/epg/ - Eclipse Phase General

Isn't a limit of +10 or +20 to using skills like that?

Cumulative I think you can have a maximum of +60 total modifiers to a test. The actual Complementary bonus is between +10 and +30 based on your skill level.

I'm pretty sure the Complementary skill rule is mostly for Knowledge skills, not active skills, so Computer science applies.

Even if it does work Active with Active, unless your GM is the biggest, cuddliest carebear in the world he should be giving a stern side-eye on some of those choices. Robotics or Implants should have jackall with understanding how to gain admin privileges in the software of a system - though you might roll them before hand to know a way to say, access computers in those things in the first place. Programming would only apply if you were actually coding something to use in this case.

Admin privileges to what system?

Forgot to mention Academics: Cryptography as well.

>Robotics or Implants should have jackall with understanding how to gain admin privileges in the software of a system
Agreed, unless said system is robotic or an implant in which case you might have an advantage, no?
>Programming would only apply if you were actually coding something to use in this case.
This doesn't make sense to me. Infosec is described as:
>Infosec is short for "information security." It encompasses training in electronic intrusion and counterintrusion techniques as well as encryption and decryption.
While Programming is described as:
>Programming is your talent at writing and modifying software code.
You should have a /better/ understanding of exploiting vulnerabilities if you have a good understanding of programming. That's how it works in real life too. I would also say that the Computer Science and Cryptography skills should factor into helping you out.

Additionally, what is the feasibility of a Quantum Computer implant?

>Admin privileges to what system?
Let's say it's just a regular computer system.

Programming would be used to produce the software tools used for electronic intrusion. Infosec is the skill with using those tools (mostly knowing when to use what)

/epg/, describe your commute

From dick to dick.

>Programming would be used to produce the software tools used for electronic intrusion
Would you
1. Allow someone to suddenly declare he's going to create +30 encryption, exploit, firewall, etc software?
2. What kind of bonuses would you give to the person for having the skills listed above when trying to do this?

>1. Allow someone to suddenly declare he's going to create +30 encryption, exploit, firewall, etc software?
That would take a long time and he would need to know what systems he's making the exploits for. It would also be extremely difficult to get a +30.

How viable would kidnapping people, or taking infugees and then psychosurgically altering them to be infallibly loyal to a group be for a merc corp? What if we forked them?

>Agreed, unless said system is robotic or an implant in which case you might have an advantage, no?

No, as described by the game, Hardware is used to physically bypass (as well as repair and mod) systems. You use it as an alternative to InfoSec, and it might be useful to set up an InfoSec test. Just because you know how to fix a robotic arm doesn't mean you know how to log in to the computer system that administers that robot arm.

As an alternative, you could rig a robotic arm to do something you wanted regardless of any attached software though. It might provide a bonus to other tests once you're actually in the system.

>You should have a /better/ understanding of exploiting vulnerabilities if you have a good understanding of programming.

Well, it's like said, if you're a real hacker you probably whip up a quality exploit or whatever software before you start running an InfoSec check. Software quality is actually accounted for in the modifiers on that test. Remember, Programming is an Active skill, it applies when you're actually doing something it says, but obtaining admin privileges does not require writing or modifying code. Your knowledge of exploits and defense techniques is covered by an appropriate knowledge skill.

> I would also say that the Computer Science and Cryptography skills should factor into helping you out.

And they probably would, this is how the Complementary rule works.

I mean, that's a thing you can do. You could certainly try to pay extra for that information, why not program them? Difficulty involved is up to the GM of course, but software quality is again, supposed to be counted in those tests if it applies.

Keep in mind, it's hardly sudden, you'll probably be at it subjective hours or days by most Task Action standards.

Possible, but prone to bugs. Never know how someone is going to take all that psychosurgery. Forking could compound.

