Warcraft Lore and RPG Discussion

Gone But Not Forgotten Edition

Discuss the lore and mechanics of the Warcraft setting in relation to tabletop gaming

Previous thread:

>Arthas is a huge dick when his servants fail, but he usually praises the ones that do well

one of the things I really like in Warcraft is how very few of the villains are pointlessly evil. Even the ones that get lolcorrupted generally act in entirely reasonable ways, and even the greatest villains in the universe mostly show loyalty to their underlings

So since all the Burning Legion is showing up, any demons you'd like to see again?
I'd like to see the return of those two bosses in Arcatraz, the Wrath-Scryer Soccothrates and Dalliah the Doomsayer this time teamed up.

Well, we know the Eredar Twins from Sunwell Plateau are coming back as the warlock's base minions.

Socrethar in his not-Dragoon suit

So, the twin eredar. I remember there being a theory about them and AU draenor.

When they announced Yrel, and hell it's still on the site today, "But Yrel carried a dark secret within her. Velen sensed it, and he foresaw that for good or ill, she had a larger role to play."

The rumor was she was a relative of Kil'jaden/Archimonde, and that she and Samara were trying to be better than their relatives. Some people theorized that they were the twin Eredar in our Universe. That they weren't given the chance to be swept away with Velen, but instead became terrible monsters of demons. And now that they're coming back, I wonder if we'll get some more story of exactly who they "were."

Except, you know, when Arthas sent a group of his best Death Knights to Light's Hope Chapel knowing full well they were going to die.

anything involving Tirion doesn't count because he bends the universe around him so that he's always 100% right and unbeatable

>knowing full well they were going to die
And then almost no one died, not even the guy with an out of control weapon, Arthas arrived to save the day before anyone could be executed, and the few who remained loyal were going to get a saronite necropolis.

Yes, in that case Arthas talks like a backstabbing douche that really wanted his own troops to die, but his actions in the rest of the expansion don't line up with that. He doesn't care if they fail and someone stronger kills them, because that just means a stronger minion later on, but Light's Hope is the only time he just treats his minions like dirt even though they fulfilled every expectation EXCEPT failure.

They were trying to give DKs a motive to turn on Arthas besides just being freed and it fell flat.

Yeah I didn't get it either. Arthas was very out of character at the end of that quest.

I've made like 3 death knights and I stilled don't know what the fuck is supposed to be happening in the last quest. It literally makes no sense at all and you can tell it's supposed to be a reason for the Ebin :-DDD Blade to betray Arthas AND for Tirion to get the Ashbringer at the same time, and they couldn't put them together in a way that actually makes sense

It doesn't help that the scourge is generally very friendly in the quests where you're on their side. I felt bad sabotaging Drakuru.

Drakuru was making power plays everywhere, and he saw you as just another underling. He was extremely proud of the fact that he tricked you into releasing him in Grizzly Hills.

Drakuru actually wanted you to join him the whole time and saw you as an ally. From the quest disclosure:
Ya doin' well, .

You be provin' dat I got an eye for talent! Now ya see why da Lich King gave me his blessing....

Da time has come for me to reveal my master plan to ya, mon.

Now you be seein' how we gunna sweep through da swarms of Drakkari trolls to take our rightful place in da great palace of Gundrak.

Take dis scepter, mon. It be a token of my trust in ya. With it, you be able ta access my upper chamber and witness for yourself our secret weapons.

On completion:

So, there a have it, mon.

We be makin' da ultimate scourge army ta serve da Lich King. He gunna be most pleased!

You keep da scepter, . You gunna be needin' it ta command my army in battle....

Soon!

When you fight as part of the quest Betrayal:
Overlord Drakuru yells: Your betrayal not gunna be slowin' me down none, mon.
Overlord Drakuru yells: Ya done turned your back on destiny, mon. Now you gonna die!
Overlord Drakuru yells: I never needed ya, mon. I can crush Zul'Drak without ya!
Overlord Drakuru yells: Fool! Ya coulda been havin' great power, mon!
Overlord Drakuru yells: How could dis be? Da Lich King said he be havin' great plans for you, mon...
Overlord Drakuru yells: I shoulda known not to be trustin' nobody!

Heck, he even apologizes for tricking you in Drak'tharon keep


Drakuru says: Forgive my deception, mon. It all been for your own good.
Drakuru says: Ya needed ta prove yer worthiness....
Drakuru says: I be needin' worthy underlings in Zul'Drak, mon. Ones ready to wield real power.
Drakuru says: You see for yourself now. Da Lich King be generous to dem who obey.
Drakuru says: Follow dis path, mon, and soon you be tastin' immortality!

