Neogi

I really hate these things. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with "bad guy races," but Neogi are just badly written. All they are are slaving slavers who take slaves. It's especially bizarre that they were introduced in Spelljammer, which was otherwise so thoughtful and creative. There, all they are is bargain bin mindflayers (there's almost literally nothing absolutely nothing about them- slavers and pirates, eat captives, ships shaped like invertebrates- that isn't shared by the Illithids). I opened up Lords of Madness to make sure they weren't given any depth in 3.5e, and the only worthwhile thing in their fairly lengthy entry was a bitchin' illustration of a crashed mindspider. I can't even fault WotC for that, since the original lore gives you nothing to work off of and the only way to fix it would be to gut most of it and turn them into something else entirely.

I hardly ever see them talked about here. Is this a common opinion? Have any of you made them work well in a campaign?

Your opinion is shit and you should feel bad about it.

Also planting eggs in their captives who incubate them then die.

But yeah, they're spider-illithids, basically. Not much real value in them.

Now, if you wanted to give them a full work-over and make them interesting, I'd love to see what you can do with them.

D&D is chock full of redundant monsters that exist to be little more than evil things for PCs and friendly NPCs to fight against.

Pick the ones you want, and ignore the rest. Personally, I think Neogi at least look alien and a little disturbing compared to the more comical octopus headed Illithids and their dozens of subspecies.

Use one to play off the other. Have Illithids be bad, but Neogi are worse, making what the Neogi do to Illithids inspire at least some sympathy for the Illithids. Then you give the PCs a potential for a team up with the Illithids against the Neogi, enemy of your enemy and all. Or switch them and have Neogi be more sympathetic, but Illithids are at least humanoid compared to these snake-spiders.

I think Neogi exemplify the horror of slavery by being so obviously inhuman and relating in no way to humans. They think of and treat you with as much regard as you would an insect.

They might be redundant with Illithids in role - are they in society? Illithids have their consumptive, communist Elder Brain set-up. I'd make Neogi highly commercial if only to contrast them some.

Neogi are less interesting if you forget about their thrall race of umber hulks.

Did you forget about their thrall race of umber hulks, OP?

>Now, if you wanted to give them a full work-over and make them interesting, I'd love to see what you can do with them.
Again, the lore gives you very, very little to work off of. Anything I could do would just make them a totally different race that happen to look the same.

What about a more overtly evil Tau? Keep the slavery and rigidly hierarchical society but make them see the value in treating their slaves reasonably well. Change their motivation from greed to conquest and a twisted sort of benevolence. They see themselves as caretakers and believe their "charges" are genuinely better off under their "guidance." Under the Neogi there's no war or starvation. "Nobody loses and everyone wins just as long as each comrade obeys." Give them religious beliefs that make them the rightful rulers of everything and all the other races analogous to runaway dogs.

Essentially, make them a bit less mustache-twirlingly evil and more a species whose values are alien and unrecognizable to anyone else, who can't (or refuse to) acknowledge that their "help" isn't appreciated.

>I'd make Neogi highly commercial if only to contrast them some.
There's definitely touches of that, but there isn't enough depth or nuance to do anything with

But there's even less to the umber hulks than there is to the neogi. If they had some kind of interesting, complex society it might redeem the neogi a bit, but they're mostly just blindly obedient

Okay, I'll take a shot at this.

If the glue that binds Neogi society together is trade, there has to be somebody willing to trade with them.
Lords of Madness explicitly states that they are tolerated and even welcomed at markets and ports.
It also states that societies that make use of slaves are likely to have dealings with Neogi.

Githyanki are notorious slavers. Githyanki are also sworn enemies of the Mind Flayers. Okay, so we have the beginnings of a political situation there.

Here's a scenario:

A Githzerai warband needs financing in order to continue their ongoing war against the Mindflayers. They pay for their war effort by stealing thralls the Mindflayers themselves. The Mindflayer's thralls are already empty lobotomized shells bred for slavery, so the Githyanki are barely even doing anything wrong here.
This Githyanki warband then gives the thralls they've seized to the Neogi in exchange for provisions. The Neogi then put the thralls to work producing more provisions for the Githyanki war effort so that they can continue to kill Mindflayers.
Is it evil?

>Is it evil?
Yes, but the Githyanki are evil as a race, so it's fine for them to do it.

If we're talking about githyanki and presumably other planar races, don't forget about the Tso! They're a planar variant of the Neogi that are a little more friendly, at least to each other.

Look at that lil' cutie!

Is that from Planescape, or Spelljammer?

Planescape.