>That would take a long time
Not if you follow the rules it doesn't.
>he would need to know what systems he's making the exploits for
Not according to the rules he doesn't.
>It would also be extremely difficult to get a +30.
Yes, which is why I asked what kind of complementary bonuses he would get given high levels in:
Programming, Academics: Computer Science, Academics: Cryptography, Hardware: Electronics, Hardware: Robotics, Hardware: Implants, Infosec, and Interfacing

I would think that he should get a +10 at least from the computer science knowledge, and depending on specific software he is designing he should get another +10 (like for the encryption software and having academics: cryptography)

>2. What kind of bonuses would you give to the person for having the skills listed above when trying to do this?
Academics: Cryptography would certainly help for writing the cyptography software. Some of the other stuff might help when the exploits are for the described systems, though I'm not sure when Hardware: Electronics might be helpful

>I would think that he should get a +10 at least from the computer science knowledge, and depending on specific software he is designing he should get another +10 (like for the encryption software and having academics: cryptography)

I mean, if you're gonna go digging around, capping the rules, maybe you should pop over to page 173 and look at the Complementary skill table?

its a standard strategy for shady opperations, and can be pretty reliable. On the other hand, psychosurgery is anything but infallible.

>look at the Complementary skill table?
So assuming I have a 61 Programming, Academics: Computer Science, and Academics: Cryptography, I get the full +60 modifier on my attempt to create a +30 level encryption/decryption software.

61 in computer science and infosec gives me another +60 for exploits.

Computer science and infosec/programming gives me a +60 for firewalls

Computer science and hardware: electronics gives me a +60 on sniffer and spoofer software.

Agree or disagree?

Mostly right. It's up to the GM anyway on what exactly applies. I'd personally probably split hairs on Hardware for something like say spoofing, since that also seems to be for faking computer commands, but eh, probably depends on what your end-goal for the hack is.

Literally what Firewall does if you start to question them.

There is a hard cap of +60 you can get detailed on page 115.

Also keeping in mind, having a 61+ native in multiple skills is slightly expensive, especially if you're not just being a prick and buying exactly that 61st point. Somebody with all those skills rated that high is basically an elite programmer and hacker of the highest order. Real wizard-class.

These rules are the worst for people who like to keep their skills at nice round numbers.

When task actions are for days or weeks, how many hours a day does it assume you're spending on it? 8? 16? 20? All 24?

>There is a hard cap of +60 you can get detailed on page 115.
I know that, and I said that in that post.

I'm talking about complementary skill bonuses.

Assuming I wanted to do the programming test to see if I can create the custom encryption software, let's say I have a programming skill of 50.

So you get a -30 for trying to create something so difficult, but your knowledge of computer science and cryptography gives you a +60 bonus, so you effectively have a +30 bonus to create that software, and thus need to roll 80 or under to create it.

That's all I wanted to clarify.

>Also keeping in mind, having a 61+ native in multiple skills is slightly expensive, especially if you're not just being a prick and buying exactly that 61st point.
You could do it in character creation easily if you wanted you character just to be a wizard tier super hacker.

Another question I had would be if I locked out a watchdog AI on a computer system I was trying to hack, I don't need to make any of the opposed rolls when I'm trying to do subversion type shit, right?

Also I would still like opinions on a quantum computer implant or portable device to crack public key encryption.

>>That would take a long time
>Not if you follow the rules it doesn't.
8 weeks is pretty long. You probably won't be finished in the same game session unless there's a big time cut.

>>he would need to know what systems he's making the exploits for
>It doesn't say so on this page therefore no such rule exists

You're the worst kind of rules lawyer. Exploit software exploits particular security holes.

>I would think that he should get a +10 at least from the computer science knowledge

Only in cases where you're trying to defeat specific algorithms as opposed to just back dooring or something.

No, you get up to +30 for complementary skills

Transhuman has rules for how mental speed or other things, and the Speed stat effect task actions. IIRC it's 10% off per extra complex action/point of speed above one, stacking additively and maxing at 90% time reduction. This also stacks additively with % time reduction with stuff like the Instinct sleight.

There are rules for making +30 exploit software, it's under the "Elite Exploits" sidebar. It takes a while though.

Those skill bonuses are really between you and the GM, so it doesn't really matter what we think. The way the skill system works out hacking basically ends up being a roll off most times though, and with those seemingly easy to access bonuses on both sides every ends up with a 99% anyway

You don't get to use more than 1 complementary skill at once.

>Another question I had would be if I locked out a watchdog AI on a computer system I was trying to hack, I don't need to make any of the opposed rolls when I'm trying to do subversion type shit, right?
Not unless someone is actively monitoring the system

>Also I would still like opinions on a quantum computer implant or portable device to crack public key encryption.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_key_distribution
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-quantum_cryptography

>No, you get up to +30 for complementary skills
>You don't get to use more than 1 complementary skill at once.
Nowhere in the book does it say this to my knowledge. If it does, please post a screencap.

