/tgesg/ - Weekend Elder Scrolls Lore General

Can't say I really mind, the games should be as big as possible while still having enough detail.

Arena and daggerfall were mostly randomly generated, morrowind had a good scale, oblivion was horribly underscaled, skyrim was just slightly underscaled

I do like maps

>UK is Hammerfell
Every fucking time.

No, I mean with the image I posted, with Tamriel being the size of Europe.

That's not small in any way

It's small from an irl perspective

No, in Tamriel people from Morrowind know about Alinor and its people, and there's an Empire capable of ruling the entire continent. In the real world China or Japan were seen as fairy tales (more or less like Akavir) and the Roman Empire struggled to mantain order in its territory, more or less like Tamriel's Empire.

Hell, we didn't even realize we had discovered America for many years, thinking it was India.

>No, in Tamriel people from Morrowind know about Alinor and its people, and there's an Empire capable of ruling the entire continent. In the real world China or Japan were seen as fairy tales (more or less like Akavir) and the Roman Empire struggled to mantain order in its territory, more or less like Tamriel's Empire
And this isn't what makes the Empire so interesting in the first place? It's like the entire known world fell under the control of a single monarch. It also makes Septim's and Reman's conquests way more impressive.
You really want me to believe that a place the size of Europe somehow managed to allow for races to remain completely segregated from each other for millenia?

People seem to forget that even Daggerfall had a timescale.

I honestly don't really care exactly how big Tamriel is. It's kind of weird, because I feel like I should care, but I don't.
Never found the question to be very interesting.

>implying Bethesda has the balls to do Black Marsh

This.
They'll just continue to do human provinces indefinitely.

>races to remain completely segregated from each other for millenia
First, this isn't true at all (Chimer, Dwemer, Aldmer, Nedes...) Second, the the more reclused races are adapted to their provinces (Argonian and Khajiit) And third, genetics work differently in Tamriel.

They'll butcher the lore of Elsweyr with cat jokes and meme sugar at some point.

I like this map because Daggerfall is where it was in Daggerfall.

We don't even know if there's actual genetics as we consider them. It sounds crazy, but when just about everything is explained using magic and being made up of ancient spirits, why wouldn't all the races be just magically created without DNA and stuff too?

What's living on these red isles? Are they explored yet?
And wtf is pyandonea,this is literally the first time I see it on any TES map

The red isles are Yokuda, the ancient homeland of the Redguards that is now lost. It's on maps in the lore, but it's probably from another kalpa and doesn't actually exist in this one.

Pyandonea is the land of the Maormer, the Sea Elves. It's not exactly supported in the lore outside of ESO and a small landmass seen below Tamriel on a globe in Daggerfall.

How can Yokunda be from other Kalpa if Redguards are not?

>First, this isn't true at all (Chimer, Dwemer, Aldmer, Nedes...) Second
For the most part, it is definitely true. Just because Chimer and Dwemer inhabit the same modern region does not mean they lived together, it's made pretty clear that they both had their own completely distinct realms.
I mean fuck, Tamriel's so fucking big that its Elven settlers not only developed their own cultures, but became their own distinct races.
>Second, the the more reclused races are adapted to their provinces (Argonian and Khajiit)
Yes because a desert the size of fucking bulgaria is clearly impenetrable.
Tamriel does not work at this tiny scale.

But they are - they simply Made Way. They used their sword magic to cut their way into the next kalpa.

So Bethesda literally took random anime,painted every character black and made this Redguard origin story? This is kinda cool.
Too cool not to be retconned in the next game

Redguards are pretty much Persian Samurai. Too bad they don't really match with my playstyle. Might do one in Oblivion once I get through Daggrerfall and Morrowind. No curved swords though.

That's what I meant with geneticts

this is weird. We don't even know where did gravity came from

why even look forward to it, Bethesda's never gonna make a great TES game again.

>Peryite's Foundation is the Falling Rock

Is Pyandonea really that big? I always thought it was simply a small Island, but here it has similiar size to Summerset Isles.

Well, a large enough number of people live there to have seriously challenged the Altmer several times, so I'd say it's plausible.

I imagined them living in the Waterworld-style settlements.

>It's not exactly supported in the lore outside of ESO and a small landmass seen below Tamriel on a globe in Daggerfall
>what is PGE1
>what is PGE3
Pyandonea has never even been given an actual shape, really. That map depicts a fanon version of Pyandonea that people not just seem to assume is canon.
pic related is the Daggerfall map, that landmass below Sumurset is supposedly Pyandonea.
Doesn't even look like the general image thrown around, really.

And then there is this map which presents Pyandonea at a much smaller scale (which I kind of prefer really).

But it makes Yokunda huge, which is definitely against the lore as we know it.

And why is it that some people make Akavir tiny, and other people make it an entire continent?

