Tabletop Miniature Gaming

Wow, i was not aware there was such a variety of games. I will have to look these up individually.

I like the idea of solo play, although i'm not too hot on the whole war in space kind of thing.

That might be a mildly silly question: Are there things like quizzes or comparison tables that help you decide on a faction? Also thanks for answering so many questions! :)

Going to second the people saying Infinity.

Intro boxes are great deals, and so is the 2 player box, but only if you are interested in the factions.

My FLGS has casual play 1 per week and runs tournaments every 6 weeks or so. I've played at big cons and everyone is super friendly, way better community in my experience than GW/PP/Wyrd games.

The one caveat is it does have a steep learning curve, and the first time you encounter TAGs, Drop Troops, TO Camo, you will probably get stomped.

Deployment is super important, as is decision making, a good player will literally never lose to a bad player because there are many ways to overcome bad luck, skew the numbers extremely in your direction. Its not like 40k where a large percentage of the game is decided by dice, though there is enough randomness to keep it exciting.

I personally love the fluff too, lots of really cool stuff with a much more realistic feel than most sci fi games.

The Starterpacks are definite a sweet deal, since you get 6 (mostly basic) models for the price of 3-4. Some Packs are outdated tho like the Yu Jing and Haqqi box. Do a little research before buying, there are enough "what to buy" guides on the Web to make getting into the game easier.

Thanks for chiming in! This is what i really like about games in general. A fair bit of randomness but still a clear distiction between bad/good decisions. Really like the vibe i'm getting from it.

Will do! Sounds solid.

Mostly people recommend picking whichever faction you like the models/fluff of.
Pictures here:
infinitythegame.com/catalogue/

The rules differences between the different factions is a lot more subtle than in other games. If there's a specific playstyle (sneaky stuff, heavy infantry, defensive area control) that you like, you can generally find a way to do it in pretty much any faction.

Best advice is to go with a faction you think looks cool. It would be incorrect to claim that the balance is perfect between factions or units, but with these kind of games it never is. Just keep in mind that outside the Tohaa faction you can play with two different type of armies. Either vanilla, which gives you access to all the units of the factions, or sectorial army, which have smaller, themed list of units it can field, but can take more of those units (alongside some extra mercenary units) and field link teams, which are a group of figures that give each other bonuses.

For example, Nomads (space gypsies) can be played as vanilla, or (currently) as either Bakunin or Corregidor sectorials, both themed after the ship they're named after.

That sounds like a solid layer of extra depth that i can totally get behind.

I guess that mixing factions is not possible right? That is also something i often appreciate, since i come from M:tG and like to mix and match occasionally.

Beyond the gates of Antares.

Small scale, that will scale up well. At the moment all in one book! Starter has two forces. Nice game, nice setting and good figures. Dice activation so not that I move all my models, then shoot all your good stuff and you get to move and shoot with what's left. There's also a reaction system as well so that's good too

Star Trek: Attack Wing
> Basically the exact same thing as X-Wing (the game system was licensed), but with Star Trek instead of Star Wars
> Obviously, much more attractive if you like Star Trek
> Base kit is cheap ($30) and has some of the best cards in the game
> Rulebook is short and simple; FAQs & the Tournament Rules doc fill in some grey areas. All are relatively short.
> Extra ships are $10-$15; since most matches will use at most 4 or so ships, you only have to buy the ones you want.
> Already a ton of ships available, and more have been coming out every few months
> Your local game store may host the tournament events with prizes, or you can just play casually with friends
> Each ship pack includes an optional play scenario inspired by scenes in the shows & movies; most are multiplayer but a few are solo for you to challenge yourself
> The rolls of the dice are pretty important, which tends to equalize skill levels a bit (so it's a pretty casual game on the scale of hardcoreness)
> Being able to say out loud, "As my action, Captain Picard orders Miles O'Brien to beam over to the ISS Enterprise and stab Evil Mr. Spock in the neck, discard his card for the rest of the match" is hilarious.

>40K
I personally got tired of the endless fluff wars and runaway scale bloat and dropped it a couple years ago, but there are few places you could ever go that you wouldn't be able to find someone to play with.

