How would you like your D&D? - DESTROYED

Why do people always consider even more crunchy, overblobbed systems as alternatives for D&D instead of the fucking contrary?

I basically make it 4e.

micro-transactions, digital only
1 book for each level of each class, only $1.99 each
pay to unlock new enemies, $0.99 each or 6 for $4.99
DRM and proprietary dice or something

But user, many anons like 4e.

Now that's beyond evil.

>But user, many anons like 4e.

Okay, that's true. I'll give a serious answer.

4th edition will be the starting point because 4e almost killed D&D financially and drove me personally away from it. BUT in order to make sure that 4e's own fanbase doesn't come back, I will make all classes purposefully completely unbalanced, so the one arguable benefit of 4e rules is lost. I'll make the classes every bit as soulless and shitty and stupid and boring and conceptually void and metagamey and composed of nothing but numbers and abilities as in 4e, but I will also arbitrarily make some classes thousands of times, millions of times better than others so that the game becomes absolutely unplayable for anyone. And THAT will be an utterly irredeemable game.

That made me wonder... How would AoS of D&D look like?

>I'll make the classes every bit as soulless and shitty and stupid and boring and conceptually void and metagamey and composed of nothing but numbers and abilities as in 4e

Why were you so angry that 4e had D&D be an actual game? It's like the RPG side of tabletop gaming is terrified that their game is a game and not some kind of pen and paper virtual reality experience.

Just reprint 4E.

>Not wanting to live in a p&p virtual reality for a few hours every week.

Take 90% of the suggestions from the other thread and actually apply them. Nearly everything was awful.

Veeky Forums couldn't design their way out of a wet paper sack.

>Why were you so angry that 4e had D&D be an actual game

With "actual game" do you mean boardgame? Some kind of strategic game of dice and figurines where you hack other figurines with your figurine according to roll of the dice and your one-use bonus abilities written on cards? You mean that kind of shit, correct?

Well, here's the thing. D&D is supposed to be an RPG. And RPGs are superior to boardgames. They're a higher form of being, a master race, the true lords of game-kind with manifest destiny to rule, while board games and strategy games and card games are all sub-RPG mongrels compared to them. It follows from this, that an RPG who mimics a board game or assimilates any elements of a board game debases himself, while when the reverse happens it is commendable that the awful beast tries to behave like a man.

HAYL FREEFORM

This.
I cannot understand fags who prefer to just sit and roll dice while moving miniatures on the table and cutting goblins above that.
I mean, board games are fun too, but you don't need to overcomplicate them with improvised arbitrary elements and rules that take few books to explain.
Board games are fun, RPGs are fun, but they don't mix, and hybrids between them are abberant monstrosities.

And 3.5 flat-out said in the DM's guide it was designed to be played with a map grid and miniatures, to the point of making diagonal movement with them retarded because muh autisms.
I fail to see your point.

RPGs are just wargames and boardgames where you pretend you're one of the people you're controlling. Only their fans seem to think that just because they play their special kind of pretend, the rules can be as clunky as possible. Everything that makes RPGs "superior" can be done by anyone playing anything, so you might as well play something with good rules attached to it.

It's no wonder so many RPG fans are into anime. It's the same kind of escapism they actually want, only they don't have to deal with other people like in an RPG.

The base game is very simple. Four races, four classes, a little bit on how to play, and a smattering of level 1 spells for the wizard and cleric. Then comes the booster packs. Spell and feat booster packs for each class, class option sets to make Rangers, Warlocks, etc also supplemented by their own booster packs, magic item booster packs, extra race template booster packs, setting-based booster packs, anything you can think of placed in card format and shoved in a tiny foil sleeve to be drawn out and put into your D&D character. No errata as well, everything is allowed RAW.

It was true... WHEN D&D 1E CAME OUT FOR THE FIRST TIME

Yes, but 4E is boring. The powers are bland and the combat is repetitive. Just take that shit away and improvise.