>But it makes Yokunda huge, which is definitely against the lore as we know it.
Look at the map again. Yokuda is presented at its correct size, just with the sunken portions also shown.
>And why is it that some people make Akavir tiny, and other people make it an entire continent?
Because we have not been presented jack shit on what the continents actually are.
The image I posted here is really the closest thing we have to an 'official' scale-map (it was created by LadyN based on discussions she had with Kirkbride).

But how do know that any of it remains? For all we know, the islands depicted on the maps were all there was of Yokuda. Remember, as far as we can tell, last kalpa seemed to be more of a water world - it's not too strange to think that the Redguards might have only had a few islands, that all together are a fair size.

iirc redguard has sailors visiting the remains of Yokuda

According to NPCs in Anvil, ships still go to what's left of Yokuda.

You mean the story detailed here?

imperial-library.info/content/lord-vivecs-sword-meeting-cyrus-restless

Because even though that's really all we have to go off of with what Yokuda is like, even at the very beginning the teller of the story admits it might not be a true story at all.

I got you covered famalampaitachi

There's also this map.

He's talking about the game, I think.

What would have to happen for maormer to become a playable race?

Maormer aren't canon

But they are. For like a while now.

But the Redguards are from the last kalpa, right? So why can their homeland still exist in this one?

It's sort of like how the Altmer still look for Aldmeris, despite us knowing that it can't still exist because it's a lingering memory of before they were mortal, physical things.

Maormer aren't canon and neither are ESO.

You came to the wrong thread if you believe it is, friend.

Nothing is canon, user. It's all in your mind.

Are you serious? Maormer have been in the canon since long before ESO you retard.

NEVER SHOULD'VE COME HERE

>he thinks that eso came up with them
They've existed since morrowind

Your face is canon!

Since Redguard, actually.
And Orgnum since Arena

So this fat tub of love was hanging out with all around badass Divath Fyr who took his own flesh to make a bunch of lady clones. Couldn't Divath have used the same process to make Dwarf clones and save an entire race.

>Nir became pregnant, but before she gave birth, Padomay returned, professing his love for Nir. She told him that she loved only Anu, and Padomay beat her in rage. Anu returned, fought Padomay, and cast him outside Time. Nir gave birth to Creation, but died from her injuries soon after. Anu, grieving, hid himself in the sun and slept.
>Meanwhile, life sprang up on the twelve worlds of creation and flourished. After many ages, Padomay was able to return to Time. He saw Creation and hated it. He swung his sword, shattering the twelve worlds in their alignment. Anu awoke, and fought Padomay again. The long and furious battle ended with Anu the victor. He cast aside the body of his brother, who he believed was dead, and attempted to save Creation by forming the remnants of the 12 worlds into one -- Nirn, the world of Tamriel. As he was doing so, Padomay struck him through the chest with one last blow. Anu grappled with his brother and pulled them both outside of Time forever.

Why are we supposed to support Padomaic races over Anuic races again? Padomay himself just sounds like a dick.

Without growing up with dwemer culture wouldn't they just be pre curse velothi?

It was probably long and arduous process, and the genetic similarity would lead to inbreeding and issues from there, making the effort not worth it.
Besides, even if they existed physically, the knowledge and culture are long dead, which might be for the best.

>implying it wouldnt just create a bunch of corprus monstrosities

>implying divath wouldn't "cure" his corpus after "curing" the Nerevar

>implying you don't know that the cure only works on the Nerevarine

If it's anything like real cloning, there wouldn't be a female to put the dwemer babies in because there aren't any dwemer females left.

If it's just magical cloning, probably because corpus was messing with shit. Or maybe Yagrum didn't want clone kids - his whole race was dead, better to let it all pass on than attempt to bring new dwemer into the world that would know nothing of the old ways.

Alduin was not the world eater.

>Many scholars of Alduin state that he is the ender of kalpas and destroyer of worlds, but I would like to examine how this might not be the case.
>Perhaps Alduin was not the World Eater, but instead one who would one day become the World Eater, just as the Nereverine was not the Nereverine, but became him.
>Contemporary theory suggests that Alduin is an aspect of Akatosh which devours creation at the end of time.
>This raises the status of Alduin not only above dragons and mortals, but over the aedric and daedric deities themselves.
>This status seems inflated.

My thesis is supported by the status and behavior of Alduin and the claims made about him.
>Firstly, Alduin is stated to come from Akatosh, the king and ruler of Mundus. The problem with this lies in the fact that Akatosh rules by nature, not devours. The destructive nature is manifested in Mehrunes Dagon, not Akatosh. >Similarly, Alduin and his dragons do not devour when they enter the scene. Instead, they perch in high places and rule, just as they had during the times of the dragon cult.
>This business of devouring the world goes against the dragon's Akatoshian nature.