So, logically what should have happened?

the entire storyline shouldn't have happened and a completely different character should have lux ex machinaed Arthas to death

Can't wait for tyrone to lecture the ebin blade.

Except main universe Samara and Yrel are probably bones on the Path of Conquest. Why would they have survived long enough to become Eredar? Plus, you know, the Eredar Twins have names, Alythess and Sacrolash.

Also Samara and yrel ARE NOT TWINS.

>Plus, you know, the Eredar Twins have names, Alythess and Sacrolash.
Socrethar was named Othaar until he turned into an eredar. Not defending the rest of his argument, but it's not unfeasible they would change they're name

Pre- and post-Wrath Tirion might as well be entirely different characters. Pre-Wrath Tirion defined the paladin virtue of humility, his character-defining act was to sacrifice his rank and reputation to save the life of an old orc. Post-Wrath Tirion is a pompous windbag completely up his own ass. He has all the depth of a 40k space marine, and Ashbringer ending up in his hands turned it from a symbol of the Scarlet Crusade's fallen glory into just "the holiest sword".

I don't think the Eredar Twins are actually implied to be twins, or even related. They certainly don't look very similar. It's just the name players called them.

so, them lezzing out would totally be appropriate right?

eh, Ashbringer was really never meant to be wielded by the players

Honestly, I'm not sure Ashbringer should ever have been cleansed. Without the tragedy it's just yet another super-sword among many in the setting.

But yeah, the artifact weapons are stupid.

I liked the story behind the sword far better.
However the mage quest where you get agewynn's staff is pretty amazing

"the Ashbringer was a mistake"
-Muradin Bronzebeard

magni made it.
he made it because muradin was dead
as it turned out, he wasn't dead.
it killed the ashbringer

You know what the Ashbringer artifact quest (and some other artifact quests) and the PC worship in Legion reminds me of? FemThor. Same kind of forced character "retirements" and shilling.

No shit they are stupid. Just look at the bdk's AW' quest:
>so you kinda need a weapon, but because all the cool shit was taken, we've figured that you could take that demon's axe.
>bdk and a fireteam of other dks go to the demon world or some shit like that
>kill a small army of demons and some BL general or something
>all this shit for a fucking axe
>bdk literally kills a small army of demons for a fucking axe

And so the game tells me, that killing those chucklefucks without an artifact weapon is fine, but to kill other demon shits I need some demonic axe and my normal weapon won't cut it? Really?

it is blizzard's ace in the hole now.
WoD burned them pretty bad. Nostalrius and the like ended making blizzard look like monkeys that twirl mustaches.

Metzen is pretty blatant he gets all his ideas from comic books. Since they are dogshit, wow follows

>Nostalrius and the like ended making blizzard look like monkeys that twirl mustaches.

Nobody talks about Nostalrius anymore. Much ado about fucking nothing.

>nostalrius
Who?

It probably was at some point, considering there were multiple hints about acquiring it (the highborne prince in Dire Maul library was mentioned to know what happened to it, and might share the tale with somebody who defeated Nefarian, who at that point was not yet added as a boss), and datamining revealing a statted out version (which was pretty weak for a legendary, actually). They seemed to have dropped the plan pretty early on, although the corrupted Ashbringer "cutscene" implied that the brother of the person who forged the blade was part of the Alliance expedition to Draenor, and if still alive, could forge a new one (it's commonly believed that he's that one guy living in a small camp near the edge of Terokkar, who has a long questline about forging a demon-slaying sword).

eh, it was bad press for blizzard.
>inb4 no press is bad press

So why does everyone seem to hate Tirion?

So, if Ashbringer had to be involved in Wrath's plotline the way it was, who would have been a better fit than Tirion?

I think Liadrin would have worked well. She has just as much reason to hate the LK, and the sunwell would be a good explanation for both the jump in powerlevels and purifying the sword.

Then you could ditch the silly instapurification and suicide mission plots. Instead of Ashbringer alone driving him off and making him look like a bitch, it could be an ambush. It wouldn't be hard to predict the attack on the chapel when the scourge is going nuts on scarlets just over the hill, so when Arthas arrives he finds out they called for help and gets gangbanged by an army of paladins, blood knights led by Liadrin, and forsaken armed with the plague led by Sylvanas/Putress, making his control lapse just enough for the DKs to join in and finally force him to retreat. That makes it a little horde-centric, but hey, the zone is sandwiched between horde capitals.

because he is a mary sue neutral who is the epitome of what is wrong with WoW.