>You're the worst kind of rules lawyer. Exploit software exploits particular security holes.
No, it's treated like an exploit package like dsploit or kali linux. It does not say or even imply that you need to design specific exploits for specific systems. You simply purchase or design software to use when you're doing this.

>wikipedia
If we were following real life, then qubits are a dime a dozen when you have quantum computers in large supply and can field quantum cryptography, and public key encryption is cracked in minutes via Shor's/Grover's algorithm alone, much less what has been developed in 10AF.

Rules under task actions assumes the character works 8 hours a day. If you work more you can adjust accordingly. Also every 10 MoS is -10% time.

>You could do it in character creation easily if you wanted you character just to be a wizard tier super hacker.

I mean, you can. That's my point, like, such a miracle-worker can be expected to have these high bonuses. But assuming average Aptitudes, that's still like 230 points in skills, split between active and knowledge, that's a decent chunk of your base to be the equivalent of a multiple Master's degree. That's also being an asshole with 61 in each skill, being more rounded to like 70 per skill would be way more points.

>Another question I had would be if I locked out a watchdog AI on a computer system I was trying to hack, I don't need to make any of the opposed rolls when I'm trying to do subversion type shit, right?

Yes, rolls stop being opposed if there's nothing left to actively defend the system.

>Also I would still like opinions on a quantum computer implant or portable device to crack public key encryption.

I think all gear is assumed medium sized unless otherwise noted, so you can probably carry a quantum computer. Hiding one in your body is likely to be tougher and more uncomfortable.

>That's also being an asshole with 61 in each skill, being more rounded to like 70 per skill would be way more points.
Getting all those skills to 70 from 60 is only another 160 points out of 1000.

>1000

Yeah, right, you're a wizard class hacker in a Flat. Sure. With no Rep and no money.

>Nowhere in the book does it say this to my knowledge. If it does, please post a screencap.
See , note that complenting skill is singular

>One person can write an entire exploit package from scratch in 2 weeks

lol

>No, it's treated like an exploit package like dsploit or kali linux.

Transhuman, page 108
>a character with
exploit software for fabber DRM

>If we were following real life, then qubits are a dime a dozen when you have quantum computers in large supply and can field quantum cryptography, and public key encryption is cracked in minutes via Shor's/Grover's algorithm alone, much less what has been developed in 10AF.
All of that is the case in EP. You have to realize that when they say qubits in the book they're refering to stable entangled qubits. The big issue with implementing quantum cryptography is that it doesn't work very well with out a hard line except at the shortest ranges, so classical cryptography does still get used.

eclipse-phase.wikispaces.com/Mesh Security

>Yeah, right, you're a wizard class hacker in a Flat
A menton costs like 40CP.
Rep isn't so incredibly expensive that you wouldn't be able to get those skills to 70.
Maybe he spent the money on extra implants.
I might just go create a character to prove this to you.

>note that complenting skill is singular
It does not explicitly say that you are only allowed one complementary skill. In fact that's just stupid. If you personally would rule that was in a game, then fine, but the book does not support that.

>exploit software for fabber DRM
Your one example of a description of how to allocate funds refutes the very clear explanation that intrusion/hacking software is treated as a general package in the CORE rulebook? I don't think so.

>All of that is the case in EP.
No it's not. The book explicitly states that it takes a quantum computer around a week to crack a public encryption key when they talk about breaking VPNs. It would take 2 minutes in real life.

>The big issue with implementing quantum cryptography is that it doesn't work very well with out a hard line except at the shortest ranges, so classical cryptography does still get used.
What? The issue is that the game enforces arbitrary restrictions on the amount of qubits. Quantum encryption is literally unbreakable by anything because of state changing.

So yesterday my friends and I were playing a new eclipse phase group. We were going to be a search and rescue/ scav team in the main belt. With a little financial help, I am now a 20 meter space dragon that eats small ships and habitats.
I used a neo-sperm whale body, modified to live in space. Added carapace armor - body modded into scales with heavy nanotats, skin coloration, and sub-dermal implants. With a strengthened skeleton, augmented muscles, and multiple cyber limbs, slitheroid mobility systems, and robotic wings equipped with jets I am now a dragon.
Two large torches implanted in my throat with fire proofing and very large cyberclaws make tearing open military craft a breeze.
I dont look quite as pic, more biological, you get the drift. Whats the weirdest/ coolest character you have made tg?