Diddn't the Argonians conquer a chunk of Morrowind?
Start their and you can slowly make your way into the horror swap

In order to unravel this mystery, one must explore the events surrounding Alduin's return and answer two predominant questions:
>1. If Alduin's purpose was to eat the world, why didn't he? If his purpose was to not eat the world, what was his motive?
>2. If Akatosh wanted the world to end, why bless the Last Dragonborn? If he did not want the world to end, why did he create Alduin? What is Akatosh's motive?

Aduin's Motive: To Ascend via the Walking Ways

It is my belief that Alduin was created in order to rule and preserve Mundus. This role is parallel to that of the stones in the Towers of Tamriel, suggesting that Alduin himself was the stone of Snow Throat. The relationship between stone and king has always been close, and the cataclysm that results in a stone's shattering is always due to a king's loss of control over the stone, followed by a violent retrieval of it. This was manifested in Daggerfall when the underking lost the Mantella, and retrieved it shortly before it's destruction. It was manifested again when Nerevar lost control of the heart of Lorkhan, only to reclaim it through his incarnation shortly before it's sundering. The king, Martin Septim, demonstrated this again, when he lost the Amulet of Kings and reclaimed it shortly before he destroyed it. These prior examples illustrate and insinuate that Alduin was both the king and the stone, who lost himself in the time wound, only to return and reclaim himself before destroying himself ultimately. This was the first walking way.

I don't fully understand what I'm sharing with you, but look at this.

imperial-library.info/content/etada-eight-aedra-eat-dreamer

An essential thing to take away is that Akatosh is fragmented, and is deathly afraid of his opposite.

When Alduin ruled in ancient times, he was confronted by Tongues who had created a forbidden Thuum. This Thuum contained within it the hatred in the hearts of mortals, and made its hearer accept mortality. This was especially violent for the immortal dragons. It is important to examine the nature of this "Dragonrend" however. Like all Thuum, Dragonrend was a type of tonal magic that stems from the heart and self of the shouter. Due to the Lorkhanic nature of the Tongues and their Lorkhanic hearts, combined with the exceedingly Lorkhanic nature of the Dragonrend Thuum (which insists mortality upon the immortal, and which shouts "NO!" at the existence which the immortals placed on the mortals), these tongues recreated the affects of Numiduim upon Alduin during that climactic fight at the throat of the world. This was the second walking way.

The third, and perhaps most important dynamic occurred during the same battle. When Dragonrend proved to be insufficient, the ancient Tongues used an elder Scroll to send Alduin forward in time. This was not an attempt to dump Alduin into the lap of a future generation, but a method used to unmake Alduin himself. Alduin was, by his core nature, a ruler of time. By sending him forward in time without consent, the Tongues forced Alduin to contradict his own nature. This endeavor should have caused Alduin to zero-sum, just as many had when they faced the contradiction of existing within a dream. When faced with such a contradiction, the only way to overcome is through force of will, declaring "I AM" in the face of the contradiction. The fact that Alduin even survived the Time Wound suggests that Alduin was able to achieve CHIM. It is also possible that Alduin used CHIM when he resurrected the other dragons with his Thuum, just as Talos used CHIM through Thuum for his Red Legions in Cyrodil. This was the third walking way.

The fourth way involves the very controversial enantiomorph. Scholars today have a difficult time studying this concept, seeing an enantiomorph in every conflict. It is perhaps important to note here that a proper enantiomorph involves the hopeful ascendant to play the role of Witness, King, and Rebel. While enantiomorphs exist in Tamrielic history, only those who play all three roles reach ascendance (such as Tiber through TALOS and Vivec though ALMSIVI). Alduin played the role of witness at Helgen. Being wounded by the Dragonrend and Time Wound, Alduin witnessed the king dragonborn about to be dismembered by the rebel Empire. Alduin also played the role of King during the ancient battle at the throat of the world. This is why Alduin did not kill the Dragonborn at Helgen or at Kynesgrove, he needed TLDB to use the elder scroll to view the ancient battle (and thereby being temporarily blinded) while he played the role of the witness. Alduin then tried to play the role of the Rebel at the Throat of the world against TLDB and the witnessing Parthanax. This was the fourth walking way.

After the encounter at the throat, Alduin entered Sovengarde to devour the souls of the dead. This was not a way for him to regain lost power, but rather the fifth walking way: soul stacking. Talos was created by soul stacking three Shezarrs through violence, and ALMSIVI was a similar stacking of three souls touched by the heart of Lorkhan (again, through violence). In order to walk like them, Alduin had to devour and absorb the Souls of Shor, found in his followers in Sovengarde. By consuming these souls, we see Alduin walking the fifth way, while also finally changing his nature to the Eater which is his namesake.

>the clones of divayth are female
>I wonder if it's possible to make female clones...

Akatosh's Motive: To Absorb Alduin like he did Martin Septim, and expand his influence over Mundus as he did on Nirn.

