Warcraft Lore and RPG Discussion

give the PCs a personal vendetta worth fighting him over

He stole one player's girlfriend, and one other player just wants to punch him. Boom.

a better idea would be this.
Make Onyxia or Nefarian chafe under DW's command, and then turn tail against DW. They help your party and eventually die. Turn DW into a mad mastermind instead of a meme

Its interesting how many people consider the DH to be evil.

They're morale as fuck. They made massive sacrifices for the sake of defending the world, and anyone who goes in it for power either doesnt last long, or is killed off once they go and betray.

Putting them on a level similar to warlocks, and how many good warlocks do you know?

I agree with the Sargeri being interesting, but I preferred when Arrokka were hunched raven people by default and not cursed urbermensch.

Warlocks do it for the sake of gaining power for the sake of having power.

DH do it for the sake of gaining power so they can defend the world.

Warlocks do things strictly for themselves
DH do things mostly for others

A more apt comparison would probably be death knights.

They're both rather shifty but the majority are still there to help, no matter how unscruplous their methods or where they draw power from.

Death Knights are generally unwilling until after their transformation though, which would probably be the biggest difference.

I really, really like Khadgar and his mage memes.

Iceblock, blink, arcane minions, being a smartass.

t. fanboy mage

Plenty

All demon hunters for one thing. Fluff-wise there's leittle difference, and in-game demon hunter really should just be a melee DPS spec for warlocks

I'm going to be running a Warcraft 5e campaign for my friends, and I need some ideas for quests.

Starting area will be Booty Bay, and the timeline will be a mix of Vanilla WoW and Cataclysm. Gilneas has fallen to Scourge instead of Forsaken and Worgen are a thing, Blood Elves are a thing, Lich King is still alive, Deathwing hasn't returned yet.

Look at in-game quests from vanilla

Also, consider running in-game dungeons as actual dungeons, Shadowfang Keep would be really interesting.

Also consider not using 5e

OP is back

Because the two experienced players wanted the new edition. They watch acquisituons inc and one other who run 5e and they want to play it.

Me? I don't care. As long as i have some basic rules to get the story along and I can add intrigue and the little details that made me love wow, ill be happy.

Different guy but, i was planning on starting small with the kobold caves, building to defenss of westfall and defias bugging them the whole way, eventually geting them into deadmines. I want the progression through eastern kingdoms to be slow up to the plaguelands, and helping the blood elves who are going to be justifiably offput by them being there.

Also, why not 5th? Is 4e truly better for representing the classes and combat?

My advice is to ignore any content added post Wrath that isn't part of your weird headcannon.

Every bit of fluff since then has been exclusively awful, and most of the gameplay too.

I would just suggest not using DnD

A friend of mine is working on an Anima conversion, which is a bit weird, but I think has merit. Meanwhile, while it's a Japanese game that's not fully translated, the Log Horizon TRPG is made to run MMO-themed games, and if you want it to feel anything like Warcraft, rather than a DnD game set in Azeroth, that's a big help

I would somewhat disagree on that

While MoP's talent changes were shit, the monk class is actually a load of fun to play as unless you're healing with it, in which case it feels like you're herding cats, and the cats are made of mist.

And on a lore front, while things like everything Garrosh has done, everything Sylvanas has done and fucking Thermaplugg still not being dead for some reason are problems, at least Wrathion was kind of interesting, and even though the events that lead up to it were utter shit, everything in the Seige of Orgrimmar outside of the actual conlcusion was rather well done

No joke, I constantly forget that monks even exist.

The only time I ever notice them is when some guy in my LFG dungeon rolls for no particular reason.

That's weird, Brewmasters may not be the best tanks in WoD, but they're certainly the most fun to play as

5e converts to Warcraft really well, though.

How? It's a vancian magic system with standard "just basic attack" martials. That's about as far from Warcraft as you can get while still being a class-based system in a generic fantasy setting

That and about zero ability for martials to actually make themselves a tempting target rather than beating on the squishies.

If it needs to be d&d, 4th would be the only one I would consider even passable.

The threat system is why Log Horizon is so fucking good at running MMO-themed games

Quick, someone name 1 bit of lore that hasn't been shit on by WoW yet

Everything Rexxar did

I'm speaking from the experience of playing a Warcraft 5e conversion and being a fan of the series. In my opinion and from my experience, it worked well.

Did it work well because it worked like a Warcraft game, or because you were playing a system you already liked with friends?

I'm not saying don't use 5e at all, it's not a bad game by any means, it just doesn't fit with Warcraft.