>the very clear explanation that intrusion/hacking software is treated as a general package in the CORE rulebook?

Where does it say that?

>It would take 2 minutes in real life.
Not if they're expecting quantum computers to be used against it.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-quantum_cryptography

>The issue is that the game enforces arbitrary restrictions on the amount of qubits.
So you have no fucking clue what a qubit reservoir is supposed to be then. Quantum computers in the game don't use them. Only QE comms do, which right-thinking GMs remove anyway.

Rep is cheap as fuck and money can be made later without expending Rez/CP. Dunno why the devs bothered distinguishing between the two. Also, you could just have them at 65. 65 shouldn't trigger autism nearly as badly as 61.

I hope you like vehicle-scale weapons used against you. You're asking for it.

So what happens if you want to go anywhere?

More I'm just criticizing your assumption you have 1000 points to spend on skills. You're still required to spend 700, but your particular formula is still over half that. A hacker might also want some other skills besides just "Do computer hacking real well". You haven't accounted for Interfacing at all, for instance, which is what you use when a test is required to use a computer system you're already in.

You can spend the 300 remaining on skills, and this is encouraged to round out, but you also maybe want to spend it on other things too. Like Moxie. Or useful traits. Or morphs. Or cash, so you can buy equipment to start with, since we haven't accounted for any rep or Networking skills.

See above about buying gear at start. Rep is pretty cheap but you still have to devote some points to it and Networking to actually utilize it. You're also going to burn rep fast if you use it to obtain everything.

>but your particular formula is still over half that.
Only if you assume that I'm staying at base attribute scores of 15 and not raising the ones that would actually be important to a character with this design concept.
>ou haven't accounted for Interfacing at all, for instance, which is what you use when a test is required to use a computer system you're already in.
Yes I did. I said: Programming, Academics: Computer Science, Academics: Cryptography, Hardware: Electronics, Hardware: Robotics, Hardware: Implants, Infosec, and Interfacing

>A hacker might also want some other skills besides just "Do computer hacking real well".
Sure, like shoot a gun competently, or get 40 in Fray or Perception which doesn't cost very much.
>Like Moxie. Or useful traits. Or morphs. Or cash, so you can buy equipment to start with, since we haven't accounted for any rep or Networking skills.
Like I said, a menton isn't that expensive, and neither are networking skills or rep.

Anyone can be poor. Even wizard hackers. I could just try to rob people through the mesh the first session if I really needed money that bad anyway.

i have run into vehicle scale weapons already, direct action doesnt like dragons - who knew. but i have 120 dur and dank pilot so its not too bad
i have hibernation, oxygen reserve, enhanced respiration, vacuum sealing, and a plasma rocket for long hauls

>i have hibernation, oxygen reserve, enhanced respiration, vacuum sealing, and a plasma rocket for long hauls
What if you need to be somewhere this year?

I think a vehicle-grade HEAP does 18d10+72 if I'm interpreting the wording right.

>Where does it say that?
Where it says you can buy exploit packages from people, or develop them, and it says nowhere that they are specific to X.

It doesn't even mention specificity besides application in the software section, and it's put in the Gear section which is generally full of multipurpose shit.

>Not if they're expecting quantum computers to be used against it.
Fair enough since the game has unlimited bandwidth and can send 2mb keys constantly without issue.

>Quantum computers in the game don't use them.
I don't know where it says this, but okay. Makes enough sense.

>Where it says you can buy exploit packages from Do you mean ? Because that most certainly doesn't say what you're claiming

>a hacker with the do-it-yourself ethic is likely going to want to design their own personalized applications, based on their playbook of closely guarded intrusion/counterintrusion methods
>modifying their own personal arsenals

Pay close attention to the words "playbook" and "arsenal."

Do you require every football coach to have a playbook against every team, or just a standard one that they use with their own customized plays?

"Every exploit must be designed for a single system and researched extensively" is just not supported by the book. It's a houserule, and that's fine, but it's still a houserule.

i ego-cast and ship my body like a normal person
good thing i haven't been hit by one of those yet, again we started this group yeterday

>rob people
An infomorph hacker in a ghostrider with a melee-competent mind-raping Async are a godly combo for stealing people's everything. For synthmorphs, the hacker is all that is needed, but an async can steal codes directly from the poor shmuck's head while the hacker covers everything up and transfers all of the assets into Extropian bank accounts.

