewolf, and if the entire pack is in death rage together, it's pretty good for dealing with most things.

Actually, the shenanigans with Gauru being a temporary form for some idiotic reason are a major part of the problem.

So this film is WoD related yeah?
youtube.com/watch?v=6QK2T7I5uUA

You'll have to elaborate for me.

You can use the fathers form gift to stay in it outside of fights if you're the kind of fag who likes to use werewolf to do furry shit

otherwise it's because the werewolf is very scary and powerful and having garuo permanently would be ridiculous

How is it any more ridiculous than anything else about werewolves? Like, where the hell is the ridiculousness line drawn?

>How is it any more ridiculous than anything else about werewolves? Like, where the hell is the ridiculousness line drawn?
at the point where you can't go garou all the time

it's an pretty easy game to understand

the thing is that if you give in to death rage you get a full fifteen minutes of gauru at Primal Urge 1

more than enough to kill anything that moves.

That's not the point. The point is that I prefer all five forms being equally natural and equally a part of what you are, not just temporary enhancement in one form's case.

I also prefer the idea of three different breeds, instead of just one.

>he thing is that if you give in to death rage you get a full fifteen minutes of gauru at Primal Urge 1
10
>more than enough to kill anything that moves.
thats just it
on one hand, you kill baddie john, nowyou're raging for another 9 minutes and there's completely unrelated people to kill (uincluding wolfblooded, weres who drop out of rage early, random bystadners and cops)

on the other, john baddie dips into twilight and makes his escape
you've blacked out, you wake up in the miadst of distruction, but you don't remember john getting away and now he's plotting vengeance

>Don't let yourself get bogged down in the mechanics
I do not. But I would to understand the system before tinkering with it.

>social maneuvering system later in the book
It is explicity stated that you can open 1 door with every 1 roll, NOT with multiple successes.

If the basics rules does not seem to be coherent, it's pretty depressing. I don't to convert everythinf to FAE or GURPS.

Don't gotta tell me tovarisch. I like how death rage works in 2E.

The Gauru form IS a natural part of an Uratha's being. It's also the vessel through which their titanic capacity for murder & violence expresses itself. The temptation to surrender to death rage when in Gauru is huge, and the time limit before death rage is there to represent how long a werewolf's rational mind can hold out against their own lust for murder.

Breeds were kind of pointless imo. There's a story in Tribes of the Moon about a family of Uratha born from wolves so there's precedent if you wanted to do breeds in Forsaken anyway. But I'm not sure why you would.

I admit, I still hate that interpretation. Why must Gauru create the urge for uncontrolled violence? I see no reason for it, especially since Apocalypse handled the whole rage issue far better.

It's also not just lupus I'm interested in, but metis. Those born in the werewolf form.

Because raging death machine is a desired part of the game's theme. Any explanations for it are merely justification.

And yet, Apocalypse still did "raging death machine" better.

Sounds like you're more interested in playing WtA
Not really you just like it more

Subjective. No point arguing.

I would be, except that it seems fairly universally panned and I don't know anyone who'd enjoy playing it with me.

Forsaken's a good game, it's not WtA2, though. It's its own game and its systems fit within its setting, which is different.

Last thread someone asked if an AI could Awaken.
The answer is: Yes. But it'd be seriously difficult.
First, it'd need to have a proper mind, a real one.
Second, it'd have to be brought to the Wellspring in the Astral realms. Which is a tricky proposition for anyone without an Amnion.
Third, it must succeed in the challenges of that place.
Fourth, it must be lucky.

But we have precedents, a Goetic being managed to Awaken through this method, and eventually ascended.

Of course there are. Why shouldn't there?

The wellspring? What's that and what book is it in? I'm super interested in the astral realms but i wasn't interested in mage until the second edition came out.

The social maneuvering system is totally optional, and I've never played with anyone who used it, so I can't speak much to that.

As far as any old rolls go, though: the math is gonna work out so that a Contested roll and a Resisted roll, statistically speaking, aren't that different. If it feels like it should be a Contested action to you, then decide that it's a Contested action. That's what you do as the Storyteller.

Calling the basic rules "incoherent" is a pretty big overstatement.

lots
here's one from czech republic

The Wellspring is in the Astral Realms book.
It is the realm of... either sapience or evolution. Possibly both.
It's the fountain of youth, and the fountain of wisdom, all in one. Complete with being completely ass to reach.

I'm assuming it's deep in the Anima Mundi?

The sample Ghost Wolf is someone who's been avoiding the Hunt and can't take it anymore and is about to Hunt someone he feels is worth killing. Not Hunting is bad for you. Even the Ghost Wolves feel the pull of Urum Da Takas.

You two are talking about two different things.

It is literally the curse of an insane moon goddess made manifest in the flesh of the ultimate hunter beast. You should not be able to sit around eating pizza and watching television like you could with Glabbro.
More than that, being able to use the WAR FORM outside of war and violence is strongly against many of the themes and tone of Werewolf 2e.
Just because all forms are equally useful doesn't mean all forms are equally viable at all times. Also, I'll agree that Forsaken needs a Lupus, but everything about Metis was fucking stupid.

