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Question: What is the level of heroism that you prefer in your games? Are your characters struggling against the world that they live in or just cynically scraping to get by?
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>What is the level of heroism that you prefer in your games?
There are no heroes left in man. I don't want heroes, I want regular people reacting to the unbelievable, I want their weird human hang ups to come into play, I don't want them to be played as too savvy and aware / accepting of what's going on like most players tend to do it.
I want to see people who make mistakes because they're scared, or who run rather than fight in most situations. That's why I stopped running games for groups that were mostly Shadowrun vets and stuck to storygamers and Call of Cthulhu players. They're the ones you can count on to play personal horror games properly.
It feels like a copout to say "an average amount", so let me try to clarify:
I don't go out of my way to create a heroic tone for my games. It's a world where people make good and bad choices for reasons that made sense to them at the time, and the consequences that would arise. If someone does something that'll drastically affect their world for the better, however, I'll give it to them. More often than not, they earned it after the obstacles I throw at them.
You can try to be a hero, but at massive personal cost.
It is a horror setting, y'know.
Chen.
You are currently doing a deplorable job of creating good faith for people interested in Mage 2e. Rather than go, "I apologize, but I am currently busy sorting through the copious amounts of errata and FAQ questions I have already been given. In time, you might see your concerns addressed by the errata or the FAQ," you indignantly cry, and I quote:
>Today's bullshit has just pushed me beyond the point of "you can wait and see if it gets answered in the final book or the initial faq."
If you are leaving your game open to criticism, you should be prepared to take it from people who have just picked up the game a few days ago and started to go through its mechanics.
>He's the one who broke 4e before it was even released, and created a build that through a rather spurious reading of RULES AS WRITTEN made a character that can take a billion attacks
The 4e build in question was fully legal, down to the point wherein an official errata had to be issued to repair it. That was for the best.
>When you choose to apply substantial spell factors, YOU ARE NO LONGER CASUALLY CASTING THE SPELL.
In that case, the mage *wants* to take substantial spellcasting penalties so that they can bring in their Yantra bonuses and spellcasters. As long as they have 5 successes to work with, the chances of failure are very, very slim.
5 dice: 83.19% chance of success
4 dice: 75.99% chance of success
3 dice: 65.7% chance of success
2 dice: 51% chance of success
1 die: 30% chance of success
Final chance of failure: ~0.21%
Is this an actual, confirmed piece of errata, then?
"A mage ALWAYS takes the penalty for successive attempts on spellcasting, even if they are under neither time constraints nor pressure"?
This would actually be a reasonable rule, although again, 5 dice is enough to practically ensure a success and only a ~21% chance of failure.
wew lad
Honestly I'm glad your getting paid Mage 2E is a fantastic book that fixed every problem I ever had with Mage 1E.
Although I did have exactly two problems with two spells. I already question it in the FAQ, so I'll just wait patiently for that.
>It literally is in the book.
It is not, in fact, in the book as written.
Mage: The Awakening 2e, page 117: "Sometimes characters desire to cast spells or create effects that should be easy and require little risk or effort from the mage. Often these spells are effects that the mage creates on a regular basis, and the risk of failure is small and has little to no impact on the drama of the story. Determining spell factor penalties and Yantra bonuses for these kinds of spells is cumbersome. In these cases, just have players roll Gnosis + Arcanum. Success on the roll equals a successful casting. If the player wanted to affect multiple subjects, or create a large effect with the spellcasting, then the number of success may determine the number of subjects or the size of an area affected by the spell effect. For example, if a mage wanted to revive all the dead roses in a garden, she could roll Gnosis + Life and each success would equal a 5 meter radius of revived roses."
Mage: The Awakening 2e, page 214: "Successive Attempts: When you fail a roll, you may be able to try again. If time is not an issue and your character is under no pressure to perform, you may make successive attempts with your full dice pool. In the far more likely situation that time is short and the situation is tense, each subsequent attempt has a cumulative –1 die penalty — so the third time a character tries to break down the door that’s keeping her inside a burning building, her roll has a –2 die penalty. Successive attempts do not apply to extended actions."
Either there is no penalty for spells cast in a situation with neither time constraints nor pressure, or the book is wrong and DaveB should issue errata to repair that.
And, from the look of , it seems that DaveB actually will issue errata for this.
Please. PLEASE. Shut up. You're the fucking worst. You're worse than Carmilla at his worst and Hentai Larp-chan PUT TOGETHER.
I dunno, by now Carmilla would have gone off on a rant about Bud Light, cigarettes and their 'GTA inspired' game. All those things always get a chuckle out of me, it's like he's a low-rent version of RPGPundit.