Saving up for respirocytes as well?

repirocytes are nice

I really wanted to like Asyncs since I have an autistic fixation on psionic powers in games, but they're just so underwhelming in EP. You have to damage yourself, get right up next to someone who is going to stab you in your fucking face, and then touch them to do... less damage than if you just shot them with a pistol at that range.

I think it would be better if a few changes were made:
Remove the self damaging bit
Make most powers besides mind rape ranged, and increase the range to 15-20m before you start getting penalties
Make a new class in-between Epsilon and Gamma that has much more powerful abilities. These powers would damage you because of how powerful they are. Enough damage that even the heartiest of morphs will likely be incapacitated if they use more than 2-3 of these in a short (3-4 day) period.

Mindrape and Chi-sleight self-buffs are cool though.

Are penal troops still used in 10AF?

Why would they be? Bots would outperform them without anyone whining about 'crimes against humanity'.

Oh and the whole "start with 2-3 mental disorders" shit is beyond annoying unless you cheese your way around it, like taking "mute from trauma" and exclusively using taccomms and telepathy power to communicate with people, or OCD with some relatively negligible fixation or tic.

The idea of a schizophrenic Async is interesting but ultimately unplayable unless you allow the person playing it to start with antipsychotic medications that DON'T interfere with the psi abilities.

>ultimately unplayable
Stop being a whiny little munchkin bitch

>Has a player who took Schizophrenia as one of his async disorders

What you call unplayable, I call "entertaining".

>Stop being a whiny little munchkin bitch
I'm not being a munchkin. I'm being someone who has experienced being around untreated schizophrenic people in real life and they are incapable of doing the shit this game requires you to do. Going to go dismantle some TITAN tech X-threat with a schizophrenic Async? No fucking way he's going to do anything useful. Might even attack his team members because PSYCHOSIS is a big fucking problem.

Regardless of the mission, a true-to-life untreated schizophrenic is unusable. Comparable to your character breaking the maximum trauma threshold or whatever and the game just saying "you're gone forever." Until that schizo gets treatment, he is probably "gone forever."

If you're talking about my comments on psi in general, please explain how they aren't underwhelming and generally shit compared to just melting people with lasers or chain railguns. Yeah, Grok is pretty great, but the rest are just situationally useful or strictly inferior to something else with many drawbacks.

>just situationally useful
>Everything must be useful at all times
What a munchkin bitch.

>Regardless of the mission, a true-to-life untreated schizophrenic is unusable.
You do realize there are different degrees of schizophrenia, right? My ex's brother was schizophrenic and refused treatment and he was mostly functional.

Tell me what the advantage to being Async is then? Besides a few sleights, there are people who can do what you do, even the mindrape stealing encryption keys type thing, better, faster, and with no drawbacks. You can't out damage even a shit tier weapon with your offensive sleights. You can't incapacitate people. You can't do much of anything that's really WORTH the drawbacks of hurting yourself every time you use your powers AND having debilitating disorders AND being more prone to trauma.

Seriously, what are the advantages? Grok? Mindlink? Ego Sense? Is that it?

>You do realize there are different degrees of schizophrenia, right?
I know, but it gets worse over time. Trauma, which is common in this game, would expedite that worsening on a massive level. You could go from "mostly functional" to "needs to be in a psychiatric ward to be taken care of" very quickly depending on how much and what kind of trauma you experienced as a schizophrenic.

>Seriously, what are the advantages?
fun
>Trauma, which is common in this game, would expedite that worsening on a massive level.
You're assuming that the person in question is predisposed to mental illness rather than having it induced solely by trauma

Also, muses treat this sort of thing.
eclipse-phase.wikispaces.com/Maximizing Your Muse

>You're assuming that the person in question is predisposed to mental illness rather than having it induced solely by trauma
No, I'm telling you that schizophrenics exposed to severe trauma like, say, seeing your team mate get turned into pink mist by femtobots, will be MUCH worse for them than for an NT person.
>The most important skill your muse has is Academics: Psychology, which means it can act as a therapist to heal stress.
This won't really help with schizophrenia. Even places that require you to see a therapist/psychologist to see a psychiatrist don't make people experiencing psychosis fulfill that requirement. Psychosis isn't treatable by psychology, and trauma would probably set off a psychotic episode that could last days, weeks, etc.