As an aside, I'd like to hear why you think Apocalypse handles Glabbro better than Forsaken handles Gauru, duration restrictions aside. How did Apocalypse do "raging death machine" better?

>Breeds were kind of pointless imo. There's a story in Tribes of the Moon about a family of Uratha born from wolves so there's precedent if you wanted to do breeds in Forsaken anyway. But I'm not sure why you would.
I hate Apocalypse, but I really love the idea of being an animal that becomes human and learns to socialize from that. I had a character that I really want to do in Forsaken, based on an idea I had for an Apocalypse game. A lupus cahalith whose way of storytelling is stuff like game and graphic design. But that only works in a world where Lupus are a thing, not "oh god so special one of a kind". I just love the idea of a teenage girl who was raised as a wolf-dog pet and is ecstatic that she's got fucking HANDS and colour vision and can talk.

>it seems fairly universally panned
No it's not.

>But we have precedents, a Goetic being managed to Awaken through this method, and eventually ascended.
Who?

What do you have trouble with, re: coherency?

>But that only works in a world where Lupus are a thing, not "oh god so special one of a kind"

You could just have the setting include lupus Uratha, either regionally or globally, it's not that hard in nWoD, especially since there's "canon precedent"(not like it matters).

I'm not sure why that character idea wouldn't work in baseline Forsaken, though? It'd be weird but I wouldn't imagine a pack would be terribly upset at taking in a dog girl.

I'm going to assume that when you said "Glabbro" you meant Crinos, as Glabro is the near-man form. And the reason is that Crinos is more than the war-form, it's the form of perfect fusion. Why do you think there are some words in the Garou language that can only be spoken in Crinos?

As for handling better: Rage in Apocalypse isn't a curse, it's a boon with caveats. It's something whose effects can be mitigated by Gnosis and Willpower, and it's a source of power that you can tap into at will, albeit with the risk of falling into frenzy. There's no ticking clock and everything feels like it's more within the player's control.

Also, I'm pretty sure complete colorblindness is a myth.

>I'm not sure why that character idea wouldn't work in baseline Forsaken, though? It'd be weird but I wouldn't imagine a pack would be terribly upset at taking in a dog girl.
It's the fishmalk problem
>alright, we're going after this spirit, so you go left, hanna you get the gun
>durrr what is gun?
>fine, i'll take the gun, hanna you use the elevator
>durrr what is elevator?
>stairs?
>durrr what is stairs?
>could you stop humping my leg?
>can't! in heat!

Apocalypse explained this. Newly Changed lupus have extremely plastic brains and learn things at an accelerated rate, so giving them crash courses in the things they need to know doesn't take too long.

Rage isn't really a curse in WtF either, thats just myth that the forsaken believe like the pure believe silver is a curse from moon
it helps them from breaking their cover

>hanna can you get that fork for me?
>durrr, what fork?
>its...the metal thing with points on it we use to eat
>Ahahah, of course dear packmate, in fact I've devised a much better implement for delivering foods from the plate to the destination of mastication, it's even made of a new alloy of my own devising
Apocalypse handwaved it, you mean

I wouldn't say Apocalypse handles it "better," just differently.
Utilizing one's rage is a good thing in Apocalypse but in Forsaken the rage IS a curse.
it's an inheritance from thei Uratha's spiritual ancestor, something that isolates them from humanity and threatens to tear apart everything they care about. Gauged by that metric it's fine.

As someone said earlier, they're two different games.
it's totally a curse. A curse that helps you kill things, but those things often tend to be "loved ones" and "innocent bystanders."

Oh yes. On the borders to the Sidereal Wastes.

>Who?
She has no name, just the Queen of the Colony.

It wouldn't work because it's the kind of thing that requires ST permission. I mean, it's possible I could get that, but my general way of looking at things is that if they alter the setting in a way that would require ST permission, it's best to assume I'm the only ST who would give myself permission.

Crinos, yes. In fact, that's actually a good point, though: How is Glabro useful if you have no limitations on the "This, But Better" form? That Rage is a curse is a major important part of the setting in Forsaken. In Apocalypse, it's... nothing, really. It's just a name for their power stat. It doesn't have that sense of putting things on the line.
>Colourblindness
Complete, sure, but they're still red-green colourblind.

Actually the character concept was that Abby is someone who's incredibly enthralled with technology. She was a Glasswalker in Apocalypse and would be an Iron Master in Forsaken. Adapt or Die. Again, she was someone who uses digital medium to do Galliard/Cahalith things. The whole point is that she saw other people using all this technology stuff like can openers and televisions and now that she's 'human' she wants to do that as well.
Don't be dumb. "Learns new things fast" isn't the same as "is a genius".

Yea Apocalypse and Forsaken are such incredibly different games in terms of tone and the way they handle the their themes. Being A Werewolf is basically the only thing they have in common.

If you really want to play Apocalypse just play Apocalypse. Or get the Translation Guide and convert the stuff from Apocalypse you like to Forsaken. But saying "Apocalypse did X better than Forsaken" (or vice-versa) is stupid, because they're not TRYING to do the same things.