Villain Tiers

Making bad or harmful decisions =/= a villian.

That's why Ozymandias is a great villain and character in general.

I think he did his best to save the world, and the Rorshach is too stubborn to ever actually help people.

I'm not going to fault a guy defending his people against those who want to exterminate them.

>Kills millions
>Saves the world
lol

look, even if he killed, say, 7 million people, that's still a 99.9% success rate.

Individual vs. Collective, user. Life is not inherently sacred.

That's the fun part of Watchmen: you can interpret the characters and plot differently and still be valid.

*tip*

They fucked this up so badly in the movie that he's reduced to a meh tier villain.

So you don't fault people fighting back against Magneto? As he tries to exterminate humanity semi-regularly.

That and, you know, it wouldn't have gone to actual war. We KNOW how the Cold War ended.

>So you don't fault people fighting back against Magneto?
Exactly. No one is in the wrong here.

I'm pro-Magneto because mutants are the next step of evolution and no good can come of resisting that.

What if your villain knows what he's doing is wrong, but believes that his brutal methods will ultimately bring about a far, far greater good?

>I'm pro-Magneto because mutants are the next step of evolution and no good can come of resisting that.

...that's not how evolution works. It doesn't have 'steps' as such nor are any steps above other steps.

The population of New York City is 8 million, so you're not too far off.

People can bend metal with their mind, go invisible, or even send consciousness back in time. Or whatever crazy bullshit that happens.

That sounds like a step forward.

In Old Man Logan they determine that the mutant phenomenon was only a phenomenon and it died out, meaning they ere not an evolutionary step up the ladder but a freak accident that eventually dies out.

That's still not how evolution works. That's a change but it's not inherently better. After all, if a disease turns up that attacks the X-gene then it's an evolutionary weakness and it was humanity that was going to survive.

You can't really say 'X is more evolved than Y' when talking about stuff.

That and it's ignoring all the mutants who get nothing of note or come with downsides that make everyday life hell.

The X-Men and many of their villains are they guys that really won with their role of the dice.

>That's a change but it's not inherently better.
Yes it is. Ability to throw fire is better than not having that ability.

>After all, if a disease turns up that attacks the X-gene then it's an evolutionary weakness and it was humanity that was going to survive.
Very true. But, until that happens being a mutant in the X-Men world is beneficial.

>That and it's ignoring all the mutants who get nothing of note or come with downsides that make everyday life hell.
>The X-Men and many of their villains are they guys that really won with their role of the dice.
Never said every mutant was awesome. The one we care about, named ones specifically, are however fucking awesome.

Is that canon or some 'what if' scenario?

Old Man Logan is also extremely non-cannon though
Its likely they only did that to make sure there were only that small group of super humans left, and that it was more for the sake of the Old Man Logan story rather than anything meant to carry into other things

Greatest Villain,

A hero becomes a villain in order to stop humanity from becoming what it hates most. The hero villain is only doing evil to guide humanity in the right path and if he needs to show humanity the extremes of an ideology.

So, having the reasoning skills of a child is better because it take up less energy, until you get in an internet argument.

>Yes it is. Ability to throw fire is better than not having that ability.

Again, that's not how evolutionary science works.

They are different and that is an advantage but doesn't make them evolutionary 'Better'.

Heck, the fact that Mutants are constantly on the edge of losing and dying out seems to be a pretty good indicator that they are not optimal for their environment.

But lets say a dog is born without teeth. Thats a mutation, but it doesn't make it more evolved. Same can be said for mutants. Yes they have cool powers sometimes, but it also makes them a target, and thus can be seen as bad. Considering that mutants almost definitely have a much shorter life expectancy due to injury and murder, I'd say that a human has a better chance at surviving than a mutant does. You can't state that something is the "next evolutionary step" until it outlives its predecessors.

Wasn't necessarily a "spider", they couldn't comprehend what he looked like and a giant spider was the closest approximation their brains could make.

