Classes, yes or no

The Riddle of Steel is fast and good as long it's a duel. It doesn't have classes though.

Class and classless systems both have their ups and downs. Class systems tend to work well when the game is more focused on stats and combat, basically they're good for groups that prefer dungeon crawls and powergaming. Most classless systems, at least based on my experience, tend to be too easy to break if you try to be good for powergaming and are thus better for less competitive, more cooperative games.

Generally I prefer classless systems since I enjoy the freedom of being able to try to create my own ridiculous abilities, but this works largely because I'm going for something interesting instead of powerful. If I was more of a powergamer I probably wouldn't enjoy M&M as much since it isn't even supposed to be balanced.

Honestly I think that if you can't enjoy RPGs if the do or don't have classes then that's a really disproportionate response, and frankly childish. It is important to choose the right system for the kind of game you want to play, but limiting yourself like that is just ridiculous.

I'd say classless is the way to go. You can still have pre-made "classes" for new players who get overwhelmed by all the options while also allowing more advanced players to build any other kind of character.

For systems I like classes in the short run, classless in the long run. Enough repeat play and I start to feel constrained by the classes.

For regular campaigns (1 game a week, for instance) class systems are fine, but if we're playing sporadically I prefer classless since there's some degree of advancement between games rather than going half a year without leveling up.

This thread is actually reasonable and intelligent.

What the hell happened to Veeky Forums?

I like free point buy systems where advancing anything but attribute scores just costs an amount of experience, with the addition of 'prestige' classes (which really aren't prestige classes because they're the only classes) once certain requirements are met

Always like having "classes" like in Only War or the new star wars games where you character creation as a building block for the future character.

You get so much at the start then can buy what they are familiar with cheaper, but still be able to pick up what they might not have to a certain degree.

>maybe make a D&D hybrid
>is the response to a quote describing a BRP based D&D hybrid
Dude...

Except RuneQuest doing it since Mongoose got the rights. Attacker rolls, defender reacts (or not), if the party fails hope it lands on your shield. Winner of the contest chooses 1 effect to apply based on weapon and combat style, 2 on a crit.

Super easy, quick, and satisfying. They even have an app to make it even faster.

Rules aren't even necessary to enjoy a role-playing game, so I don't think something as specific as a class even matters unless you want it to.

No, but they help and if you're going to have a classless system it better be a fucking good one.

Humor me for a second guys;

I know this isn't actually feasible, and I'm certainly not one of those people that argues that class/leveling systems ruin games (I DM Pathfinder). BUT...

Would it be cool to make an RPG system that worked like video games like Morrowind (or other Elder Scrolls games, if that's your reference point) where you don't actually have a class, you just have a list of skills and the skills you used, you leveled up in, and that allowed you to qualify for certain classes? Or, even without classes at all, you just grew in skill with the abilities you chose to favor?

I think it might be cool to, say, have every successful trap disarm help the "Rogue" become better at the task.

That's a nice idea but video game pacing is much faster than tabletop campaigns.

The general idea is in several RPGs, like RuneQuest 6 giving bonus XP when investing an XP roll into a skill you fumble, and allowing training to improve skills.

It also lets you enter associations with your abilities to learn new ones - picture a rogue's guild worshipping a goddess of shadow that learn to become shadows. That type thing. I know other games have prestige type rolls you must meet the qualifications for.

ORE handles it pretty well.

wrong combination, i want war hammer fantasy system with classes and levels from dnd

Why?

Mostly my group, i want them to try different systems i liked WHF, but they want the "i have sneak attack" or "action surge" and shit like that from dnd

They're aren't necessary but I enjoy them

Classless only
Or classes as presets, that only give you "premade base" for character, but not disallow you from creating everything from scratch.
I was pretty hyped about the new The Witcher TTRPG and then i saw "it has classes", and lost all interest in a second.
Classes limit you by forcing you into tied transactions. You get skills and powers you don't really want or need, and they are added to your "balance check", even if they don't fit your particular character and you don't want to use them, you got them and because of that you can't have something else.
Classes usually focus too much on gimmicks, stunts and "cool powahs", which probably are a thing in powergaming dungeon crawl or something like that, but I never understood that playstyle, and probably never will. If you play something more story driven, they're just hinderance for most part.
Finally, classes either limit (few classes and limited/no multiclassing) possible character concepts or create disbalance between them (more classes and/or many multiclassing options) - by gimping certain concepts that shouldn't by weaker by logical, narrative or realism-related reasons but are, because mechanics don't favor them.
Classless systems allow for freedom in character creation, only problem is possible minmaxing, like making one-sided characters that pack everything into one aspect, but even if you have THAT GUY who does it in your group, there are mechanics that can deal with it easily, either already implemented in systems or very simple to houserule.

What game do you play?

>Do you think classes are necessary for you to enjoy a role-playing game?
HELL no. Anyone who claims they are either has never played a good classless game or is a fucking idiot you shouldn't listen to. They might be HELPFUL, for certain styles of games and players, but not NECESSARY.

Why not just make those Talents?