Kul Tiras.

>Everyone asks Rexxar to come back and save the Horde
>Rexxar says "fuck off, I'm happy in the wild"

It felt very Warcraft to me. In my experience, it fit well. At no point was I like "this isn't really Warcraft!"

The problem with Deathwing is that he should have been a smarter and more political opponent. He's a shapeshifter who was able to perform subtle mindcontrol. Manipulating mortals was one of his things.

Unfortunately, Blizzard doesn't know how to understand feedback. People thought Illidan didn't show up enough, so they made Arthas show up everywhere saying "I'll get you next time". People complained that made Arthas look like some cartoon villain, so they corrected by never having Deathwing actually interact with anyone.
Arakkoa were always said to be "once beautiful" in TBC.

>Arakkoa were always said to be "once beautiful" in TBC.

I guess, but i feel like it was more convoluded than it needed to be. What's wrong with a simple "god damn, demons everywhere really fucked our shit, just like it did to broken and lost draenei."

Where the fuck IS he anyway in WoD?
Or the Mok'Nathal for that matter? Shouldn't there be a shitload around?

Im not well versed with 5th, but the link I posted in Op basically has a redone players handbook with all warcraft races, classes, and professions. It seems pretty complete and from what ive seen pretty sweet.

Im going to probably base most my stuff on that.

Again, im not looking to replicate wow in tabletop, im looking to take most of its story, change details where they make sense, and have a mechanic thats similar to classes, bit still very much dnd.

Like i said two pkayers have no experience with wow, so they're at the table for story and loot. Third player has experience witb wow, but im sure can suspend some mechamics for lore/new game type.

So i know the wow timeline is roughly 1 year per expansion, but im starting vanilla, and want to do mostly the story of the alliance building up strength, the kidnapping of varian towards the middle taking them to theramore, and concluding with the best vanillla quest line tuning for onyxia. I plan on having the nobles be snotty, obnoxious and give them a reason to see where the defias and others came from. I also wanted to pre knyxia and mc to have them assault warsong gulch and help the night elves as part of a huge regiment traveling there.

But that all depends on the players. The two experienced players are wxcellent at sidetracking and ditching plot points. Hell id be surprised if they didnt try to join the illidari if we get that far.

>Where the fuck IS he anyway in WoD?
sitting on the side of a hill in Gorgrond. He helps Alliance players with two quests

That's for the best honestly.

Better he keeps hidden, tucked away from the prying eyes of godawful game designers and writers.

Ok, I see that you and I would want very, very different things out of a Warcraft TRPG

You could probably play the official WoW TRPG. It's 3.5, and is a similar sort of conversion as the one linked in the OP. I couldn't, it's sort important to me that it feels sort of MMO-ish, with non-vancian magic, special powers for warriors and tank/healer/dps roles.

Although really, the only important one there is non-vancian magic. Warcraft magic is explicitly non-vancian, and it sort of bothers me to see vancian magic used in settings where the magic explicitly does not work like that.

Wgile i agree on spellcasting, every other bit about class specifics seems built i to that link. Warriors get their shouts, though taunt is later on. Shamans get elementals to help them, can change their damage type. Its eems pretty fun.

If theres input to change spells, im open. I always stand by fun trumps rules, and level 1-like 3 wizards arent fun. Maybe less damaging spells, or much more uses of 0 and 1st level spells?

But that's the core problem, there is no fixing it without removing magic, 5e, much like 3.5, is built on the backbone of Vancian casting, that's why you're so much better off using a different system

I liked the way the dragonflights were portrayed earlier, largely keeping to themselves and tending to their respective tasks, with the Aspects themselves being elusive demigods.

Although that also has a lot to do with storytelling in vanilla and TBC being far less in-your-face.

Yeah, Vanilla and TBC did a pretty good job with the Dragonflights. It wasn't til Wrath that they suddenly became major characters in the overall story.

Well I guess Kalecgos was important in TBC, but he kind of had to be due to his role in the comic.

Yeah but Kalecgos wasn't dangled in front of the players for the entire Quel'danas quest line. His appearance was wholly contained in the raid.

>Warcraft Lore and RPG Discussion: Actual rules discussion edition
>thread is nothing but lore once again

That's because unfortunately, Warcraft does not have its own RPG system. It has a shitty OGL RPG, and a bunch of adaptations for other games, but nothing that is actually a warcraft specific system. So there aren't really any real rules to discuss

Ive been tryin man. I actually wanted help lol.