I'd say orc Jesus is the epitome. Tirion was the worst at the time, but he was just a sign of things to come.

Now that I think about it, the alliance could join the ambush through Jaina and Dalaran. Have some mages if not the whole city teleport in and start nuking him.

>Bitching about "Neutrals"

Go the fuck to bed Kosak.

Orc jesus and Tirion are the same shade of shit. Thrall is laid on so thick that he has become a joke. Tirion is just grating.

I don't really think orc Jesus was a Mary Sue until Cataclysm.

You know, when he rose above the horde/alliance conflict because reasons then stole the deathwing kill from us.

Dragon Soul was a fucking awful raid, I think dragon soul more than anything else killed my faith in WoW

>hey guys we just defeated the scourge and made the world free of the horrors of necromancy and the scourge
>farms right next to hearthglen are blighted and the 4skin are becoming scourge 2.0
>he does nothing because muh neutrality
He is a shit, and him and varian dying are the best things in the expansion. Them and Suramar being fucking god tier.

Well these are people that raid the same dungeon over and over again to get a single piece of equipment. Maybe Blizzard's just being meta?

Stop blaming Kosak's waifu-driven shit writing on in-universe characters.

Blizzard actually is in discussion with the Devs of Nostralius, so they may be thinking about using then to create an official legacy server

Tirion in his original short story and in vanilla was great, but in those appearances he was just a humble nobody who stuck to his morals and tried to do right without grandstanding. Tirion in Wrath came out of nowhere as the biggest bestest paladin everest and acts like a standard stuffy archetype who constantly lectures everyone around him.

I don't really hate him, but now that it gets brought up in these threads and I start to actually think about it, his character story is a mess.

>>kill a small army of demons and some BL general or something
>>all this shit for a fucking axe
>>bdk literally kills a small army of demons for a fucking axe
as a death knight, I killed the entire leadership of the Iron Horde and multiple demon lords and Burning Legion cultists - multiple times - just for a hollowed out piece of animal horn that would let me kill them easier. That quest makes perfect sense

Your average Blood elf has more of a tie to Arthas than Tiron did pre-Battle of Lights Hope.

Liadrin would be a good wielder of Asbringer.

>blizzard
>being meta
>in a "you are the chosen one" story

>and acts like a standard stuffy archetype who constantly lectures everyone around him.
I don't remember any lecturing aside from telling that one Argent guy to stop trying to protect him by having him travel separately from the sword.

I read the filename in his voice.

Repeatedly killing bosses isn't canon, with a few exceptions like Whitemane or Kel'thuzad.

I might be remembering a bit harshly, but he does act noticably less humble during Wrath. He does get very up his own ass during the Trial of the Crusader, especially after the fights with the faction champions (which he allowed!) and Jaraxxus.

you forgot the fact when Thassarian tells him that sending forces through the entrance is a bad idea
he does it anyway

Ah, I was still barely above dungeoneering and absolutely despised ToC so I stayed away.

So yeah I have no idea how he acted then.

So where was Dalaran from wc3 attack until wrath? Were they hiding? Because i dont remember any mention of them until wrath. Lorthemars story has them mention dalaran post sunwell reignition, but its not a surprise that its around. In fact they have blood elf dignitaries there for years.

So was it just doing a Columbia and taking worthy mages while just floating around?

they were under a bubble rebuilding the city after the third time it got destroyed in 20 years, they decided to get their shit together and protect themselves

Dalaran didn't take to the air until Wrath.

>they were under a bubble rebuilding the city after the third time it got destroyed in 20 years, they decided to get their shit together and protect themselves
Uh, what? Dalaran was only ever sacked in WC3, the WC2 Orc campaign's final two levels are both noncanon, but the Dalaran attack is doubly so.

Is there any part of the lore that's worse than this Void Lord nonsense?

There was also the conversation he has with Darion at the entrance to Icecrown. The zone, not the citadel.

Tirion gets asshurt and threatens Darion when he points out how poorly the battle is going because of his morals.

Neutering and butchering the aspects, alternate timeline clusterfucks, there must always be a lich king, and general overuse of lolcorruption.

Med'an.

Huh, i thought the bubble was meant to be a leftover from their takeoff/teleportation to somewhere else. Like a huge distracrion. But if they were just there rebulding, thats pretty cool. Shows just how deeply archimonde gripped their shit.

Broxigar

the Bronze Dragonflight

Nothing that's quite as bad and far reaching at the same time.