I swear GW never edits their writing, so rules and abilities require extensive cross-referencing and will occasionally end up simultaneously saying you can and cannot do something - look up Warp Spider Flickerjump for a good example - leading to frustration to anyone trying to actually follow the rules. But then people will just tell you it's a "fluffy" game anyway, so whatever.

>WarmaHordes
Just getting into it myself. The game has a major emphasis on competitive/tournament play, ability combos, and list synergy, which means the rules are much less open to interpretation (read: lacking GW's contradictory doublespeak) but does seem to generate a fair number of self-important tryhards in the playerbase. There's a new edition (Mk3) coming out meant to rebalance a lot of units and clean up excess rules that should mix things up.

>X-Wing
Currently holds a sweet spot in between fluffy casual bait and well-managed rules system. Prepainted models take a lot of emphasis away from the model hobby side of things, but the Star Wars license and nice learning/skill curve make it one of the easiest minis game to get people into.

>Dropfleet Commander
SOON

>WizKids QUALITY product
>shuttlecraft and one-man solar sailers modeled at the same scale as the Dominion battlecruiser
>Federation ships (and a whole lot else) with fixed firing arcs and dogfight maneuver tracks because fleet systems are hard and FFG had a pretty good thing going right
>tons of content locked behind the "limited prize edition" wall because something something Paramount licensing is insane
>good luck finding a population of players outside of a major city
Basically the poor man's X-Wing, you mean.

There's a few niche cases, as some faction units double as mercenaries - but it's rare. The individual sectorials have very different flavors and styles of play, so the 'vanilla' lists should be able to sate a mix and match lust.

Also, if you have a friend, absolutely split Icestorm with them. It's insanely good value for what it is.

Most of these are pretty valid complaints to be honest, although I think a lot that the "limited prize edition" stuff can mostly be ignored (unless you get hardcore into the tournament scene).

> good luck finding a population of players outside of a major city
I mean, it's probably true for STAW, but it's probably also true of just about every tabletop game besides the really heavy hitters. So it's tautological.

Anyways, I'm not saying it's the greatest, but it is easy and I do have fun with it with my buddies, so I thought I'd throw it out there in case OP is a secret Trek fan.

Mantic's Deadzone just went into it's 2nd edition. A straightforward Sci-Fi skirmish game with nice 3d scenery and more focus on campaigns and linked games than something like Infinity. Mostly plastic figures too with the associated conversion options that gives you.

Out of curiosity's sake, why no historicals?

Also: Gruntz 15mm. Sci-fi skirmishy game with platoon sized forces, tries to be more space opera than the more typical gritty hard (or rather Vietnam/other post-colonial period conflicts but in Space!) sci-fi, the system itself isn't particularly hard to get a grip on and half the book is exploring additional options like how to build your own units and trying out different turn systems and scenarios.
15mm miniatures not really required.

X-Wing is great if you like fast play (~1hr per game, tops) and focusing on strategic depth rather than commitment to a single force like you would with an army of painted minis.

Also you don't *have* to paint anything but the minis are eminently paintable, so if you don't have a lot of time for painting your minis look good on the table even while half of it isn't done to your specifications.

Saying "it's true of just about every tabletop game" isn't really valid when your main competitor, X-Wing, is now the most popular miniatures game there is.

Please note that Malifaux is extremely objective centric. Not only can you win the game with no models on the table at the end, but it can be extremely detrimental to take a killy list. I like it for that, but you might not.

>I prefer:
>- no historical wargaming
I thought like this once, I don't know why.

Go look at your LGS and see what game has the best and largest community. No point in starting a game if there is no one to play with you.

The only game that is going to have a community is Warhammer 40K

The only game that people play at my LGS is Warmahordes... And that's like 4 dudes.

Oh, that and MTG. It's 99% MTG.

Op here, had to sleep and go to university.

I'm just not very fond of most historical scenarios. Or rather don't care much about them.

Gruntz sounds interesting. Isn't building your own units counter intuitive to selling stuff? I mean I like it but it seems like a mediocre business decision.

Will take a look at Star Wars, i think theres a LGS near me that has some players.

That sounds neat. Are there starter sets or something similar?