Aren't Carmilla and Hentai Larp-chan the same person? Cause boy do they seem to be at times.
>You are currently doing a deplorable job of creating good faith for people interested in Mage 2e.
Fuck off, Touhoufag. You are literally incapable of good faith. You also aren't cognitively capable of playing Mage, for the same reason you couldn't grasp the pun-based Demon power, and for the same reason that you suck the life out of every Legends of the Wulin game you join.
Learn when you are incompatible with a game, and leave it.
Not that you'll respond to this because your autism will refuse to let you leave anything alone until people have the good sense to ignore you. Then you get on IRC and spam the exact same questions at everyone still talking to you.
...
If you guys are going to spend two threads arguing about an extremely esoteric rules conversation, could you at least make your own thread about it?
>I want regular people reacting to the unbelievable
In what way is that not a hero?
>You are currently doing a deplorable job of creating good faith for people interested in Mage 2e
You're harassing the man and ignoring him when he explains things to you. You're ignoring most of the thread when they explain things to you.
It has been repeatedly explained to you how this system works. Please stop ignoring people. You are literally quibbling over what you feel is a vagueness in the rules that no one else agrees with you about. Dave isn't issuing an errata so much as making it much more clear to people like you how the rules work.
One guy tried to be a hero during the prelude. That's how he wound up with the permanent wound flaw post embrace.
>In what way is that not a hero?
Depends on the reaction, doesn't it? What if, when faced with the vampire you find feeding on people in your neighborhood you just try and steer it toward people you don't like, or you use its presence to explain someone else's behavior and scapegoat them.
"My wife would never have left me for that other man, he must in league with that vampire who can control people's minds! I bet he's even one of them! Burn'em all!"
Apparently, a -10 or more penalty from spell factors is enough to constitute "pressure," allowing a mage to circumvent the "down and dirty spellcasting" rules. However, they take a cumulative -1 die penalty for each failed attempt. How much does this actually affect the mage?
A mage with Gnosis 3, Fate 2, Mind 3, a Rote for Exceptional Luck, a Rote for Augment Mind, and a relevant Rote specialty skill at 5 wants to boost four of their Mental or Social Attributes by +4.
They cast Exceptional Luck over the course of three turns. They spend a free Reach on instant action casting, a free Reach on Advanced Duration, and two free Reaches to affect casting. They take a -10 penalty on Potency. Their dice pool is Gnosis 3 + Fate 2 + Mantra 2 + Mudra 6 + Tool 1 - spell factors 10, for a dice pool of 4.
4 dice: 75.99% chance of success
3 dice: 65.7% chance of success
2 dice: 51% chance of success
1 die: 30% chance of success
They have a ~2.82% chance of failing, far less if they actually spend Willpower.
Once they succeed, they have a Potency 12 Exceptional Luck up, granting them a +12 bonus to their next 12 spellcasting rolls within the next hour.
They now cast Augment Mind over the course of three turns. They spend a free Reach for instant action casting, a free Reach for Advanced Duration, and a free Reach to affect two separate Attributes. They take a -10 penalty on Potency, a -8 penalty for a year-long Advanced Duration, and a -4 penalty to affect four subjects. Their final dice pool is 5.
5 dice: 83.19% chance of success
4 dice: 75.99% chance of success
3 dice: 65.7% chance of success
2 dice: 51% chance of success
1 die: 30% chance of success
They have a ~0.21% chance of failure.
Once they succeed, they grant +4 to two Mental or Social Attributes to four targets, with an Advanced Duration of an entire year.
Even with DaveB's intended errata, it is still trivial for a starting, 0 XP mage to supercharge themselves and their friends for an entire year.
You mean the part where the other thread kept putting their fingers in their ear, following with one of these responses?
>Dev rulings that aren't in the book actually matter
>RAI is actually more important then RAW
>RAW shouldn't match RAI
>WHITE ROOM WHITE ROOM NO ONE WOULD EVER LET YOU
>You just don't UNDERSTAND, MAN
>SHUT UP YOU AUTIST
Go fuck yourself.
Why does any of this matter? So you gamed the system to get a benefit, good for you. If there's an ST dumb enough to let you use it then shame on them, otherwise it's all academic and any patch Dave puts on this will amount to 'Storytellers should use their discretion' or just a flat out hamstring of one of those fiddly mechanics on the fly, arbitrarily turned into a roadblock just to appease your autism.
>Pangaeans are not spirits and are unaffected by anything that would affect a spirit only. One of the Wise who wishes to use magic on a Pangaean must use the Spirit and either Life or Matter Arcana.