Like Alduin, Martin Septim also found himself walking several of the ways (perhaps I will discuss this at a later time). At the climax of the Oblivion Crisis, Martin Septim, a Dragonborn, shattered the Amulet of Kings. The Amulet of Kings was a stone containing Akatosh's blood inside a gem that was made of Lorkhan's dried blood. Akatosh's blood inside of Lorkhan's blood, smashed by a mortal dragonborn, alongside numerous dead dragonborn souls which were also housed within. The climax of the Alduin crisis ended the exact same way. Alduin, the aspect of Akatosh was housed inside Sovengarde, the realm of Lorkhan. Then the Last Dragonborn crushed him, alongside numerous dead dragonborn souls which were also housed within.

Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim had literally the same map scale you fucking retard.

Alduin was present in at least the previous kalpa. He in fact inflicted the aspect of destruction onto Mehrunes Dagon in this kalpa for trying to hide bits of creation that alduin was trying to eat in the last. While I like the theory that the Alduin in skyrim was something of a larval form of the actual World Eater, his eventual double apotheosis would probably not involve Dagon.

Additionally, Alduin or the World Eater is the other aspect of Akatosh, who possesses duel nature of maintainer and destroyer.

...

For all the things people hate Skyrim for, they did the geography beautifully.
The frozen marshes, the rocky cliffs to the west, the autumn leaves and aspens of The Reach, the Icelandic hotsprings to the east, the southern steppes, and finally the frozen north.

Much better than Oblivion's geography, or the previous description which were "It's all snow and mountains.". I'd say Skyrim's tied with Morrowind in that regard.

I really like that theory, although I doubt all these coincidences were intentional on Bethesda's part.

Maormer were in lore before ESO

I can agree with that. The rocky cliff roads, huge untouched forests, and waterfalls/streams were beautiful. Honestly, the single thing I remember most about Skyrim was seeing the waterfall near what I vaugly remember as being Cradlecrush Rock.

Maromer have been a thing since Reguard lad.

I honestly love the forests of Falkreath and the plains of Windhelm. I even have some fondness for Morthal's swamps, and Solitude's mountains. If the entire game was like Dawnstar and Winterhold, I think it would be really disappointing.

However, I don't think Oblivion's geography was too bad. You had a pair of mountain ranges, a few different kinds of forests, and even a tropical swamp area. Oblivion's problem comes from the fact that overall it feels empty - not as many fallen trees or treestumps, no real variety in the dirt. The towns were ten times better than anything else it brought to the table. But it at least feels a bit bigger than Skyrim, and it doesn't feel like all the dungeons and caves are right next to each other - even if half of them were just grey, boring dungeons.

>Skyrim was smaller than Oblivion
Really?
Guess I'm no used to oblivion it doesn't seem big anymore

Too bad it has the worst most boring dungeons in the series by quite a large margin, which is where you'll easily spend at least 50% of your playtime.
Same problem everyone bitched about back with Fallout 3 even thought it was nowhere near as bad there. All the well crafted environments in the world don't really matter when you're just going to end up running past it to go wander around in a virtually indistinguishable series of motherfucking metro tunnels or Draugr ruins.

Except now everything has been dumbed down to a linear hallway. Blasting any sense of exploration in the knees, reducing the thought to process to zero, and driving the ennui to an unprecedented level.

I only really notice it when I look at a map with dungeons and other locations on it - a lot more is squeezed together than in Oblivion.

Like, look at this section of the Oblivion map...

...and then this Skyrim map section. Notice how much closer all the dungeons are? It might just be a difference in zoom, but I tried to make it about equal.

We must either be talking about different games, or your absolute rage has clouded your view and turned everything into some sick twisted parody of itself.

You're embarrasing yourself, and it's even more pathetic because you're acting like /tgesg/'s voice

I had more fun getting lost for hours in Daggerfall's randomly generated mess and shitty mouse spazing combat. I had more fun looking at Morrowind's brown textures. I even had more fun with Oblivion.
Skyrim's linear dungeons and 3 whole puzzles made me want to just lie down and die.

It is sad when one of the most complex puzzles that I remember in Skyrim is 'using a shout to quickly run past stones.' Otherwise it's matching images in the right order.

Oblivion honestly didn't have any good puzzles though. The only interesting thing I remember is one dungeon with two silver arrows that you had to fire at a pair of jewels to open some doors.

To be honest puzzles are shit and have no business in ttrpgs or videogames. They are binary, you either get it or you don't. If they are difficult they are impassable roadblocks and you end up googleing the solution. If they are easy they are just pointless wastes of time.

There was a puzzle in the mages guild quest line where you had to decipher some ayleid panels using an incomplete reference text in order to figure out which spells to cast on a door to make it open. Can't think of any others myself though

Morrowind had the worst dungeons in the series tbqh