Also he didn't eat children, he fed on their fear.

#NotallSpiders!

shit > meh > mid > elder god > high > great

so basically Leto II then

>being able to throw fire is better than not having that ability

Better in what sense? Better for survival and reproduction?
I hate to break it to you, but being able to kill things more efficiently isn't necessarily a positive trait. Dinosaurs that were so big as to be outside the norm usually died out because no one wanted to fuck them. In reproduction, we seek those who are similar to us and share our experiences. Each mutant's power is unique; no one can relate to them. Even if a few manage to reproduce, it doesn't guarantee the offshoot will survive the next 500 years.

No, user, cooler =\= better. Cooler = cooler.

>Voldemort
>implying Voldemort did anything wrong

muggle-born wizards are a threat to the magical community's way of life. Just look at Hermione: bitch hadn't even hit puberty before she was complaining about wizard traditions and trying to tear down traditional institutions like with the 'free the house-elf' group. It's just common sense that outsiders value tradition far less.

Your premise is retarded. Just look at your examples!

>Voldemort,

Just wanted to see Wizards ruling the world like they SHOULD have been, given their godlike control over reality.

>Sauron,

Wanted to unite the world under the banner of industry and propel Middle Earth out of the Dark Ages.

>INGSOC,

Just trying to protect their people from Eurasia, Eastasia, and internal dissidents.

>Nurse Ratchet

Just trying to run a goddamn mental health facility without Jack Nicholson fucking with everyone

>IT.

Actually a giant spider who gets killed with a slingshot.

>If the world wants me dead, I'm taking it with me

There, villain plot.

*tips fedora to reveal smaller fedora*
*tips that also*

Actually, some time ago mutants started falling ill becouse of terrigan crystals in atmospere or something like that, so there is disese that targets mutants, And it spawned new wave of hate for mutants, cos humans are afraid of getting infected

>Actually a giant spider who gets killed with a slingshot.
Gettin real sick and tired on having to correct people on this, but the slingshot didn't kill him. Their BELIEF that it would is what killed him.

Most varieties of villain can be good if done right, but the 'shades of grey' villain that has made an upsurge in recent years isn't a good choice for a first-time writer or DM. It's got too much naunce to it.

I mean, yes? Leto II is such a good villain I honestly never even thought of him as a villain.

>hurr durr every life is pwecious

Don't you have an abortion clinic to bomb?

Pic definitely related

We don't know how it would have ended in an alternate universe where Nixon is president for five terms. There's an implication that he was becoming unhinged as well.

I mean he was called "The Tyrant" for 3000 years for a reason
but then again, you need a good apex predator to get humanity's survival instincts going and force them to scatter across the galaxy instead of just growing fat and killing themselves off slowly

Rorschach did his best to save the world from what perceived as a greater evil. This is exactly why Watchmen was a good comic/movie

*rate at which fedora is being tipped increases exponentially*

>Magneto shouldn't be on this list of villains. He isn't one.

Mass murderer, raging racist, megalomaniac, hypocrite, cult of personality.

He's justified in his hate, not in his actions, and guess which of these makes you a villain.

>Watchmen was a good comic

yes

>a good movie

fuck you and everything you stand for

Aside from the weird power up for the characters (which was done for greater mass appeal) what exactly is wrong with the movie?

Well it WAS a good movie
Sure, it wasn't an exact copy of the comic, but it was good
You don't have to hate it just because it isn't the same thing

Zach Snyder does good choreography and visuals, but I have no idea why they think that means he can actually be in charge of a whole movie.
the opening credit montage of Watchmen is absolutely perfect because it's creative while still being true to the novel and getting information across well. Everything after that is horribly paced and a mess because Snyder didn't adapt it for a movie, he basically copied the novel scene for scene

underrated post

We didn't have Dr. Manhattan destabilizing the whole situation just by existing. It seemed quite likely that the Cold War was about to go Hot very soon if Ozymandias hadn't pulled his little stunt.