Could someone explain this to me. Does this mean you need add Spirit and Life (Matter) to any spell you attempt to cast on them? Such as attempting to read their thoughts with Mind.
Or only when you attempt to use spells on them like attempting to increase their Rank, basically Patterning or Unraveling spells.
fuck off
Weren't you Banned from 4/Chan? How are here.
>Once they succeed, they have a Potency 12 Exceptional Luck up, granting them a +12 bonus to their next 12 spellcasting rolls within the next hour.
bonus from the same source can't go above +5 unless otherwise stated
>Even with DaveB's intended errata, it is still trivial for a starting, 0 XP mage to supercharge themselves and their friends for an entire year.
you haven't even seen the errata yet
You stupid, whining cunt. It is 100% in line with the rules, using their magic, the point of the fucking game.
How is an ST dumb for letting them USE THE POWERS AS WRITTEN?
>Points problem with the rule
>It doesn't matter
This is the fucking defense you shit out, and it is absolutely disgusting.
>Or only when you attempt to use spells on them like attempting to increase their Rank, basically Patterning or Unraveling spells.
This one
>unaffected by anything that would affect a spirit only
Mindreading can work on anything
Excepting the penalty-for-failure thing (which is a consequence of the core rules not being written with magic in mind and will be clarified), the main drawback to these shenanigans are...
1) Mana. Your mage either has a Legacy allowing Mind and Fate (some do) or one of those spells is requiring Mana.
2) It's all fun and games until some asshole dispels it.
So.. Can a starting Mage give himself Int 5? Sure. Why not. Go for it. Fill your spell control with buffing spells.
Addendum: The spell stacking rules on page 118 concern what happens when a mage tries to stack a bonus to the *same* aspect of a character.
There is nothing stopping our Fate 2, Mind 3 mage from casting Augment Mind yet again, this time targeting another pair of Mental or Social Attributes to receive +4 bonuses... for an entire year... for four separate people (i.e. the whole cabal, or maybe just people the mage likes).
What I am saying is that DaveB's proposed errata to spellcasting does little to curtail mages who seek to gain tremendous benefits right out of the gate.
That mage whose entire cabal is walking around with +4 to four Mental or Social Attributes for an entire year can then repeat the same trick for Exceptional Luck, gaining a +12 bonus to whatever pleases them, up to and including spellcasting.
>bonus from the same source can't go above +5 unless otherwise stated
As per page 213 of Mage 2e, the limit of a +5 bonus applies to circumstances and equipment. At no point is it applied to bonuses derived from spellcasting.
Rampant Touhou fanfaggotry. This is not the sign of a stable person.
I'm saying that troglodyte autists like you will find shaky mechanics in any system to exploit, then whine and cry when someone says that no ST using common sense would allow it.
It's 100% in the rules. Why shouldn't they allow it?
"Because it's too strong/game breaking!"
Then it should be dealt with by the designers to make sure it doesn't come up as an issue in the first place. It's the job of the game designer and writers to make sure that the game is as smooth and functional as possible without forcing groups to houserule things. Houserules should exist to make the game fit the group's style and personality, NOT to fix shit that the designers couldn't be arsed to fix themselves, period.
>As per page 213 of Mage 2e, the limit of a +5 bonus applies to circumstances and equipment.
You're reading it wrong, it's just saying how bonuses from circumstances and equipment work, not that nothing else is limited by it
it's frequently called out through the books as a limit
the only thing that goes beyond it is the bonus from clues
Dave, please go away. You shouldn't have to bear with this. It's also going to make the rest of us look bad.
DUDE BEASTS LMAO!!!
Say Dave sense Pangaeans have Arcane do they get the Attainments along with them?
If people can "exploit" a system by just using the rules, then the system is at fault and it's putting the ST under pressure to patch what's broken.
It's better to fix it rather than have it stay broken and "let the ST fix everything".
Why would I want to buy a book that has me houseruling every damn thing to keep my players from having wildly different power levels? I'd rather have something that works without me having to make a dozen judgement calls right out the gate. No-one's got time for that bullshit.
That's exactly what Dave is doing.
Until the official final copy of the book is out, though, according to you, none of that matters, because it's all just "Dev rulings that aren't in the book"
>It's also going to make the rest of us look bad.
you're Anonymous on Veeky Forums and regularly talk with aspel
there's nothing you can do to make yourself look bad
Yeah, if I want to play an out of the box broken game, I'll just go bring up the Pathfinder SRD.
Least that shit's free.
>Even with DaveB's intended errata, it is still trivial for a starting, 0 XP mage to supercharge themselves and their friends for an entire year.
No one cares. The rules mechanically allow quite a lot of things. The actual game, as played at the table, on the other hand, does not.