>Isn't building your own units counter intuitive to selling stuff? I mean I like it but it seems like a mediocre business decision.
The author does not make miniatures, but does have a good relationship with a half dozen of the top 15mm SF manufacturers (identified right there on the cover).
Gruntz uses a system very similar to Warmahordes, but without the ever-deepening pool of special rules and superheroes. It also acknowledges that different people like different play options. We use an alternating activation system locally, for example. Typical force around here is maybe 30 models including a handful of vehicles. $60 bucks, tops.

That seems really neat. I don't suppose you know a lot about availability in Europe/Germany?

>I recently played a demo game of Dropfleet Commander

Wait, where?

And what was it like? I only ask because I kickstarted that and I'd like to know if things are still all on course.

Availiabilty of 15mm is good in europe. Splintered light and rebel minis are the only major prodicers of 15mm you'll have to buy from usa, if you want to. Other than that GRUNTZ is THE 15mm sci fi ruleset, so if you find someone with 15mm minis he'll probably know GRUNTZ.
Also you can use 15mm minis with 28mm rulesets. A good example is Bolt Action, which feels better witj 15 than with 28mm. A bad example is 40k, which is a shit ruleset to begin with, but also possible and again ranges will feel better compared to miniature size.
The best hing about 15mm is scratchbuilding/converting vehicles and especially dropships. I'd recommend you join some facebookgroups and get some inspiration yourself.

At RPC in Cologne, Germany. They set up a small play area and a small shop. Seemed very finished. They were offering Starter kits for 67€ if I recall correctly.

....

And now that i'm researching properly i'm realize that i played Dropzone Commander. My bad.

I'd recommend you join tabletopwelt.de , you'll get a better view of what's going on in germany and what is played in which city. Obviously games workshop ,warma/hordes and x-wing is played everywhere but 'tier 2 games ' like DCZ, Saga and Spartan Games vary from city to city.

Thanks! Will check it out.

Will take a look at GRUNTZ for sure.

My current take-away of the thread is, that I'll check out Infinity, Malifaux and Gruntz, maybe Star Wars X-Wing if i have time to spare. Thank you all for your contributions, i will check back later!

I have about 20years of playing various miniature games behind me. Here are some of my favs.
Fantasy (as it was) - One, in my personal opinion, most FUN games you could play. Could be because my childhood world was all about this theme. But there is no denying, the game is dead, but has a lot of un-official support through old fans. Look up Warhammer 9th age for more details.

40k - Also an old time favorite. Not the best of rules, but thats not what GW is famed for. Though it hosts some of the best plastic multi part kits on the market. And despite what many may say, its in line with most other producers price range, so... its expensive no matter what you play. Its fun, and it can (in the right crowd) be played in a tournament setting, but I prefer the more casual beer and pretzel approach on all type of GW games.

Warmahordes - a game with added miniatures. While the miniatures are slowly getting better, they are still lacking for the price that Privateer Press wants to take out. The counter argument is that this, of course, is a semi-skirmish game. But this is manipulated truth to be told, because as any wargamer will tell you, once your stuck, you want everything! The game itself is fun as hell in my opinion. And it really shines in the tournament aspect of the game. A lot of "rock, paper, scissors" action going down. And with the launch of mk3 there couldn't be a better time to start.

Infinity - The game has some of the coolest models around, all metal and single poses, but still freaking awesome. Its core balance builds upon a fixed amount of skills, and teams that are vaguely similar in approach. The rules are free, the army builder is free (and great to boot!), lots of tips and great internet contents. Plays at a skirmish level, but don't let that fool you. What makes up the majority of costs in Infinity, is not the team, its the terrain!

Oh god, please not this funshit again.

Oh God if a game happens to be more fun than well balanced and tournament ready!
Whats next? A hobby thats actually amusing to the person who uses it. This truly is absurd thinking, and I agree with you user.

A hobby should be perfectly balanced, mathematically correct and most of all feel like a full time job when exercising it! No time for fun in this business.

By the way user, If you didn't get it this is called sarcasm and you sound like a real cunt who really should quit the hobby.

Please, define "fun" and why it should be opposite of "balance"?

Fun is a personal preference, as I actually mention several times in my original post.
I have not claimed it to be the opposite of balance, thats your words not mine.
I simply claims in a sarcastic way that balance and well written rules should go before "fun".
Fun in this scripture, still being a personal perspective, also noted in my original post as

>One, in my personal opinion, most FUN games you could play. Could be because my childhood world was all about this theme.