If you downplay the effects of schizo and what kind of things could happen, then by all means go ahead, but really they should be useless on any mission that could possibly result in trauma or extreme stress. A psychotic Async is going to be a problem even if they're not very powerful.

>100 years with no advancements in psychological care
kay

>kay
>disease characterized by deformations in the brain and neurotransmitter issues
>treatable by psychological care
Le no

Schizophrenia isn't anxiety. You can't brainwash yourself into making your brain stop being physically wrong.

Isn't that what psychosurgury is for?

>Isn't that what psychosurgury is for?
As far as I understand it, psychosurgery in this game is the literal rewiring of the brain. This would fix the malformed brain structures that result in schizophrenia.

So yes, but psychosurgery seems like it's not very reliable unless you find a skilled psychosurgeon.

Also if you fuck up then the schizo experiences even more stress and is even worse off. It's a dangerous game.

>What's resleeving?

Isn't why they do it on a fork and observer in x60 simulspace first?

To my unerstanding of it, resleeving remakes the neuron connections.

Shit isn't that easy, "munchkin." The game implies that the disorder is written into the neural mapping associated with your ego. Ever morph you resleeve into will have their brain rewritten to give you schizophrenia, and I guess the process is similar in cyberbrain's via brain emulation.

>Isn't why they do it on a fork and observer in x60 simulspace first?
Yeah, but what's your WIL going to be? 10, 15 maybe? Surgeon has to be pretty skilled to make it reliably effective.

Oh shit nevermind I read that wrong. Psychosurgery is effective on people without high WIL scores. I'm retarded.

Yeah, so those neurotransmitter issues? Gone. That's half your problem already. Genetic components? Also gone.

Read about hyperbrights and tell me that your morph has nothing to do with brain function.

>Yeah, so those neurotransmitter issues? Gone. That's half your problem already. Genetic components? Also gone.
No, they're not. The nanobots REBUILD the deformed structures responsible for the neurotransmitter issues and everything else.

Hyperbrights, Mentons, Fausts, etc all have an effect on brain function and limits, but they don't just remove everything that's wrong with you.

>structures responsible for the neurotransmitter issues
>because clearly that's entirely a structural issue

It's now clear that you learned all of this from a pamphlet.

>but they don't just remove everything that's wrong with you.

Quit making shit up. No one said that. Genefixing just makes all of this stuff more manageable and means it's not gong to happen without stress.

>It's now clear that you learned all of this from a pamphlet.
Are you stupid as shit or what? Schizophrenia is a structural issue. Can outside events have issues on your neurotransmitter levels? Yes, of course. We can treat those diseases with therapy. Sometimes those neurotransmitter issues are based almost entirely on structural issues though, and that's when therapy is only partially effective.

Schizophrenia has MUCH more going on than just dopamine and serotonin issues. Certain structures in the brain of schizophrenics are reduced in size or enlarged, for example, that has effects beyond neurotransmitter imbalances.

>Quit making shit up. No one said that. Genefixing just makes all of this stuff more manageable and means it's not gong to happen without stress.
Also yes, he did say that. He thinks resleeving into a new brain will just remove the malformed structures and chemical issues and that's wrong.

If you have schizophrenia then the genetics that predisposed you to it have already done their job. You can't genefix it away anymore. It's written into your ego and it will be copied EVERY TIME until you remove it.

If resleeving fixed schizophrenia then you would also lose all your memories, your personality, everything about you, because it's just slapping a consciousness with your label on it into a morph with an entirely different brain structure. You can't have your own memories and personalities without the distinct and unique neural pathways associated with YOU.

Neurotransmitter problems are not a structural issue and schizophrenia is not entirely a structural issue. As such, having basic biomods is going to dramatically improve manageability.

You can have addiction as a morph trait

>Neurotransmitter problems are not a structural issue
Yes, they are, and I'm tired of explaining this people so I'm just going to copy paste the shit from the last time I had this argument with someone:
depression
karger.com/Article/Abstract/284698
jneurosci.org/content/18/18/7394.full
>Enhanced radioligand binding of an agonist to inhibitory serotonin-1A autoreceptors in the human DR provides pharmacological evidence to support the hypothesis of diminished activity of serotonin neurons in suicide victims with major depression
sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006322397004848
anxiety
psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1998-11070-001
>Serotonergic pathways may play a role in social anxiety disorder, as shown by the clinical effectiveness of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors
>Dopaminergic function and striatal dopamine uptake appear to be reduced in social anxiety disorder.
sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006322306007025
>schizophrenia is not entirely a structural issue
Before it manifests? Yes. After? It is entirely structural. Genetics MEANS structural.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_schizophrenia#Genetic_candidates

>You can have addiction as a morph trait
I don't really know how they explain away this one considering that physical dependence is still largely based in the brain.