No, people pointed out that RAW *is* being ignored.
Only if it would ONLY affect a Spirit. I think Mind spells do require you to use Spirit when dealing with Spirits, but Mind effects animals as well, so you're good.
Rolling IP.
Because it's not what's written. You can't take a -10 penalty and then repeatedly roll 1 die until you succeed. Also, STs often overrule the book. Games can't function otherwise, because fringe cases can never be taken into account. Your ST is the one who decides whether your 100 dice pool means shit when you try to tell someone to shoot themselves without a supernatural power.
Magic doesn't count as a circumstance?
But this is a situation that a) is not actually legal, and b) is not something any ST would allow.
You cannot cover every single situation. Why focus on the ones that will never actually come up?
>HURR DURR WHAT IS THE DEVELOPMENT PROCESS GIVE ME 100% FLAWLESS SYSTEMS IMMEDIATELY WITH NO PLAYTESTING OR ERRATA
Outside of all your cries of "IT DOESN'T MATTER FUCK OFF AUTIST!"
You are actively trying to shut down people talking about problems with the system.
Not 2hou faggot, because he is getting on my fucking nerves, even though I agree with him to a certain degree on some shit. Where is this limit mentioned? As far as I see, magic doesn't give a shit about it.
it's not something that has to be patched
mage is about using magic and dealing with that
just like a werewolf can slaughter entire cities of people
they're things you deal with in-game
only the shittiest of dm's would just change the rules to keep you from doing what the game intends
under the rules for rolling dice and modifiers
>1) Mana. Your mage either has a Legacy allowing Mind and Fate (some do) or one of those spells is requiring Mana.
Neither of these spells requires Mana, DaveB.
>2) It's all fun and games until some asshole dispels it.
Fortunately, dispellation still has to go through a Withstand rating.
>So.. Can a starting Mage give himself Int 5? Sure. Why not. Go for it. Fill your spell control with buffing spells.
Two spells (across a whole cabal, for a year) takes up only two slots for spell control.
Remember my intentions here. What I would like is a smooth, decently-balanced game. No game can be perfect, but a game should strive to have mechanical integrity.
This is also why I champion Urban Shadows, a PbtA clone of WoD, as a superior alternative to actual WoD. It does have its balance flaws, like the Aware (deliberately) being a very weak crash-and-burn playbook, and the Wizard (unsurprisingly) being being by far the most powerful playbook.
At no point does page 213 actually limit bonuses from spellcasting to +5.
No, we entertained the discussion of the problems for a while, and then you guys kept fucking hammering the nail after it was all the way in.
We get it. The system has issues. It's being errata'd. Shut the fuck up, already.
When people say "shut up, I don't want to hear criticism" then that generally means the criticism isn't going to be taken into account in the final book.
This is in fact why the queries are being brought up as issues now, SO that it can be a better system.
>But this is a situation that a) is not actually legal, and b) is not something any ST would allow.
Uh, dude?
The DEV JUST SAID IT'S RULES LEGIT. Holy shit you have no awareness.
No, you shoved your fingers in your ears near instantly and now screech anytime he posts. See
>At no point does page 213 actually limit bonuses from spellcasting to +5.
modifiers (of all kinds) are repeatedly limited to 5 from the same source, it's the core system
nowhere does it say magic ignores that rule (like it does for clues)
>Clues can go above the normal +5 limit on dice bonuses; they’re limited only by the character’s Investigation Skill.
But the errata DOESN'T HELP. The same problem's still there, even with errata.
>Neither of these spells requires Mana, DaveB.
Non-Ruling Improvised Spells require Mana, fampai
>Two spells (across a whole cabal, for a year) takes up only two slots for spell control.
That leaves you with 0 free spell control slots at Gnosis 1, or 1 at Gnosis 3. Have fun spending extra Reach for every spell you cast.
>At no point does page 213 actually limit bonuses from spellcasting to +5.
Page 126
>Any spell that increases a Trait beyond the target’s natural maximum costs a point of Mana. Remember that high-Gnosis mages and other supernatural creatures may have Trait maximums higher than 5. The “Trait maximum” for an equipment bonus is always +5.
But this isn't an actual problem. This is a manufactured bullshit problem that doesn't actually exist and relies on flat out ignoring parts of the system and rules lawyering that you're not under pressure. It's the same as saying that you can tell someone to commit suicide by forcing their Doors. The mechanics don't allow you to do that because there's a built in system of "if the ST tells you no, too bad".
Why assume magic is treated differently?