Good rules for game of pretend are ones that don't steal time and attention of participating players from actual "pretend" part for throwing dice, moving miniatures, thinking about how to efficently use mechanics and actuallly memorizing all the shit from 600-pages long handbooks.
Trying to play a boardgame while playing an RPG is like trying to read a book while jogging.
Both are fine on their own, but you'll get better results if you do this separately and don't disperse your focus between two separate things with little relation to each other.

Enforce heavy stat changes due to stature, gender, and body shape using the average human male as the standard. want an orc female? She'll be -2 str rather than -4 as orcs have +2 racisl bonus to str. They also get -2 to Cha across the board. Gnomes? Well shit thats -4 str just because you're a fucking midget and your arms and muscles are that much smaller? Female gnome? Shit. Thats like -6 str at least. Oh and all women get -1 Wis, -2 Int, Con, but +2 Cha along with -4 str.

In todays atmosphere socially speaking this would essentially be committing franchise suicide and only autists who actually say these are good and accurate guidelines would play.

>Yes, but 4E is boring. The powers are bland and the combat is repetitive.

You mean compared to "Poke it with a sword repeatedly or let the Wizard handle it?"

>powers are bland
>getting up in a monster's face and smashing it one when it tries to move past you
>napalming entire areas
>bland

Also
>having clear and concise rules for combat to prevent people from getting butthurt
>NAH YOU DON'T NEED THAT SHIT, LET'S GO MOTHER-MAY-I INSTEAD

You are the cancer killing RPGs

>A racist/sexist post to entice some kind o flame war
>ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I wonder what kind of game Veeky Forums plays. I've never had wizards ruin my game.

Disversity Dungeons, heard about this?

I'd give 5e magic item treatment to all rules. All classes are the same, and get common, uncommon, rare and legendary abilities (not too many because class abilities are supposed to be rare). There are no descriptions so you shoud think them up yourself. Now when your party is ready, the combat rules are changed - now you have to roll your d20 and you achieve a common, uncommon, rare or legendary outcome of your actions. They aren't described in the book so that you can think them up yourself. Now, after combat is over you probably want to loot enemy equipment. There are uncommon, common, rare...

I was actually being serious. There's a huge emphasis in hobby and gaming industries right now centered around female achievement and inclusion in what was originally viewed as male only. If you made something so blatantly sexist and possible racist and shoved it on a worldwide known franchise that before was breaking down social walls it would instantly kill the franchise in an irreversible manner. Every attempt afterwards to go in any other direction would look like an attempt at burying evidence and admitting you fucked up which would be worse than just disappearing and being forgotten.

Veeky Forums automatically assumes everythign takes place in a world where GM's are all ultrapemissive and there isn't anything to mitigate the spells wizards can take, like rules.

Yeah, because 4e was such a huge success right?

Also:
>napalming entire areas

There was nothing like this in 4e. All I remember from 4e was taking forever to kill some CR 2 monster shit.

Enjoy your deal x damage to 1 enemy or x/2 damage to area.

everytime I see someone on Veeky Forums say "I've worked on a few games in my day" or something similar I picture the most delusional neckbeard, and I see it regularly.

Then clearly the answer is to move away from any crunchy mechanics whatsoever, and create a rule-set that enhances the free flow of "pretend". D&D as it is is exactly the sort of half-way you're describing, currently it's a sub-par wargame that people pretend around.

And the Wizard always have the best spells for every occasion, like some kind of Mana-Batman.

>I was actually being serious.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

You're putting me to sleep bro.

>And RPGs are superior to boardgames. They're a higher form of being, a master race, the true lords of game-kind with manifest destiny to rule, while board games and strategy games and card games are all sub-RPG mongrels compared to them.
Impossible to tell if you're a God-Tier troll or the saddest person on Veeky Forums.

To thoroughly destroy D&D, I would start taking Veeky Forums seriously.

>Then clearly the answer is to move away from any crunchy mechanics whatsoever, and create a rule-set that enhances the free flow of "pretend".