Bleh, always disagree with that villain chart when it comes up.

Not to mention. Comic book/ Vidya / Comic / Vidya / Comic / 1 Moive / Vidya.

Needs a serious overhaul, especially presenting to Veeky Forums

Can we agree that big bad monster villains are great tier?

>Dinosaurs that were so big as to be outside the norm usually died out because no one wanted to fuck them.

This isn't how the Dinosaurs died out at all.

That's somehow even stupider than what I originally thought.

And no, the whole "it's not a spider, that's just what they saw it as" thing does not make it better. If IT had just been a spooky clown ghost it would have been fine, but the entire finale of that story just piles on the retardation so hard that the only thing that comes to mind that's worse is The Langoliers.

> Implying comicbook genetics even resemble making sense

The weird thing about Zach Snyder is that every movie he's made has been worse than the one before it. By the time Justice League Part II comes out it will be completely black and white and every singe scene will be a tenuously-relevant teaser for something that's planned for JL part 3.

It's explained better in the books. Basically, Pennywise is a like a mirror, your fear reflects off of him which makes it real. That's why the slingshot worked, they reflected their belief that it would kill him back off of him which made it lethal. I'm assuming you could kill him with conventional means (happens in another book) though.

Probably explaining it shittily, it was pretty well explained in the book.

The only villains are those who oppose DOOM.

I have a villain that used to be sympathetic before he jumped off the deep end and became a puppy-kicking, mustache-twirling, batshit insane manipulative maniac who has tiny moments of clarity he regularly ignores for the sake of seeing his childishly naive goal of resetting the world through.
Even he knows he's doing the wrong thing, he's just too obsessed with 'winning' after being screwed over his whole life to stop. He's a control freak obsessed with his power and using it to crush others to prove his 'superiority'.
Where does he stand?

The best way I get the point across to people is that if IT were to turn into a vampire or werewolf IT would have all the weaknesses (You) believe a vampire or werewolf would have. You actually have to believe it though which is why the protagonists had an easier time as kids. The spider at the end is something close to its real form but it's basically your mind censoring something that is too fucked up and eldritch for it to understand so "spider" is the closest thing you can interpret a piece of the real IT to be without losing SAN.

Let's just hope it never comes to that.

One lost life is a tragedy
A million is a statistic

*tips to the nth degree*

>Sauron
>"interesting villain with depth"

You have to be fucking kidding me. Puerile taste aside, most people get sick and tired of stories where villains are stupid or evil "just because" even as children. Characters that behave without proper motivation are massive flaws if you really want people to take your story seriously.

What about this guy Veeky Forums?
>Conducts horrible experiments on everyone for the sake of science
>Steals ancient secrets to further the Reich
>Is ultimately responsible for Nazi Victory
>A victory that leads to man being on the moon years earlier and establishing a colony there
>Taunts the PC how he created so much and how you are the villains for destroying it all.

As a Doomfag, I approve

>hasn't read the silmarillion
Sauron had well established motivations for his actions at each stage of his being. As a maiar of Aule, he had a strong inclination towards order, hierarchy, and industry. Melkor corrupted him into his service by showing him the chaotic effects the other Valar and the works of men and elves brought into the world, and reasoned with him that a strong master was needed to take control of creation and bring stability, which appealed greatly to Sauron's orderly mindset. The havoc Melkor himself wrought was explained away as a necessary evil to clear away those who opposed, while the majority would ultimately be brought to heel.

By the time Morgoth fell, Sauron was entirely dedicated to bringing all of middle earth under a single dominion so that he could enact his vision of order, his methods colored by his accumulated hatred for the elves and races of men who had continually scorned and opposed him and his master.

Sauron wasn't evil "just because." He was evil because his grand vision of a perfectly ordered world had been repeatedly smashed apart and destroyed.