Except that the game does run smoothly. You're grabbing the wheel of the hatchback and driving it off road and arguing that it should be paved. The game does have as much mechanical integrity in this situation as is necessary. You're ignoring all of that. Urban Shadows or any other rules lite game is not going to be a "superior alternative" for people who want to play the Chronicles of Darkness. That you can't seem to comprehend that is part of the problem.
The first thing he says is pointing out that magic takes penalties for failures, which is the core to the method.
Well, that fucking blows for my frenzy-vamp. I had no idea it capped, so I've been giving him an extra 6 dice due to blood potency instead of capping it at 5.
Yeah, fuck you. Read
and
until it sinks through your thick skull, ban evader.
>No, you shoved your fingers in your ears near instantly
No, we entertained it for a bit. When he started making repeat posts to say the exact same thing over and over again, and straight-up ignoring people, we got sick of it.
At this point, he's just posting to post and make people made.
fairly sure rose did make an exception for that but I don't know where
still, that's just a one die change, the same with the magic buff, giving yourself a +5 isn't exactly shit compared to a +7, they're both huge bonuses
So, here's the thing. To pick four non-random examples;
Chaos Mastery. Boy, is this spell's wording fucked up. I have no idea where that +Fate thing came from, the spell never says (though points to those who figured it out) that it affects probability within an Area of Effect; most uses will be on everything in an area, but if you wanted to control one random thing you could just have that as a subjct, I suppose. Ooo. Lottery balls! I digress.
So yeah. Chaos Mastery. All fucked up. Was flagged to be rewritten on day two of errata gathering. Haven't responded to people about it because haven't rewritten it yet.
Healing Spells. Why so high Practice? People have made compelling arguments, seriously considering making Knit able to heal lethal.
Mages get willpower back from sleeping. I was bemused at the massve thread about this one until I checked and - no, none of the 2e cores *do* say so, published or unpublished (I checked Promethean and Changeling, too). Despite other rules referencing it, like Knit in Mage or the mechanics of how soul shock works in Beast. So I escalated it up to Rose; the reason it's not in the core rules chapter is because vampires don't, vampire was first, and no one realized to add it back in. Have added it back in.
Ban allows Mastigos to murder people by suffocation. Well... Yes. It does. That's why we even wrote a sidebar about how much air people need.
Something being flagged for attention does not necessarily mean it will get changed. Sometimes it's a wording thing, it being clear in our heads but not to readers. Sometimes its a legacy issue from the Storytelling Rules base that I have to go talk to other devs about. And sometimes the rule is doing exactly what it's meant to.
Mages taking great pains to buff their Attributes? Eh. user's example is absurd in how extreme it is, but fundamentally, if the player wants to put all his eggs in that basket, go for it.
>The actual game, as played at the table, on the other hand, does not.
The written rules should synchronize with how the game is meant to be played on the table.
>Because it's not what's written. You can't take a -10 penalty and then repeatedly roll 1 die until you succeed.
Fortunately, my post in shows that even with the cumulative penalty, it is still fully possible to achieve remarkable results at character creation.
>But this is a situation that a) is not actually legal
DaveB has acknowledged that it is actually legal in If DaveB states that Exceptional Luck works as I have described it, then Exceptional Luck, at least, can certainly go higher than +%.
>Non-Ruling Improvised Spells require Mana, fampai
Rotes remove that cost, and the character in has Rotes for both spells.
>That leaves you with 0 free spell control slots at Gnosis 1, or 1 at Gnosis 3. Have fun spending extra Reach for every spell you cast.
The character in has Gnosis 3. A free spell control slot is enough to handle active spells over the course of one's business.
>>The “Trait maximum” for an equipment bonus is always +5.
Exceptional Luck does *not* confer an equipment bonus.
The literal first post to him was "I don't want to argue with you, autist, go away".
The first post was not the only post. Other people, including me, entertained it for a bit.
Singling out an example from one poster doesn't make it true of all the others.
>Neither of these spells requires Mana, DaveB.
Actually, you are quite right - I glazed over the third to fifteenth time you posted it and missed that you were using a rote for both.
>ban evader
What? Also, as I've pointed out, it isn't in the rules. It involves ignoring the explicit rules on ST judgement to treat "may" as "definitely 100% always can".
I think the poster you're quoting was saying "Dave, please save yourself, you don't deserve this headache".
>The written rules should synchronize with how the game is meant to be played on the table.
They do not synchronize, and the first thing Dave said was about the penalty for repeat attempts. "Equipment bonus" does not necessarily mean an actual piece of equipment, and situations also apply.
>Exceptional Luck does *not* confer an equipment bonus.
Higher up on the same page.
>Spells that grant or increase equipment bonuses count as Trait bonuses. This also applies to spells that simply increase a dice pool.