Have you played fate? Im considering that as its a lot nore flexible with, well, everything. Its much more story focused, which id love. The chunks of good better best skills, everyone is the same level, etc.

I like it, of course my two players would have none of it. Magic would be easier, shaman abilities are nothing to deal with, and there'd be danger every time they ran into a pack of gnolls, not just faceroll when 5 levels above.

my biggest problem with dragons is their bullshit "we can't intervene in mortal affairs but oh fuck this other dragon is crazy go get him mortals" plotline that shows up multiple times in every single content pack from vanilla to Cataclysm

Then why not play the original tabletop WoW: DnD 4th edition?

I've been arguing against that label for years but ultimately I have to admit there IS no tabletop RPG that does MMO combat better. 4e has at least one class to cover each warcraft class, and everyone gets cool powers and is equally useful in a group combat situation. I guess it doesn't have mana points but you could refluff your at-will spells as a wand and suddenly you have mages who are capable of running out of juice.

Alright then. Would you have a Shaman's power based on Charisma, since their power is based on negotiating with the spirits?

The problem with dragons is that their function in the lore is to be aloof guardians of nature who generally benign or uninterested in the lower races, but that's really boring and the proper function of dragons in a game world is to be raid bosses, so the writers have to keep contriving to send them insane again and again.

>Charisma, since their power is based on negotiating with the spirits?
>Wisdom, since their power is based on intuition of spirit world
>Constitution, since their power is based on channeling volatile elemental powers
>Intelligence, since they're leaders and advisors
>Strength, since they're hand-to-hand combatants

Ability scores are completely vestigial in dnd, just pick one or two for you class and go with it. All that matters is that you stick with that choice and don't force people to spread their stats around.

I disagree with planning too far in advance, though you may know your players better than I do. The best part of a WoW rpg is that it can easily be very open world, as the whole world is already built.

I also second running the in-game dungeons as actual dungeons because that's just really fun.

In the game I played, slightly reflavoring 5e bard felt more shamanish than building a druid that couldn't shapeshift, so I'd personally say yeah

In 3.5, their spellcasting power is based on charisma but spells known/per day are based on wisdom, I think.
However, that's pretty dumb since it forces you to split your stat allocation pretty harshly if you want to be able to cast your way out of a wet paper bag.

However, you could ask the same question of the Diplomacy skill- incredible wisdom should be able to sway an opinion even if they aren't the most charming person in the room.

I'd like to think a good shaman is charismatic or wise, but the best shaman is both. Maybe have it be a choice at character creation with shaman and priest, because we know that Scarlets sure aren't wise, but they can pump out that holy fire with their sense of self, i.e. CHA.

>Maybe have it be a choice at character creation with shaman and priest, because we know that Scarlets sure aren't wise, but they can pump out that holy fire with their sense of self, i.e. CHA.
Well, I guess that makes sense. The lore often fluffs the power of the Light/Shadow as coming from the self and force of one's personality/emotions as well as strength of will, so I guess both actually work for it.

Maybe Charisma would pump out more pure power while Wisdom would have better control and use it more effectively.

Yeah with my players its leave breadcrumbs, some obvious stuff, try to move them here, then bam! They're on another boat trying to kill an inncoent book merchant because his robe was black.

As for dungones, i like them as I can easily put those to table, and the mechanics are easily added to the game. The story build up to each one in vanilla was great.

For the open world, i was considering having them in a guild, or forming one, and it gets assignments from the crown about what needs help. They dont have to go, they are after all murderhobos, but theres good money if they do. Sure the world will be open, but if they read up lore and want to explore ubrs for no reason, theres going to be som railroading.

What system should one use to play a Warcraft game in?

inb4 4E

I would honestly take a crack at it with Mutants & Masterminds. It can work for high fantasy, warriors would be highly competent, and you can string up pretty much any powers you could think of.

>inb4 4E
You can't inb4 something that's been mentioned several times in this very thread, you dingus.

It's insane to think people would play a Warcraft game in anything but 4e.

make sure the start of their game is trying to finish getting 10 signatures to form their guild

with random whispers

Why not just a custom system?

Bump for this

Ok, custom system. Where do we start?

Do we keep their stat system? Id try to avoid their stamina, dodge, multistrike, etc. Personally.

Would you work your way into classes? Paladins must start as warriors then champion the light? Warloks start as mages that find some tomes of evil?

Simple stats? Strength, smarts, speed? If you boil them all doen you really end up there. Mana system is smartsx10, then spells decrease from that and you have to regen mana?