I believe that 5e does this. It's not a perfect system but you can easily spin it around and call some improvised rolls.

Veeky Forums as a whole or angry spergs that cannot be satisfied?

>Yeah, because 4e was such a huge success right?
It outsold 3 and 3.5. WotC have stated that every edition of D&D they've released so far has outsold the previous editions they've done.

You are completely wrong. He's a shit-tier troll AND the saddest person on Veeky Forums,

>BUT in order to make sure that 4e's own fanbase doesn't come back, I will make all classes purposefully completely unbalanced, so the one arguable benefit of 4e rules is lost.
Call it "Essentials" then?

I'd imagine as a whole would make it worse. You'd have shit like
Where you get opposing opinions all over the place making it impossible for the game to function without several doctorates and day long debates and several scientific studies.

D&D started out as an expansion to a wargame

Unfortunately, the angry spergs dominate Veeky Forums to the point where the whole thing is a wreck. I see Veeky Forums as the /b/ for geeks. I enjoy it more when I frame it that way.

And PF outsold 4e. That means people prefered the previous edition.

And humans started out as an expansion to apes

Compayed to "how much do I power attack for this round" and "let the wildshaped druid handle it"

>Neanderthals were the splatbook of mankind.

Only after Essentials, which was an attempt to capitulate to fans of the previous edition. PF ended up doing that better, so of course it was going to outsell Essentials.

People prefer Star Wars to Harry Potter, but that doesn't mean Harry Potter isn't successful. Paizo also has readily available pdfs and releases an adventure every month. They are much smarter at selling a game than WotC is, even if their game is dogshit compared to every WotC edition.

See this shit? This is whats wrong with the videogaming industry. You get a nice bit of dlc and suddenly BLAM! You find out you gotta buy the next 3 that expand on the original DLC and shit will leave off on a cliff hanger till they pop out the second game with more or less the same business scheme.
Back in my day we went from single cell to multicellular and that shit was free. It wasn't even a patch or DLC just a fucking update.

Again, I'm sorry if the 3rd edition touched you bad places but it's still more successful than that boring-ass game that was 4e.

>I use x on the monster and deal 210 damage
>Ok. The monster attacks with y and you're slowed. Also take 33 damage.
>Ok.

The excitement!

I would make it pathfinder mixed with dungeon world.

What the fuck is "overblobbed" even supposed to mean, it's not even a word.

>People prefer Star Wars to Harry Potter, but that doesn't mean Harry Potter isn't successful.

Except that I'm comparing two similar things here. It's like saying people prefer the old SW movies better than the new ones.

>I attack it.
>Ok. Roll damage.
>I did 14 damage.
>Ok.
And that's every class without spells, yay!

There is straight up no difference between that and how you would describe an attack in the previous edition, except the rules were clunkier. Every RPG is going to be bad when you describe what you're doing in just mechanics. If describing an attack using only 3.5/3.X's rules excited you, you might be better off playing a good wargame.

Make 3.5, remove the spell lists, have the casters improvise for spells,

That doesn't change the fact that 4e was successful. It wasn't the MOST successful, but it made money, it got people into the hobby, and it still has fans.

>I feint
>I grapple
>I pin
>I trip

Every fighter at my games of 3e were very into maneuvers.

Don't blame me if your games were crap.

All of those are trap options compared to just attacking.

Except you're comparing D&D 4E essentials, a 4.5 that tried to walk back some of 4e's changes to appeal to alienated 3.X fans to Pathfinder, a game that literally replicated 3.X's rules. You think it's a demonstration of superiority and preference when it was really just better marketing.

>it still has fans.

So does The Phantom Menace, but most people don't want to see The Phanton Menace II Eletric Boogaloo.

In my opinion, 4e was a mistake and considering the attitude of the publisher, writer and most of the fans, I can back it up.

No, they fucking aren't. Specially if you have some feats or fighting as a team.

Don't go all braindead on me, son.