Would anyone by chance be interested in joining a Hunter game? I've talked about the game a few times in the general before, where in the group was hired by a demon, got dragged into god machine bullshit and are presently dealing with the recently surfaced, formerly thought dead changeling sibling of one of the party-members.
>rules lawyering that you're not under pressure
It is *better* to be under pressure than not, because that sets aside "down and dirty spellcasting," enabling you to use Yantra bonuses and spell factors. As shown in , even with a cumulative -1 penalty for failure, a mage can still very much supercharge themselves for an entire year.
Additionally, it is worth noting that since the duration is *a whole year*, then the mage may as well take it slowly, bump up the duration on Exceptional Luck to a day, change the Reach on Augment Mind from instant action casting to Advanced Potency, and guard against dispellation that way.
With Advanced Potency, this starting mage has Withstand 5 against the dispellation of Augment Mind.
>Except that the game does run smoothly. You're grabbing the wheel of the hatchback and driving it off road and arguing that it should be paved.
"Off road" is apparently "using the rules to try to make a powerful character even under the constraints of a cumulative die penalty for acting 'under pressure.'"
>The first thing he says is pointing out that magic takes penalties for failures, which is the core to the method.
This, as established in , does not solve much.
Dave, apart from the spells in the Advanced Mage Sight SoS spoiler, will there be any other new spells in SoS ?
It ignores no rules. You've given not a single reason as to why the ST should disallow it, and Dave has even flat out said it's legit, you disingenuous fuck.
Off road is attempting to break the system in a way that would never work out in the actual play of the game, yes.
Yes, I have. Repeatedly.
IT WORKS IN ACTUAL PLAY YOU STUPID FUCK. HOLY GODDAMN MOTHERFUCKING SHIT. DAVE. AGREED. IT. WORKED.
DO YOU HAVE LITERAL BRAIN DAMAGE?
is there a reason for the "arcana -1" wording in the spell factors section? That feels truncated. Why not say the prim. factor equals arcana dots?
>Excepting the penalty-for-failure thing
He took. That. Into. Account. You little. Braindead, illiterate cunt.
11/10 trolling, I am actually fucking angry.
Is having bonuses to Mental Attributes really that much of a 'supercharge'? I mean, it's not exactly godlike power to be the smartest person the room when everyone else can call down meteors or invert gravity and cause you to fall upward into a ceiling fan and become decapitated.
Solving every problem trivially on top of gaining bonuses to your ability to call down meteors is pretty big, yeah.
Because base Potency is 1, not 0.
Let's talk about something completely different.
I've started to make the Whipping Boys for 2e. I've changed a lot about them, and basically just took the core concept and scrapped everything else, then started from that core. I still need to edit it and I can't think of a suitable Fifth Attainment, though. Originally 4th was 5th, and that Fourth was all about going into a shared Oneiros and using whichever of the participants in the Session's better traits, but that wasn't suitably impressive enough for a capstone (or Fourth Attainment).
Anyway, tell me what you think. Give me some suggestions. I'm probably going to have to dip into Creative Thaumaturgy and make up a Mind spell
This could be fun though, because naturally every Mage would want this benefit. You could have an entire Legacy dedicated to performing and maintaining these bonuses on those they deem 'worthy' and then others who're developing ways to counteract / dispel it easier. Plus, those people who're making these supercharged armies would have huge targets on their heads, it'd make for a great Chronicle to be the Mages who innovate this and now have to protect it and decide whether or not to share it.
I don't want them to get rid of this, I want to play this.
Please stop with the stupid Whipping Boys fetish shit. If you're going to homebrew a Legacy to 2e why not something less degenerate like the Eleventh Question?
Because the Eleventh Question already exists.
Because I like the Whipping Boys.
Would you rather I make a Magical Girl Legacy?
It turns out that I have made a legitimate error in calculating the Potency of the Exceptional Luck here. I will be correcting such immediately.
>They do not synchronize
Which is a problem.
>the first thing Dave said was about the penalty for repeat attempts
This is already being taken into account in .
>"Equipment bonus" does not necessarily mean an actual piece of equipment, and situations also apply.
Equipment bonuses and environmental bonuses are different, hence why some core Merits affect one but not the other. Furthermore, bonuses from spellcasting are neither. Even DaveB acknowledged that Exceptional Luck could provide bonuses beyond +5 in .
The issue with Mana is nonexistent (both spells are under Rotes), Dispellation is not a major concern against anything but higher-powered mages (who are essentially "you, only better" anyway), and spell control (this trick takes up only two out of a Gnosis 3 mage's three spell control slots, and buffs the *entire cabal for a year*).