Just spitballing shit. OP gotta make the thread live up to title lol

Four stats (Strength, Dex, Intelligence, and Wis), all of the classes are as they are in the game (none of this "start as a warrior, then go into becoming a paladin" business). Every race gets a different start score in each class but all come up to the same total numbers. Every level you get a bump in some of your stats (warriors would, say, add +4 to STR but only a +1 to the others whereas a Paladin might see a +2 STR, +1 Dex, +2 INT and +2 WIS for instance). After three levels you pick your archetype.

Spells and abilities are done by a point system (but none of this thousands business, keep the numbers small). Arcane Bolt might cost 1 point, but the highest level spells might need only cost 10?

Thoughts?

I can dig 4 stats.

Would we apply wis more towards shamans with their need to commune with and know elementals/spirits?

I wasn't meaning going into the thousands, I mean, stats themselves should end well before 100 I think.

Assuming your most expensive spell costs 10 mana (theoretically) are we looking at no increase in mana pools with levels? Maybe mages and priests could choose to buff their spells or their mana pool. I.e. Belindra has decided to buff her healing spells, while Godfrey has decided to increase his mana pool to last longer in a fight.

>Every race gets a different start score in each class but all come up to the same total numbers.

I keep reading this and can't quite follow. Each race has different stats, but classes add the same number to stats every level?

>After three levels you pick your archetype.
your spec? Like I'm level 3, i want to be a shadow priest/feral druid/holy paladin?

Combat! Limit it, make it fast. You get two actions, some spells will take two actions (pyroblast), some abilities will take 0 actions (taunt). You can do you actions then move to the next person. Maybe have bosses bosses that get more than 2 actions.

Attack is just roll attack dice + str, enemy rolls+armor (monks can maybe use dex instead)?

Just tossing more shit out there.

Multiclassing doesn't really happen aside from Med'an who even Blizzard realized was bullshit, but class changes happen so frequently in the lore its hard to just ignore.

It could be an option to trade in your levels for an appropriate class. So warlocks are a starting option, but it would also be possible for a 6th level mage or shaman to drink the Gul'dan kool-aid mid campaign and become a 6th level warlock.

I like the idea of players having a bit more freedom in choosing their main stats, with the classes having a range of abilities that benefit from different stats; the idea is that instead of causing MAD, you choose which aspect of the class you want to focus on, like enhancement versus restoration or elemental shamans.

Obviously not every class can make use of every stat, but if you're willing to veer slightly away from the strict categories used in the game you can have a pseudo-PRC-esque system. For example, a warlock that goes down the STR path is a WCII-style death knight, while a DEX-focused warlock is a demon hunter. What do you think?

Honestly, I feel like that "negotiating with the spirits" thing has completely fallen out of the lore. When is the last time we saw anyone negotiating with spirits? Thrall basically just asks nicely whenever he does anything. And I can't believe that we're asking the spirits every time we throw lightning. I assume it's more "be in the good grace of the spirits, and have their powers available to you".

Honestly, most of the elementals, especially elemental lords, are dicks who probably wouldn't help you anyway. Are we binding them to our will, and now Shamans are just elemental Warlocks? I feel the idea of "elemental bargainers" does not fit in at all with the Shaman we actually see in the Warcraft universe, who are generally the wisemen of their culture. Not at all "wheel and deal" types except for the Goblins.

To answer your question, I'd say Wisdom is far more fitting the Shaman stereotype.

the elementals on Draenor are nice-ish guys that can be reasoned with, the ones on Azeroth are dicks because they're mostly corrupted by the Old Gods

Chronicle explained the elementals' different attitudes a bit. They become erratic and destructive without the fifth element (Spirit) to balance them out, and Azeroth had a severe shortage because of the titan fetus sucking most of it up.

Draenor had no titanbabby and post-ordering Azeroth had more Spirit to go around, leading to more chilled out elementals that shaman could negotiate with.

Do you have the adaption on pdf?

There is no link in the Op, post again because this sounds interesting.

It's there just written long-hand

>goo dot gl slash cmCypo
I had to hide it like this in OP cause "spam"

I'm not that guy, but this one seems pretty sweet

If that link doesn't work, google piazza 5e warcraft. first link

anyone else for the new system we briefly talked about

What would be cooler/more rewarding to RP as

a Worgen Warlock or a Dwarf Warlock? The latter being Dark Iron

I personally like the Dark Iron dwarves. I love split in them of loyalists and Moira-ists. That some want to prove they're good people and worthy of being there, and others just want to watch the world burn. Or melt.

