Paladin General

5e also has made it easier with the oaths so you can play a more reasonable Paldain as well. Love the oath of the ancients by the way

...

Because LG doesn't mean "The Taliban", as the Taliban sees itself. Be a paladin, worship a god of knowledge or justice, and deal with CN or CE characters as the situation demands. A paladin isn't required to kill everything he sees as evil; that's the Taliban. Lawful, sure, but good represents taking the value of life seriously, and killing or injuring people for disagreeing with you is not that. Odds are, if an evil character can play well enough with others to be part of a group, then the paladin may not necessarily have that much beef, and would probably want to convert them.

Of course, sometimes the "Lawful Stupid" thing is amusing and fitting, but generally lawful stupid is more of an expectation the DM puts on a paladin for failing to read alignment descriptions and failing to read the paladin COC description, or who just want to punish players for arbitrary reasons.

A lot of DMs don't really read the rules of the games they try to run, hence the stereotype of stupid paladins because they're forced to be that way by illiterate DMs. It's really not much of a real thing. I've been in/DM'd exactly one game with a lawful stupid paladin, and it was contextually fitting for the character and didn't cause problems with the party because it was the character that failed to understand nuance, not the player.

I have always followed Robocop's three Prime Directives whenever I played a Paladin.

1. Serve the public trust.
2. Protect the innocent.
3. Uphold the law.

Was always as simple as that for me. Robocop is never wrong.

I'm dming a game soon and one of my players wants to go as a chaotic neutral vengeance paladin.

What do

What system are you using?

my bad on the name fagging

You can make him a "fallen paladin" which would allow for him to explore those RP possibilities and treat him as a fighter of equivalent levels, who has forsaken their holy ideals in an attempt to gain vengeance.

You can tell him no.

You can make an addendum to whatever system you are using to allow for a CN Vengeance Paladin.

If you are playing Pathfinder you can make him a Gray Paladin (still requires rules bending), Anti-Paladin or War Priest.

5e, sorry I'm in a bad area for internet access

No problem, If you are committed to the rules you will not be able to find any alternative that is within the rule set (most likely I don't have 5e experience) .

However if you are willing to work with this player to expand on this idea and make an exception for him, that is up to you as the DM. Never forget that the rules are a guideline for you to consider, but you always have the option of going against them by having non lawful monks or even a CN paladin. My suggestion however would be to ask him if he would be willing to compromise at a solid Chaotic Good. You could even keep him as Lawful Good unless he is using this as an excuse just to murder hobo people he doesn't like, then it becomes harder to rationalize working with a player. Above all always reward good role-playing (that is if you are focusing on RP instead of game mechanics in your campaign..

He is a bit of a that guy in the sense that he wants to play a psychopath every time. However he does engage with the story

What would the alignment of a "purge xeno scum" Paladin be?

As long as he isn't using it as an excuse to be 'lol randum deadpool XD" it could work out well. I personally try to reward RP and allow for the "rule of cool" when it comes to a lot of things. At the end of the day you just have to be able to deal with the character he comes up with and if everyone has fun at the end of the day that is all that matters imo.

I wouldn't pin that under one alignment but rather see it as a trait because a "purge xeno scum paladin" should only be one facet of that character otherwise it would make for a 1 dimensional character that lacks personality. I would also say that those traits could apply to any alignment seeing as that shouldn't be the only thing to consider when RPing such a character.

Thanks for the advice user. I think I got lucky with him really in that he's a toned down That Gut. I'll bare your advice in mind

*Guy

Avoiding Lawful Stupidity is relatively simple (if not always easy); all you have to do is understand that not all laws (or lawmakers, or enforcers of the law) work to the benefit of society. The opposite can be true, especially in areas that are governed by the rule of man (as opposed to the rule of law). A paladin should strike out against evil in all it's forms, even if it's backed by a badge, or a crown. I'd argue that they should strike out especially hard in this case, given that Lawful Evil behaviours can erode a people's trust in forming an ordered cohesive society, which leads to chaos and revolt. If a paladin does find himself in a situation where an establishment is his enemy, he should be ready to instill a more beneficial order in it's place, where laws exist to serve the common good. This should be no easy task, but more than worth devoting a campaign to, in my opinion.

As for a paladin in a party with a Chaotic Evil (or Neutral) member? I'd say do your best to present a relatively legal, moral alternative to whatever they suggest doing. Don't shy away from confronting them when they attempt to harm an innocent in front of you, and keep in mind that scheming within the party isn't the sole intellectual property of Evil players (and can be done in good taste). Maybe chat with the GM in private about contacting the local authorities of a setting if the CE or CN character has gone too far in the Paladin's eyes. It's almost guaranteed that this player has something up his sleeve to dispose of you as well.