But somehow you seem to have failed yet again, and missed this part.

Moving on, if your personal preference that a balanced game is what defines fun, then I highly suggest Chess instead of miniature wargaming. I personally enjoy games with perfect imbalance, because it makes for a good rock, paper, scissors play style with the idea to actually outsmart your opponent with certain tricks and synergy from your list building. This keeps the game constantly evolving.
Example could be opponent A, playing a list that dominates. This leads to other players trying this list out, and it quickly becomes the new meta. But it also spawns the needs for a counter, now opponent B comes up with that counter, and opponent A suddenly starts to loose games, and so on and so on. A too "fair and balanced" game runs the risk of creating static strategies. Sure we have the dice to counter this, nothing beats luck right? But anyway. Anyways, thats my definition of fun, it needs not be the "best" rules to be fun, hell some of the most simplest of games with little internal balance are fun as hell, and vise versa.

In my opinion "balance" is when everyone has a chance to win the game based on their own decision making if they brought reasonably equipped lists.

40k is unbalanced because game outcome is largely determined by lists and dice rather than any decision making.

That said, balance is NOT required for fun. Personally I don't enjoy GW games, but that doesn't mean I should try and tell others they can't enjoy them.

There is no causal relationship between competitive balance and fun.

This ALSO means that competitively balanced games can be casually fun and in my opinion are much better casual games because there is less BS than you find in GW games and you don't have to sign a 10 page social contract agreeing exactly how competitive your lists will be to avoid stomping the other player. An example being that AoS is a nightmare to play with anyone you don't know intimately.

Also, Infinity terrain can be super cheap. Grab 2 of the terrain packs the company makes and you are good to go with surprisingly good looking and functional terrain.

40k is more balanced if you shrink it down to Kill Team sized or play Zone Mortalis, though there's still some broken units and weak stuff there as well. But when reduced to infantry choices then a lot of stuff gets playable and there's no giant stompy robots, vehicles with big guns, or superheavies to flatten your opponents.

Kill Team still have one large flaw, it's too borring for skirmish game.

In what way? The game system?

Well, the whole Kill Team ruleset is just light modification of core 40k system. And 40k system isn't designed for such scale.

The Heralds of Ruin Kill Team rules do a fairly good job of fleshing out the 40k system for skirmish rather than regular 40k scale. Models act more like individuals (save for the cheapest mooks, who can operate in groups of 5), terrain rules are more accommodating to the game's small size, and there's a lot more options thrown in for the standard trooper on the ground.

HoR are also pretty neat because they have Kill Team mini-Codexes, which cut out cheap ways to cheat in big models from GW KT and add back in a number of models that are normally exempted but otherwise fit, plus a lot of special wargear that's fluffy, flavorful, or adds some great utility. For example, Tau can take Sniper Drone teams, normally exempted because they're Heavy Support, and also give their leader a power sword equivalent wargear option so their team leader can function as a mini-Farsight if they want to.

Oh, I see, so your initial comment was strictly based on the subject that you clearly don't like GW.

Well if your a fanboy (or hater in this case), that simplifies things. See, I see myself as a gamer, because I like games. I have seasonal favorites, but that doesn't turn me in to a fanboy that hates the rest of the games I enjoy, because I know they all bring something different to the table.

>40k is unbalanced because of lists building

Well that can be said of a great deal of other wargames, just take warmahordes for instance.
The root to the problem in 40k is not list building, but the unofficial moral code that tells people "you can do this, but cant do that". Its the same moral that makes people call you a rule lawyering cunt if you play by the rules as written.
These things have a setting, and a community as well, but it is not accepted outside of this, because quickly you will find yourself without no one to play. 40k works fine as long as both players play by the same rules so to speak. It also suffers from individual codex authors and separate releases, just look at 30k. Balance incarnate, just remove everything not space marine.

Whats the best way to start X Wing.

2 core sets?

Do the original and TFA boxes work together as silly as that would look.