Cool beans.

What's the hard and fast of being Dark Iron then?

One of three dwarf clans. Outcast for their inability to accept the rule of the crown after the war of the three hammers. Their king got to diddle Moira Bronzebeard (King Magni's of age daughter).

Emperor Thaurissan was insane. Sure Moira loved him, but he and his people below were assholes to outsiders. Could have something to do with Orcs invading, a dragon living up top, a dragon forcing them to make armor, cults about the end of the world, etc.

They love a hard, bitter brew, and invade the brewfest every year because they aren't invited(no one likes their brew, yet ogres are welcome).

When Magni "died," Moira, who was pregnant when we killed her husband, came to claim the throne. She was representing the Dark iron's as their queen, and as hereditary ruler to the throne of Ironforge. The people there saw this as an invasion, and Moira turned it into one. Varian came and settled shit out creating the council of three hammers. They will rule democratically until her son is of age to rule as king.

Some Dark Irons were just happy to see all their acts (mostly) forgiven. They're still assholes to the other two clans, but they aren't actively killing. However, there are some among the dark irons who hate what Moira has done. They believe that she's shown weakness with the council agreement, and is not a true ruler for them. They hate her "half-spawn" and will not listen to him even when he is of age. They want her out, Ironforge and Blackrock for themselves, and ya know, the old gods/deathwing/whoever is smacking a whip on their backs. They seem like a race of masochists

>"Psst, kid"
>"You see a see a sign on a nearby tree reading: Deathwing's Nemesis is looking for a few good men. Report to Quartermaster Aothus for more information."
>"What?"
>"We're a friendly and social RP guild, but we just started a raid team and we plan on doing organized PVP soon."
>"Who the hell are you?"
>"Whisper me back for more info."
>"No, go away I'm leaving."
>Aothus invites you to join the guild: Deathwing's Nemesis
>"FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF"

It's also worth noting that a large portion of the Thorium Brotherhood rejoined the Dark Irons who stand alongside Moira, most notably Thaelin Darkanvil (brilliant machinist/siegecrafter) and Hansel Heavyhands (who punches orcs to death like it's going out of style).

Also, it was Anduin who proposed the Council of Three Hammers, whereas Varian was inclined to just kick Moira's ass out which would have resulted in a great deal of internal strife and the weakening of Ironforge, the Alliance's most powerful manufacturer of siege weaponry.

True. True. I was just summarizing. Anduin was basically kidnapped by Moira and varian went in with SI7 for a rescue. Anduin explained the situation and prevented a mini war.

For all the shit people give Anduin, he seems like the only morally good character. He tells Velen hes selfish for not warning of the cataclysm, was one of the earliest people trying to stop Garrosh before shit got way out of hand, etc.

Timeline question: how soon before the outland assault in BC did kaelthas give his people fel energy, and how long were draenei on azeroth after crashing before the portal reopened? Im sure fel energy was pretty soon after he left for outland, so maybe 5 years total? 4 between wc3 and wow+q year vanilla? And dreanei i always played like they were there maybe a month before the dark portal assault.

But ive been wrong on a lot before...

There was almost no time between the exodar crash and the opening of the dark portal

>there was only 6000 years between the Aqir-Troll War and the WotA
night elves evolved fucking fast. Titan blood, not even once

Mutants and Masterminds has a weird combatsystem though, at least in regards to "dying".

I'm more inclined towards building a system from the ground up rather than converting a D&D edition, but that's mainly because the magic systems are so very, very different, fluff-wise.

Of course, Chronicles made a ton of changes to the way magic works, and I'm not at all fond of them either. I hate the notion of the Light being practically just another element, for example.

M&M 3e has a unique damage system where the more "damage" you take, ther harder it is to stay on your feet. There are specific optional rules used for death that you can add or remove.

I still think M&M could work. I remember a guy talking about how he converted his high-level D&D game to M&M, and the fighter actually felt like a god of war for once.

What's a good 5 person party for a flavorful and fun adventure in current Azeroth?

I have character concepts for three so far:

Human Death Knight
Worgen Hunter
Night Elf Demon Hunter

What else should I add? I know we need a healer and probably one more damage dealer.

Your Healer can't really be a Paladin or Priest or the DK is basically screwed. Maybe a Mage as your other damage dealer.

Dwarf Shaman

As cliche as it is, I wish the Dwarf Shaman got keg totems like the Pandaren did. And that totems were still where you got your buffs from in the game.