>Genetics MEANS structural.
No, it doesn't. chemical pathways are also heavily influenced by genetics.

Does resleeving do the entire brain or only the grey matter?

>I don't really know how they explain away this one considering that physical dependence is still largely based in the brain.
It's entirely possible to be psychologically addicted to a substance that isn't physically addictive in and of itself. They're so used to being under the influence that the idea of going without terrifies them. Marijuana, for example, isn't physically addictive, but I've known people who literally cannot function if they're not at least a little high. That's an ego addiction.

Does an octopus even have grey matter?

>chemical pathways are also heavily influenced by genetics.
HOW THE FUCK DO YOU THINK THOSE CHEMICAL PATHWAYS ARE FORMED??? GENETICS ARE THE BLUEPRINT FOR DEFECTIVE STRUCTURES THAT RESULT IN DEFECTIVE CHEMICAL PATHWAYS. Fucking christ man. Do you think genetics are just some magic force that works without having a physical basis?

>Does resleeving do the entire brain or only the grey matter?
It takes the brain inside the morph already and floods it with nanobots that "rewire" the neural pathways in the morph's brain to match your Ego's own neural map, among other more complicated things like memory storage and transfer.

>It's entirely possible to be psychologically addicted to a substance
I guess this makes sense if the previous owner of the morph had been heavily using drugs, but psychologically addicted still makes me think that it shouldn't happen unless your Ego was also psychologically addicted to something. It's not like the muscles or other parts of the body are dependent on the drug, or the testes shut down because the previous owner was a roider. Being addicted to something physically (as in an opiate addiction) or psychologically (as in weed) has to happen in the brain, and the rewiring during resleeving SHOULD remove that unless you have that issue yourself.

Oh, so by structure you meant chemical composition and gene expression as well, rendering the word so broad as to be meaningless?

Then sure, it's a structural problem. Psychosurgery and resleeving don't change the DNA though, so your argument is invalid.

Here's how it works in normal, 21st century humans:
>be born with shit genes
>genes cause certain structures to develop
>these structures are fucked, because shit genes
>these fucked structures cause problems, like schizophrenia
Yes, gene expression plays a part besides developing those structures and keeping them intact. You could say that genetics is the root cause of it, sure, but the structures that result from those genetics (defective NMDA receptors, etc) are the actual mechanism by which schizophrenia operates.
Chemical composition is solely a function of those structures, which is a function of gene expression, which is a function of genetics.

>Psychosurgery and resleeving don't change the DNA though, so your argument is invalid.
No, they don't. Psychosurgery removes the broken structures and replaces them with the correct ones, and resleeving just rewrites your brain into another. Should there be conflicts because of better DNA? Probably. I'd imagine the structures would still function improperly, but not as improperly as in someone without perfect DNA.

The DNA isn't going to just fix the broken structures. It's far, far too late for that to happen. The DNA will result in different chemical/protein levels that may improve the functioning of the person with the disease, but shit like enlarged or diminished parts of the brain won't just be fixed.

If you want to rule in your game that resleeving fixes all disorders because of super DNA then go ahead.

Looking at the way her feet are set up, do you bother with any sort of footwear at all or is it pointless? Do you suppose there are desinger foot gloves made by Gucchi and Prada?

Ongoing gene expression is important, which you would know if you had taken even high school level biology from a decent school. If your genetics suddenly change, chemical pathways will change too.

>the structures that result from those genetics (defective NMDA receptors, etc)
Even if those receptors did stick around forever (far from it), they still wouldn't be something that gets carried over when resleeving.

>The DNA isn't going to just fix the broken structures
I still can't believe that you're calling individual proteins structures when talking about the brain as a whole, but the brain is constantly rebuilding itself and improved genetics will result in fairly rapid improvement in neural pathways.

>If you want to rule in your game that resleeving fixes all disorders because of super DNA then go ahead.
Once again, neither I nor anyone else said that. Only that basic biomods and genefixing mean that your claims about debilitating psychoses are don't fully carry over into EP. I suspect you don't care about that though because it doesn't fit your narrative.