>Off road is attempting to break the system in a way that would never work out in the actual play of the game, yes.
A mage attempting to alter fate so as to make themselves better at spellcasting, then making themselves smarter and more socially capable is hardly unthinkable.
Again, it is already being taken into account in .
(This mechanic widgit reserved for future expansion.)
It doesn't solve every problem.
Cause every other mage is going to have the same benefits and you're going to be working against them. Their bonuses will negate yours.
Plus the various things that will take you by surprise (i thought it was a mage but it was an ochemata, or I solved that problem but it turns out the solution is an acamoth and I am now a carrier)
Eleventh Question is the one legacy in the core book.
oook, now I'm curious xD - Can you at least say if we'll see this in the announced books (Signs and Tome) or is it too much ahead?
>Even DaveB acknowledged that Exceptional Luck could provide bonuses beyond +5 in (You).
It can, but it makes the spell cost Mana. p.126.
But you've committed yourself to casting a three hour ritual over and over until you get it right, then immediately casting another one until you get *that* right. One Mana per attempt isn't that bad.
Okay. Let us try this again, with the correct Potency and with better safeguarding against dispellation.
A mage with Gnosis 3, Fate 2, Mind 3, a Rote for Exceptional Luck, a Rote for Augment Mind, and a relevant Rote specialty skill at 5 wants to boost four of their Mental or Social Attributes by +4.
They cast Exceptional Luck over the course of three turns. They spend a free Reach on instant action casting, a free Reach on Advanced Duration, and two free Reaches to affect casting. They take a -8 penalty on Potency, and a -2 penalty on a day-long duration. Their dice pool is Gnosis 3 + Fate 2 + Mantra 2 + Mudra 6 + Tool 1 - spell factors 10, for a dice pool of 4.
4 dice: 75.99% chance of success
3 dice: 65.7% chance of success
2 dice: 51% chance of success
1 die: 30% chance of success
They have a ~2.82% chance of failing, far less if they actually spend Willpower.
Once they succeed, they have a Potency 6 Exceptional Luck up, granting them a +6 bonus to their next 6 spellcasting rolls for an entire day.
They now cast Augment Mind over the course of an hour, using Mantra, Mudra, and a Tool. They spend a free Reach for Advanced Potency, a free Reach for Advanced Duration, and a free Reach to affect two separate Attributes. They take a -10 penalty on Potency, a -4 penalty for a week-long Advanced Duration, and a -2 penalty to affect two subjects. Their final dice pool is Gnosis 3 + Mind 3 + Mantra 2 + Mudra 6 + Tool 1 + Exceptional Luck 6 - spell factors 16 = 5.
5 dice: 83.19% chance of success
4 dice: 75.99% chance of success
3 dice: 65.7% chance of success
2 dice: 51% chance of success
1 die: 30% chance of success
They have a ~0.21% chance of failure.
Once they succeed (perhaps over the course of five hours), they grant +4 to two Mental or Social Attributes to two targets, with an Advanced Duration of a whole week. This also has Advanced Potency, for a total of Withstand 5 against dispellation.
Has Mage 2e been updated with typo fixes and indexes yet?
Is that to be considered errata, then? "Bonuses that go past +5 cost Mana, even if they are not actually affecting Traits or equipment bonuses"?
Okay. Let us retry with corrections.
A mage with Gnosis 3, Fate 2, Mind 3, a Rote for Exceptional Luck, a Rote for Augment Mind, and a relevant Rote specialty skill at 5 wants to boost four of their Mental or Social Attributes by +4.
They cast Exceptional Luck over the course of three turns. They spend a free Reach on instant action casting, a free Reach on Advanced Duration, and two free Reaches to affect casting. They take a -6 penalty on Potency, and a -2 penalty on a day-long duration. Their dice pool is Gnosis 3 + Fate 2 + Mantra 2 + Mudra 6 + Tool 1 - spell factors 8, for a dice pool of 6.
6 dice: 88.23% chance of success
5 dice: 83.19% chance of success
4 dice: 75.99% chance of success
3 dice: 65.7% chance of success
2 dice: 51% chance of success
1 die: 30% chance of success
They have a microscopic 0.055888773% chance of failing.
Once they succeed, they have a Potency 5 Exceptional Luck up, granting them a +5 bonus to their next 5 spellcasting rolls for an entire day.
They now cast Augment Mind over the course of an hour, using Mantra, Mudra, and a Tool. They spend a free Reach for Advanced Potency, a free Reach for Advanced Duration, and a free Reach to affect two separate Attributes. They take a -10 penalty on Potency, a -4 penalty for a week-long Advanced Duration, and a -2 penalty to affect two subjects. Their final dice pool is Gnosis 3 + Mind 3 + Mantra 2 + Mudra 6 + Tool 1 + Exceptional Luck 5 - spell factors 16 = 4.