Do Neogi have their own book similar to The Illithiad or I, Tyrant?

I don't believe so. It would be cool to see them get a little more coverage.

I like where this user is going.

Thanks. I'll keep going then.

Okay, so the way I see it, Neogi have a grudge against the Mindflayers. But they can't engage in open warfare with the Mindflayers out of fear of what the Beholders might do.
Beholders have been watching the Mindflayer/Neogi conflict intently for centuries, waiting for either side to blink so they can make their move.

However, the Neogi can fight the Mindflayers indirectly by financing Githyanki raiders and adventuring parties.
A slave stolen from the Mindflayers is worth ten slaves taken elsewhere as far as the Neogi are concerned.
This allows for Neogi to be used as questionable patrons for unscrupulous adventuring parties (rather than antagonists).

Thoughts:
What can the Neogi give the PC's that the PC's can't get elsewhere?
Both Neogi and Drow have spider themes. Are they connected in some way?

As written, yeah, they're a bad guy race.
Negoi become less obviously a bad guy race if slavery is legal in whatever region the PCs are in. Maybe even the PCs home region.
Even Lawful Good regions might sentence criminals to indentured servitude, and that's not too far from the Neutral position of voluntary indenture (to pay off debts).

You could then introduce the Negoi as "trading partners", to whom The State/The Church or private indenture owners lease their captives for fixed terms. Maybe even have Negoi who don't eat/lay eggs in their captives (because why waste labor? A pig would do fine, would it not?) oversee the indentures in an otherwise neutral/good location.

>What can the Neogi give the PC's that the PC's can't get elsewhere?
Information from slaves who were once in positions where they knew important information, freed slaves for a variety of reasons, gear that protects against psionic intrusion

>Both Neogi and Drow have spider themes. Are they connected in some way?
My gut says no, but it would be funny if they constantly look down on and backhand-compliment each other over how they've gone about their spider aesthetic whenever they're forced to socialize.

I'll have a go

Lawful evil.

They're based entire on trade. "Slaves" are merely contracted workers whose contract is traded as a commodity.

Slaves are to be paid their contracts confirmed payment, and are protected by Neogi law. Slaves are not to be harmed or treated unfairly under Neogi law, this voids the slave contract.

Neogi culture is based entirely around contracts. Neogi young from a tiny age learn how to twist and weave words into webs of deception and pitfalls, however, the Neogi culture applauds well crafted and subtle contracts, with outright one-sided contracts seen as a weakness of character. Trading with Neogi is far less dangerous than a Devil, Drow or a Ilithid, as you can be sure by contract that the Neogi will never doublecross or betray you, but the inevitable feeling that the Neogi has gained so much more than you will forever loom over you.

In short, Neogi are /pol/ tier jews.

>Information from slaves who were once in positions where they knew important information, freed slaves for a variety of reasons, gear that protects against psionic intrusion.

You know what Neogi need more of? Unique technology.

Look at what Mindflayers have:
Brainmates
Cephalometers
Dampsuits
Exoskeletons
Glare Goggles
Psionic Seals
Psychic Resevoirs
Resonance Stones
Striators
Tentacle Extensions
etc.

But what do the Neogi have?

>My gut says no, but it would be funny if they constantly look down on and backhand-compliment each other over how they've gone about their spider aesthetic whenever they're forced to socialize.

That would be quite entertaining.
I was just thinking about umber hulks though. Neogi use them extensively. Umber hulks are native to the Underdark. Drow live in the Underdark. I was just thinking maybe there might be some trade going on between them. And maybe Lolth enjoys some popularity among the Neogi.

>Both Neogi and Drow have spider themes. Are they connected in some way?
No. In Spelljammer it's stated they despise each other and Drow will attack Neogi ships on sight. I believe Lolth hates them for being a perversion of the holy form of a spider or something along those lines.

>You know what Neogi need more of? Unique technology.

A lot of it will probably revolve around taking, keeping, and maintaining slaves.

Then here's an idea:
There are two kinds of slaves that Neogi value most highly:
1) Slaves stolen from the Mindflayers
2) Mind-broken Drow.

Drow are zealots. Fiery. Challenging.
Neogi love to see that zeal extinguished.

Better yet, Lolth punishes weak Drow by transforming them into Driders, right?
Maybe Drow enslaved by Neogi change into Driders? The Neogi must love that. It's like a magical realm for them.
Gives Drow a good reason to hate Neogi, right?

>bitchin' illustration of a crashed mindspider

Why couldn't they even get the name right. The ship from LoM was a Deathspider, not a Mindspider.