>Only that basic biomods and genefixing mean that your claims about debilitating psychoses are don't fully carry over into EP
Once again, you're wrong, and even Posthuman says you're wrong. Houserule as you wish, though.
>Ongoing gene expression is important
Which I acknowledged.
>Even if those receptors did stick around forever (far from it), they still wouldn't be something that gets carried over when resleeving.
Yes they fucking would for the millionth god damn time. If your brain is uploaded while you have malformed structures, then those malformed structures are going to be wired into the new morph's brain, because that's how the book says it fucking works. It's an exact copy of your brain at the time of uploading.
>but the brain is constantly rebuilding itself and improved genetics will result in fairly rapid improvement in neural pathways.
It won't rebuild entire structures regardless of gene expression. That's not how it works. It won't fix the altered neural circuits associated with schizophrenia. It won't fix the enlarged lateral ventricles or the shrinkage of the frontal cortex and temporal lobes. Even treating the disease with antipsychotics that combat the fucked up structures responsible for schizophrenia DON'T FIX THE REDUCTION IN BRAIN VOLUME. Better genes won't fix that either. Only a complete rewiring could possibly hope to do that, which is why you need psychosurgery to get rid of it.

>You're wrong because of this sidebar which says that schizophrenics are more functional that I described
>Which I acknowledged.
You mentioned it but everything else you said ignored it.
>Proteins are wired in
You don't even understand how brain metaphors work. The axons and dendrites are the wires.

Leaving that aside, uploading doesn't create a perfect copy of the brain. Evidence: octomorphs, attribute bonuses, and synthmorphs.
>It won't rebuild entire structures regardless of gene expression.
Proteins are replaced quite regularly. Please take a biology class.

>Looking at the way her feet are set up, do you bother with any sort of footwear at all or is it pointless?
The sole purpose of footwear is to reduce/eliminate wear and tear on the foot itself. No matter how weird the foot is, wear and tear is something you want to mitigate.

Even horses get shoes. I promise you that every possible foot would get a similar treatment (and I bet many walker synthmorphs use replaceable or replenishable rubber soles for every surface contact point).

>Proteins are replaced quite regularly. Please take a biology class.
And yet you ignore the part where I tell you that "fixing" the shit responsible for broken structures and reduced brain volume does not actually result in rebuilding those structures.
>Leaving that aside, uploading doesn't create a perfect copy of the brain.
Yes it does. Evidence: The fucking rulebook.
>You don't even understand how brain metaphors work. The axons and dendrites are the wires.
What the fuck are you even talking about? Schizophrenia has altered neural circuits. Better genes won't suddenly just rewrite those into the correct way. Protein expression isn't going to fix the broken structures like I already said.
>You mentioned it but everything else you said ignored it.
I didn't ignore it. I said that better genes might result in better gene expression which might result in a more functional schizophrenic than one without better gene expression. It won't completely rid you of the disease and it won't make it any less debilitating.
>You're wrong because of this sidebar which says that schizophrenics are more functional that I described
Yes, "total break from reality" sounds very different and much more functional than I described. "difficulty communicating coherently" (glossolalia/word salad) is definitely a more functional feature than I described. "schizophrenic characters are only marginally functional and only for short periods of time" is completely and totally different than what I described.

You don't understand the game (can't read excerpts from the book)
You don't understand mental illness (chemical imbalances are not structural issues)
You don't understand the brain (gene expression will fix malformed structures)

Why are you even arguing?

>And yet you ignore the part where I tell you that "fixing" the shit responsible for broken structures and reduced brain volume does not actually result in rebuilding those structures.
You clearly aren't using the word structures consistently.
>Yes it does. Evidence: The fucking rulebook.
Restructuring neural structure and connections is not equivalent to reproducing the original brain on a molecular level.
>Schizophrenia has altered neural circuits. Better genes won't suddenly just rewrite those into the correct way. Protein expression isn't going to fix the broken structures like I already said.
Said circuits also function differently depending on gene expression.
>I didn't ignore it.
You did, because it affects how neurons work, not just how they get arranged.

>You don't understand mental illness (chemical imbalances are not structural issues)
I fucking said this to you and you insisted that neurotransmitter problems are structural in origin, so I changed my definition of structural for you, you stupid cunt.