He's literally just "Gotrek, but an Orc, and with a magic axe from a deity other than his race's own."

Fuck. Now I remember that shit. Thank you and fuck you.

Illidan's new story.

>He's literally just "Gotrek, but an Orc, and with a magic axe from a deity other than his race's own."
yes. don't you get the cancer?

Sylvanas dindu nutin. Illidan dindu nutin. Daelin dindu nutin. Any and all dindu nutin stories really.

Daelin was rayciss.
the former two were literal dindus.

All of Deathwing's storyline

Especially Dragon Soul, that shit was fucking retarded

The worst part is that Sylvanas was in the perfect position to be viably redeemed after WotLK

She had accomplished her revenge, and been deeply humbled by her own failures. She could have recognised the madness that had taken root in the Forsaken and made moves towards removing it.

Instead, she became the madness that had taken root in the forsaken, commiting the worst crime any forsaken can commit and conquering land she doesn't need solely to pad her own sense of security.

Sylvanas post-Wrath is fucking pathetic

He used to be pretty much the epitome of the virtues a paladin is supposed to represent. His character-defining act is saving the life of a former enemy, causing him to be exiled from his order, because he owed a dept of honor and knew that Eitrig wasn't a bad person (he's one of the older orcs who are actually deeply regretful of the shit theu did during the war). His sense of honor, justice, and compassion are what defined his character, not his fighting ability, and that's still how he mostly came across in vanilla.

Then in WotLK he became High Lord Super Holyman who smited all evil with his Super Holysword while holding pompous speeches.

I like the bronze dragons

Cata is the point where he dons the bathrobes and becomes Green Jesus. Before that, he was kind of a snowflake character, but not really a sue. He was just an orc who wanted his people to find a place in the world, and who preferred peaceful means over the standard "axes and fire" school of orcish diplomacy.

>red desert
>swamp
>woods
>mountain range
>evil volcano land
the landscape on either side of the Dark Portal is strikingly similar. If only Mulgore bordered Elwynn somehow, it'd all be there

their existence is highly damaging to the integrity of the setting. Time travel is always a bad idea, and the way it's implemented in WoW makes no fucking sense at all. How did killing Deathwing in the far future where he's already destroyed Azeroth save us now?

Huh? No, you go back and kill him in the present after killing Murzorond in the far future.

The single biggest private vanilla server. There was a big fuss kicked up when Blizzard shut them down.

They weren't damaging at first. The whole bronze vs infinite plot was a blatant excuse to let players see and participate in the events of past games, and it dodged the usual problems of time travel because the bronzes were against diverging from the "correct" timeline and you always stabbed the ones that wanted to.

Things got fucked up when they introduced multiverses. Before, the implication was that killing past Arthas means no more present Arthas, screwing up the singular timeline and probably ending badly. Now you've got the potential for out of control Marvel shenanigans where King Arthas teams up with redeemed Death Knight Arthas to save two Sylvanases from Lich Queen Jaina/Gul'dan while WoD Gul'dan tries to corrupt Peacechief Garrosh and his best friend Daelin is being told by MU Jaina that he's going to be nuked by elves living at the tip of EK, which has been a goblin theme park for centuries. And then evil Velen launches a MIRV full of frozen thrones.

then why do we need to go through the CoT to get to Wyrmrest?

Because they wanted to put it in the same place as the Well of Eternity and Wyrmrest future instance portals.

It's not like the CoT *CAN'T* take you somewhere in the present.

>It's not like the CoT *CAN'T* take you somewhere in the present.
just put every instance portal in the CoT then, cause it can take us anywhere

Caverns of Time was the staging point for the assault on Wyrmrest because the Bronze Dragonflight were one of the allied forces behind it.

There are Bronze Dragons and Dragonkin helping you in the instance.

>being this casual
Fucking MoPbabies

Illidan leading the 'army of light' is bullshit pandering.

He is now the Human version of Green Jesus.

Go back to your dead city, Lorna. Whine more.

Pandering implies there are people that actually wanted angelic Illidan.

There's only one kind of pandering I want from Illidan's return.

I miss Vol'jin already.

Behold the face of your new god.

>FEEL THE RADIENCE OF TEN
>THOUSAND
>YEARS

It's so weird, and seems to miss what people liked about Illidan.

no, the edgy version

>Tirion
>edgy

Huh? Does he go full coldsteel as a death knight? I figured he would be Zeliek 2.0.

That's Whitemane's job. I have no idea what niche Tirion occupies, because the first two DKs are far more suited to being War.