Or look at the Grell, whom I think deserve a lot more attention than they get.

So shock collars, knock-out poisons, net launchers, web bombs.

Aboleth take slaves and keep them compliant by removing their ability to breathe air, and making them dependent on the Aboleth to keep re-granting them Water Breathing. Maybe the Neogi do something similar. Combination slave collar, bondage suit, and rappelling harness. Keep the slaves literally leashed in place but able to rappel around their cavernous homes.

I definitely feel like there's a lot of room for chemical/alchemical toys in their arsenal, mostly because very few races do that. Poison-sprayers, flame-throwers, gas grenades, etc.

There's a problem with this idea:

The 2nd edition Monster Manual states that 6th level Drow are put through a special test, and only those that fail the test become Driders.

Hmmm... maybe the Neogi have managed, through deep brain probing of a captured priestess, to discover the secret of creating Driders. And through their own variation of this process, create their own Neo-Driders for their own nefarious purposes.
Hence, why the Drow really, really hate Neogi.

It's conceivable that a Neogi merchant might slip the PC's some rumors regarding certain treasures hidden away in Drow strongholds. It's possible that this Neogi merchant might reward the PC's handsomely if they were to sneak into the Drow stronghold and plant a scrying (teleportation) beacon in that stronghold so that the Neogi might "keep tabs on enemy movements."

Idiot

Wait, shit misread your post. Thought you were saying Mindspiders weren't a ship

But it is a Mindspider. You can clearly tell by the segmented legs

the drider curse varies from edition to edition, and mot people arent playing 2nd, id think.

I imagine them using a lot of poisons tailored to the particular creatures they intend to enslave.

Riffing off of this post...

If Neogi are fighting Drow, they are going to need some answers for Drow tactics.
Drow would be quite tricky to enslave using normal Neogi methods. They have spell resistance, and a bonus on will saves against spells and spell-like abilities.
Drow also coat their weapons with knockout poison, and a bunch of spell-like abilities.
Drow are blinded by bright lights, however.

Some ideas:

Neogi use alchemical flash grenades to blind Drow.
Neogi have specialized Umber Hulks trained for grappling and equipped with items that grant poison immunity.
The Neogi can also craft special 'Compliance Collars' that strip the wearer of spell resistance, and toxins that penalize the target's Will.

The 3.5 Monster Manual says something to the same effect.
I think it's 4E where they changed the drider state from a curse to a blessing.

>more technology
>Umber hulks

Perhaps, instead of technology, the Neogi breed semi-sentient animals to perform whatever task they need. Umber hulks are their most common tool in combat, but they also have other creatures as well.

>Membrik
Neogi need extensive memories to remember their numerous and convoluted contracts, and often their own minds just can't keep track of it all. This bloated, slimy creature was bred from something resembling a parrot. It is immobile but intelligent, and will remember perfectly anything it hears or reads to recite later.

>Exohulk
Umber Hulks are useful, but not very intelligent. This variant umber hulk has a cavity in its abdomen that connects directly to its central nervous system. A Neogi can crawl inside and directly control it, thereby giving it an edge in combat.

>Slavetrackers
A luminous hive of insects. Neogi slaves are forced to swallow a capsule containing a tracker queen, so when released, the hive will immediately seek out any escaped slave and bite and sting it to make it easier to capture and more obedient in the future.

>Qullek
Small animals that latch on to the Neogi body and perform some offensive or defensive action when properly prodded. The most common ones fire sharp spines that contain poison; others may have grasping legs or perform psionic bursts.

>Ugram
Although Neogi generally fly in their own airships, there are some environments where more specialized craft are needed. The Ugram is some kind of bug the size of a shark; it can transport an individual neogi underwater, keeping it alive in a pod in its head.

Good ideas!

I feel like the Neogi would make more use of their ability to lay their eggs inside of other organisms.

>Debtor's Egg
The Debtor's Egg is a Neogi implanted within a creature with a special delayed incubation effect. A creature with a Debtor's Egg inside them must make regular payments to receive a tailored drug that keeps the egg's development temporarily stunted. With each late payment, the unborn Neogi inside the debtor grows a little bit more. If the debtor defaults on their payment, the egg inside them will hatch and kill them. The egg can be removed when the debt is payed in full.

Best bad guys coming through.

And a bitch against a party that relies on its spellcasters

Xill, huh?

Interesting...

One of my most common setups is to have them inhabiting a temple of some sort and worshipped as deities, and when the party comes in to stop the cult from sacrificing individuals to it for it to reproduce, they find out it's not just one, but around 4 of them.