4 dice: 75.99% chance of success
3 dice: 65.7% chance of success
2 dice: 51% chance of success
1 die: 30% chance of success
They have a ~2.82% chance of failing, far less if they actually spend Willpower.
Once they succeed (perhaps over the course of five hours), they grant +4 to two Mental or Social Attributes to two targets, with an Advanced Duration of a whole week.
You want things to conform to your ridiculous standards. This will never happen.
No. Look at this thread. Dave has to deal with hundreds of pages worth of THIS.
For the record, I wouldn't take that mind buff on my character.
That spell capacity is way too important to waste on a simple dicebonus longterm. Which is something everyone who has actually played 2e has probably noticed already.
Don't cast attribute enhancers with a duration of more than a scene, or a day at most. Total waste otherwise.
Do you honestly think that anyone cares at this point? Please give it a rest. Or take it to the OPP forums. If you honestly want these things to be fixed, then that's where they belong, not pissing into the wind to a bunch of people who really don't like the way that you do things.
Remember that ritual casting time for Gnosis 3 is only one hour.
In other words, for the cost of about five hours and *maybe* a Willpower point or two (absolutely no Mana is being spent here), a mage can grant themselves and a buddy a +4 bonus to two Mental or Social Attributes for a whole week, with Withstand 5 against dispellation.
They can then repeat the same process for another two Mental or Social Attributes, since the spell stacking rules do not actually prevent this. They are left with one free spell control slot, but hey, at least they have maxed-out Mental and Social Attributes.
Would you like for me to attempt the same example with a different spell, then?
>OPP forums
>threads for criticism have been closed down
kek
I got it. New rule to errata in; no spell can be recast after failure until you've had 8 hours rest. In fact, how about we get rid of Creative Thaumaturgy altogether and make it so all Mages have a set number of rotes they can memorize per day and then forget immediately after they're cast and have to be recommitted to memory over an extended rest period.
Now -there- is a perfect system.
Make a new one.
You know what, I hate myself. Why don't you look over my Whipping Boy Legacy and tell me what you think, and how I can improve it. I'm sure they could use some M1 Garands.
>no spell can be recast after failure until you've had 8 hours rest. In fact, how about we get rid of Creative Thaumaturgy altogether and make it so all Mages have a set number of rotes they can memorize per day and then forget immediately after they're cast and have to be recommitted to memory over an extended rest period.
That sounds horrible and shit, no-one would use something like that.
...
Let us attempt this under a new example, this time with only Gnosis 3 and Fate 2. (Not even Fate 3, just Fate 2).
A mage with Gnosis 3, Fate 2, a Rote for Quantum Flux, a Rote for Exceptional Luck, and a relevant Rote specialty skill at 5 wants to be *really* lucky at doing things.
They cast Exceptional Luck over the course of three turns. They spend a free Reach on instant action casting, a free Reach on Advanced Duration, and two free Reaches to affect casting. They take a -6 penalty on Potency, and a -2 penalty on a day-long duration. Their dice pool is Gnosis 3 + Fate 2 + Mantra 2 + Mudra 6 + Tool 1 - spell factors 8, for a dice pool of 6.
Over the course of six rolls, they have a 0.055888773% chance of failing.
Once they succeed, they have a Potency 5 Exceptional Luck up, granting them a +5 bonus to their next 5 spellcasting rolls for an entire day.
They now cast Quantum Flux (primary factor is Duration) over the course of three turns. They spend a free Reach for instant action casting, a free Reach for sensory range, a free Reach for Advanced Potency, a free Reach for Advanced Duration, and and a free Reach for Advanced Scale. They take a -8 penalty on Potency. Their final dice pool is Gnosis 3 + Fate 2 + Mantra 2 + Mudra 6 + Tool 1 + Exceptional Luck 5 - spell factors 8 = 11 dice, more than enough to guarantee a success.
Once they succeed (perhaps in just a few turns), they grant up to five targets (including themselves) the ability to ignore -5 in penalties to their next five actions. Furthermore, even if that effect runs out, they can still take a turn to aim (and lose Defense, unfortunately) and gain a whopping +5 bonus to their next mundane instant action. Remember, this affects the entire cabal and has Advanced Potency to help Withstand dispellation.
Since it is so trivial and rapid to cast this chain of Exceptional Luck and Quantum Flux, a mage could do so each scene at their leisure. This does not even cost Mana or Willpower.