In short, he was hitler?

true god tier (herr starr level)

He's a good villain because he's a loathsome cunt who it is very satisfying to defeat.

If comics are the only media you consume then they really shove this shit down your throat. Comics are fine but they (especially, but not limited to, Big 2 cape comics) are the equivalent to candy. Fun, but you've gotta have something more.

Nah. At the start, Sauron wanted everybody to accept Morgoth's rule willingly, or at least be brought under it. He didn't want to just off everybody because then he would have less to rule and build with.

It was only later on that he became more interested in controlling the world than ruling the people in it. By that point he was so far gone into his methods and so full of hate from his defeats that he would just as soon kill everyone but his own followers as try to establish control over them. His logic was something along the lines of "it doesn't matter how many subjects I have as long as there are no dissenters."

OPhere
I've always wanted to do a villain like this
One who tries to suppress thoughts that he should turn good, for the sake of greed. The same way a paladin suppresses thoughts that he should fall, for the sake of a cause.

That is some odd grammar I just used but I don't feel like re-writing it.

*tipping leads to further tipping*
*the tipening is upon us*

If you're willing to bring the simarilion into things, then Morgoth is the true big bad, and his motivation is basically just "muh jealosy".

>Republicans are evil meme

Sounds like a hero.

The Nazi's have destroyed as much as they created, and then some. Remember that they're literally just walking through Africa shooting every black person they see, and the reason the Kraisau circle is filled with art is because the Nazi's would have destroyed it all if they got their hands on it.

>the Republican party isn't pure retards meme
>shitposting about politics meme

He's a tragic character user.

Doomed out of all the creator's children to be a free and individualistic being. His one desire to be his own master and creator was the birth of "discord" in the great harmony of creation.

From there Evil was born, and as the creator of it, he became the very entity of evil.

>Democrats are so smart and tolerant.
>Ignores the New Slavery of men, aka Welfare.

Come on lad, we can banter all day.

Let's focus on fictional villains alright?

My favorite villains have always been the mid tier on that list.
Tyranids, the Thing, Lavos, The Abyss.

Where the 'villain' is not evil, is not malevolent, it's just a creature that is trying to survive, it's just unfortunate that as far as it is concerned we are but cows/ants/gnats to be consumed, destroyed, or ignored.

It does not care nor does it feel for you, it just is.

That said, I find them a pain to use in any kind of campaign, since they tend to make everything super serious and on a timer.

I really liked the 2-D aliens from that one episode of Doctor Who.
For the whole episode the Doctor insists that they don't understand human life and only kill in ignorance, despite all evidence to the contrary.

Then it turns out they actually do know that they are killing people but do it anyway because they are cunts.

>I don't even feel sorry about the inevitable leak and war from Rorschach's journal. Oxymandias has the blood of millions on his hands, and the peace won is built on a lie
Better all of humanity die knowing the truth?

If the truth hurts, then the pain is good. If the truth kills, you deserve to die. The alternative is merely stockpiling pain and death until there's too much to ignore.

If you don't like the truth, work to change it, don't hide it. Make something better be true instead of pretending what's true isn't.

Watchmaker scene is as good as it gets, and the only time any film has ever legitimately used a Phillip Glass track.

Alright, I hate to shift goalposts, but you must concede at the very least that Sauron, purely in the LotR trilogy, is about as fleshed out, human, and interesting as an inexplicably diabolical rock.

>It's a funny story that puts the most sympathy on the psychopath.

Even funnier when you find out that Moore didn't want ANYONE to like that character. Which is funny, because he made him so fucking sympathetic.

Sure, but that's because LOTR is three chapters cut out the middle of a larger book. Of course it's going to botch characterizing him; his intro was three hundred pages earlier.

Not that user, but I would love a webcomic of this exactly. Imagine some wizard-level virgin trex just trying to get some, but he can't keep the spaghetti in his pockets because his arms are too short, then his race dies out. I'd laugh my ass off if it wasn't so real.