Currently none, but I'm reading through The One Ring books and I kind of like it, maybe I'll find few people to play it.
Before, I was playing few systems, D&D and WFRP the most, because it was hard to find people willing to play anything else here, also had my BIG share on playing NwN (both 1 and 2) on RP persistent worlds, which even worsened my bias against classes. Thing I liked the most from the games I actually played on "character creation" ground was CP2020 (though only creation, actual gameplay was too clunky) houseruled to have no classes and "special class skills" and instead of that "pick ten of your main skills".

Its a good option, i think i will mod WHF2E, adding more talents, changing the setting maybe making it less brutal who knows i will see

>maybe making it less brutal
>making it less brutal
>less brutal
Look, it's one thing to tinker with a system, but why would you try to force it to do something it was never intended for? You are better off making a new system from scratch.

Dungeon World (and other World games)
Cypher (Though only sort of class based)

For experience, when removing the danger in Warhammer (fantasy or 40K), men become gods.

>The Witcher TTRPG and then i saw "it has classes"
Can't wait to see 3/5 players picking mage or witcher.

Burning wheel does exactly this. In fact you have to get a certain amount of routine level checks and difficult level checks to level up the skill, so it encourages you to push yourself and the story to get those difficult checks. I think its a great idea.

The rest of the system might not be what you are looking for though, very character drama based.

Classless or go home. I started with nWoD and 4e, and I hated how locked into a particular role I was when I played D&D.
If you survive long enough in nWoD it's quite possible to become a jack of all trades capable of at least performing simple tasks with any relevant skill. Which kind of fits the modern age, really.

is a good compromise: all FFG Star Wars' careers do is give you a discount on skills, there's absolutely nothing saying your Outer Rim doctor couldn't have picked up gun skills to survive making house calls out in the boonies

I like both.
Focused games benefit from classes (or tend to have such few options that they're almost class games anyway). Apocalypse World and DnD both work fine in this sense.

In more 'open'/generic games, classless makes more sense.

It's not a game design decision that can be made in a vacuum.

This is a minor concern.
Witchers would need to be differentiated somehow even in classless system - at example by making them as a race and pointing "suggested" way of skill developement, and people would still make them.
Also they would often make caster characters no matter if just by taking "mage" class, or picking certain skills in classless system.

Real problem is like:
>I want to play a knight
>There is no knight class
>Uhm, so maybe i'll get mercenary and roleplay it as a knight?
>Sounds ok
>Ok, I'll take a look. Well, this class abilities not really play well with my knight concept
>well, sucks to be you, nothing more can be done, unless we do heavy homebrewing here or they'll release a splatbook with new classes, including knight class. Which may fit your concept, or maybe not. Who knows.
Knight is an example.
You may put anything that is part of the world but isn't covered by the offered classes, or even theoretically is but from another angle of view and still doesn't fit.

I look at the list and it reminds of Ragnarok Online done bad. All classes are combat oriented with progression tree. Craftsman and merchant combat shtick looks ham-fisted as fuck.

Bard: Charismatic entertainers who can befriend anyone, inculcate themselves into societies and worm their way into their opponent’s minds.
Craftsman: Talented artistans who are skilled not only in crafting weapons and armor but also craft alchemical concoctions and can make augmentations to weapons on the battle field.
Criminal: Smooth operators who can crack any safe, take a man’s life with no witnesses and rally gangs around themselves.
Doctor: Calculating physicians who are trained in field surgery allowing them to treat wounds with double the efficiency, or cause grevious wounds with their anatomical knowledge.
Mage: Scheming politicians and manipulators, removed from power and now using their often earth shaking power to escape persecution and get revenge.
Mercenary: Grizzled warriors with ages of combat experience who can calculate their opponent’s moves, take down targets from extreme range and unleash devastating attacks.
Merchant: Canny salesmen who know the power of coin. They can use their knowledge of product to find vulnerabilities in armor and track down cheap suppliers and when need be they can acquire favors & allies to break the competition.
Priest: Men and women of the Gods who use ancient blood rituals to commune with nature, heal the sick and injure or hunt down heathens and burn them with holy fire.
Witcher: Restricted to those with the proper mutations, Witchers are consummate monster hunters who dabble in mutagenic potions, simple field magic and incredibly deadly sword play.

I absolutely can't stand classes with the one exception for me being Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay because in that you jump from class to class and it makes for neat roleplaying details.

For any other game classes are a dealbreaker for me, I won't play in a system that has D&D/*World style classes.

Fuck classes
Point based free advancement 4 lyfe

>necessary
Not really. There's very little that's specifically necessary to an RPG; people just change remarkably little from the stock formula du jour.

For example, it's telling that we have a point system to modify rolls appearing before anyone thought to just give a player a hand of cards (possibly in conjunction with a deck draw to keep some randomness).

Well in WHF2 like he's explaining, it's basically a classless system with careers that tell you what you're allowed to buy and what you aren't.

You could easily just, not have them, wheras in DnD you really can't just throw the class system out and still have (Be able to make, actually!) playable characters.

I hate classes, personally. I understand why certain games have them and the purpose they serve, but since I'm not interested in that purpose I have no inclination whatsoever to play class based systems.

No hate to those who like them, I just don't. They always end up feeling artificial and contrived to me, which is the opposite of what I want when I play an RPG.

This and the equipment are the only good thing in FFG Star Wars. It really is the direction a game like D&D should go.