I think the guy is from the UK - I'd imagine most of his sales are ebook PDF ( tis what I got )

in the same thread if Horizon Wars from Osprey books, same kinda thing, mini agnostic

mybe take a gander at Traveller Striker ? Da Archivist has it, maybe get a free intro before spending some coinage ?

it's the Recommended Way - according to lots of experts at least. it's what I did then I just bought what I could from the wave releases when I could.

2 TIES purdy much = 1 X-Wing so it's pretty balanced - if you've got it unbalanced play a crappier pilot or more TIES, pretty easy to do once you get the idea of where you want to spend points.

>well written rules should go before "fun".
Having seen a few too many games develop an "Argument Phase" based on poorly written or conceived rules, I fully agree with this statement.

Balance is tricker, as it is an unwelcome concept in warfare. You don't want a fair fight; you want to WIN. Lying, cheating, subterfuge, psychology, and misdirection are part of real warfare, but are entirely unwelcome at the game table. Unless they work in your favor.

Yes, Robin (author of Gruntz) is in the UK. He does sell hardcopy rulebooks, but mostly operates via PDF.

Striker is a small action wargame that is, in many ways, an RPG in which you play the Captain,and all those troops on the field are your NPC followers. You give the orders, then determine if, when, and how well they are executed. The game uses psychology far more than modern miniatures gamers are accustomed to.
Also, you'll be designing, from scratch, any vehicles you want to use.

>Warmahordes
Caveat here. Privateer Press is fairly good at writing rules, but remains under-skilled at the "art of the rulebook." The MkII books are just too easy to lose rules in, even though the rules, when you find them, are usually well written and conclusive.

They are also notoriously bad at keeping the bloat under control. The solve this by cutting, burning and resetting the system, but still...

It's not a problem exclusive to PP. Corvus Belli's previous rulebooks have suffered from this problem as well because of poor organization and being translated from Spanish. Newest edition is more clear, but the main rulebook does suffer from some errors, though those are easily cleared up in the rules wiki.

CB also had some of this but, with the exception of a handful of named characters and the three Exrah models, they keep everything in the book and keep it of nominal utility. There is still at least one model per faction that doesn't really fulfill its role, but those sometimes get revised to help them fulfil their roles. I suspect a bunch are still on the back burner because they're slated for the next book release.

>your initial comment
was my first post in this thread, you are getting me confused with another user.

>hates the rest of the games I enjoy
I'm confused.

>40k works fine as long as both players play by the same rules so to speak

I think I said the same thing?
"have to sign a 10 page social contract agreeing exactly how competitive your lists will be to avoid stomping the other player."

Which Terrain packs do you recommend for Infinity?

If you're going super cheap and getting terrain packs from CB's store, just choose which aesthetic you like most since they're all identical save for pattern and print.

Otherwise, there's several dozen good companies that all want your cash in exchange for MDF terrain, which is all pretty good with some exceptions which are fabulous, but it'll cost you to outfit a moderately dense table.

This is the one game where papercrafting terrain actually works out nicely.

What if I wanted what he's having but I like historical wargaming?

If you have a decent printer, these are an option:

toposolitario.com/workshop/ikube.html

Might want to mod Mordheim to exclude more fantastical stuff. While I'm sure such a thing exists, I don't have any resources to share.

Still, mercenary companies were a thing historically, as were independent bandits and organized city crime syndicates. You could mix those up and set them in some alternate timeline foggy area or around an interesting time of strife.

Hell, even just gangs funded by wealthy or noble families fighting in the streets of a big city. Have them be Italian and be Montagues and Capulets, plus a bunch of other families. Better yet, House of Auditore, House of Barbarigo, House of Medici and the like from Assassin's Creed II & III. Italy has some cities to choose from, not least of which is Venice, city of complex architecture, winding streets, and meandering watery canals.

I have access to a commercial printer via the SO. Will definitely check this out.

I'm cheap as fuck mostly but i am willing to spend some on good quality.

I saw a papercraft pdf for a Maglev train on the infinity main site. That definitely looks sweet.

You can probably get away with spending a bit on a few larger centerpiece terrain pieces for your table alongside all the cheap stuff.

I've been to Venice before and if you can turn a blind eye to the tourist traps, it is such a gorgeous city. I can only recommend visiting to everyone - before it gets drowned.

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