>implying I wouldn't prefer to see another Phantom Menace instead of the dogshit we actually got

>Specially if you have some feats or fighting as a team.
By taking feats that improve maneuvers, you're missing out on feats that improve dpr or survivability. Thus further making them trap options.

>fighting as a team
And by that you mean having any caster worth a fuck render your shitty trips or grappling (fucking seriously? The grapple rules are shite and always have been shite) entirely pointless by just blinding the enemy or sending them to sleep.

Have fun being battlefield cleanup, faggot

Like every fucking controller-type class in 4e is centered on napalming entire areas or shoving enemies down pits, learn to read

I'm literally who that user is arguing with an you're a tasteless idiot.

Scoot the burbs?

I can find more good things to say about TPM than TFA. Learn to deal with the fact not everyone liked Playing it Safe and Shitting on Established Lore: the Movie

The only thing TPM does right are soundtrack and world building. TFA is superior in every other respect.

Certain things about 4E were a mistake, and almost none of them had anything to do with mechanics. We need to, as a group, admit that the biggest problem people had with 4E was that it was too transparent and too well formatted and just move the fuck on.

That and they were maybe a bit too savage. Looks like the detractors are still butthurt.

Ok guys, 4e is great. And you can't play non-casters in 3.pf.

>soundtrack
>world building
>fight choreography
>working in the expanded universe because fuck you, we wouldn't have Coruscant without it
>actually making us give a fuck
>a villain who isn't laughable and can handily account for himself in a fight instead of struggling against an untrained stormtrooper who likely never even saw a lightsaber before
>characters that weren't Mary Sue bullshit, with actual explanations of why they can do (x thing) so good

The biggest problem with 4e is that it was weird. The DMG actually advise us to wire plot to a succesion of combat encounters.

>But that what D&D is!

No. It fucking isn't. It's not some kind of 'art' or supreme game, but you can fuck about with narrative in D&D. A lot of possible adventures won't work on 4e.

Jesus! Have you watched Phantom Menace recently? It's boring GARBAGE! Being boring is the worst sin you can do in an action fantasy movie!

Contrarianfags are the worst!

>it didn't have anything I recognised so it's boring
Nice subjective opinion faggot

Switch to the system used by Warhammer RPGs

>it has a bunch of irrelevant boring shit that gets thrown out of the window after 30 minutes of movie
>IT'S GREAT!

Nice subjective opinion faggot

>4th edition will be the starting point because 4e almost killed D&D financially
Yeah, it would be funny to 'destroy D&D' by making people angry about good game design...wait, are you serious?

>make a thread about shitting up dnd
>no op, it's 4e hate thread
>no one asks what kind of evil outsider is that artopode

Not a biased opinion at all, then. No sir. Not a single grain of salt to be found in this entire post.

Your shit's all retarded and your post contradicts itself like six times.

Separating the mechanical from the narrative was the best fucking thing 4e did because it meant that the game was no longer held back by attempting to (poorly) emulate 'fantasy realism' while the narrative was no longer being choked to death by nonsensical mechanics and poorly thought out social rules.

You don't fucking get to reinvent what the phrase 'RPG' means just because you profess to a fanatical hatred of a single example that exists within that genre. That is not how it works. Fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

>evil outsider
>not Lawful Good

Hire guy from pic related to write rules.

>Sapienses
>Eldars
>Darfs
>Leprekeks
>Quarterlings
>Demos
>Winged guys
>Half-orcs are not a core race

It was a natural progression after 3.5 emphasized combat to such an extent that the core rules felt like they published mainly Combat & Tactics.

AD&D, towards the tail end of 1E and for most of 2E, was the only time where they really tried to be narrative, with 3.0 still keeping some of it.

Aaaaah! The wet, hot, ass-pain of 4rries.

Like lemonade on a hot summer's day.

> Hi. I've decided DPR outweighs fun but now I will complain about my lack of fun.

And now the rest of the assholes just like this asshole will leap off their suddenly bleeding assholes to become defensive assholes.

Runequest
Savage Worlds
Fantasy Age
BRP
A Song of Swords