My favorite oath? The Oath of Devotion, because vanilla isn't a bad flavor after all.

Op, again just nervous about fucking up a moral decision. Like say there's people enslaved, and the only way to kill their enslavers would be to kill them too, what do you do? Moral questions like this I'm not sure what to do without fucking up.

I guess just pick the lesser of two evils and kill them both? I'll be back later tonight.

also currently making a paladin in e5, found this guys "guide" for pointers, good explanation of the basics

the guy is kinda a minmaxer but just ignore that and pick spells and abilities that fit your character and make the adventure fun
(flaws are fun)

docs.google.com/document/d/1-xCZsRMsiQz_at-0-OOSRWorKlk9AScuBISuekNEzqc/edit

Need moar info.
Are slaves magically bound to share life energy with slavers? Are slaves so devoted to slavers they will defend masters to the last breath?

I have like 5 minutes, I got this from reading a story of a CN ranger and pals with a paladin, they were outside a cave which inside had prisoners making armor that caused the six guards to be far too powerful for the group to kill. The only way the group could kill the guards would be to dig a trench to the lake nearby and drown everyone inside the cave. The paladin insists that they fight, they do and get their shit rocked. They tie up the paladin and flood the cave. Not sure what the pally should've done there.

I know people who play Paladin and always try to kill Evil PC's because "Paladin's can detect evil and have to kill evil things no matter what"

>How do you play LG without being lawful stupid?
Good first Lawful second.
People keep getting hung up o following laws but forget that the paladin is supposed to be a Champion of Good.

>What about in a party with CN? CE?
CN can work if the player is actually playing CN instead of using it to play Chaotic Stupid, lolsoramdumb or Stupid Evil.
CE can work in the same way you can wok ith LE or NE. You can do a grudging enemy mine against a bigger evil, or if the Evil player is a good friend and a really good roleplayer the character can try to hide his evil deeds and you can try tocatch him the act, but that can only be done with both knowing one or the other character is going to have to be retired mid-campaign, either you catch the evil PC and kill or try to redeem him or your paladin eventually falls.

Stay afloat.

If your paladin only sees one course of action in a given situation, they might be lawful stupid.

I give it what I like to think it an Eastern European spin, that is from the perspective of a Western Christian type. But a sterotype about the things we don't know about.

>Redemption only for those who reach or it
>Applying blessings and mercies on items and things belonging to pious people
>Evil is a choice and deserving of scorn and anger
>To change they must be reborn and it is able tor anybody, if they refuse, they are to be killed
>Localized Sainthood and miracle recording
>Large unshaven beard

>I give it what I like to think it an Eastern European spin

>Applying blessings and mercies on items and things belonging to pious people

That's exactly what I was recalling. I have no idea what they are doing but I have seen them blessing tanks, jets, rifles, ammo and special forces.

That's how I see a Paladin.

Need some help here coming up with an interesting concept. I´ve always been a wizard/druid player and I´m kinda out of my field.

I´ll be playing in a game (DnD3e, average Middle Ages Europe, fantasy creatures common and known but not everyone´s seen one) as a foreigner paladin who somehow ends up there with the rest.

I don´t want to be another typical paladin. Can I get some brainstorming?

One important point: of the other 3 party members, two are rather passive and the third is close to a randumb character. I need something that allows me to take the initiative easily and lead the group around

Do you know the other classes and races they're going?

The passive guys are a 4 INT half orc and a dwarf druid, randumb is a girl and will 102% sure be a tight leader wearing bow wielding rogue, 50% sure multiclass into wizard.

Also, we´ll be starting at level 1 (so no hardened veterans, or somehow weakened otherwise), and it´s kind of a key point that I speak the language poorly. We´re playing in German and I speak awfully anyways, so why break the immersion with me poorly trying to speak decently.

The rogue will be doing most of the charisma workings anyways

Are there any good reasons for a Paladin to keep his face hidden behind a mask?

I'm currently playing an Oath of Vengeance Paladin of Tyr, if that helps any.

This, but
*and what doesn't distress/fuck everyone else's fun up

Might I suggest a bard? If you want to be the face of the party that is.

Otherwise, I'd say make a NG paladin and build around that, since you'll have a rogue.

NOTE: I'm going to be playing my first game on Thursday, I've only read a lot of paladin stories, so take this advice with a fucking gandhi amount of salt.

He wears it because it's his "true" face. No one cared who he was until he put it on.

Woe be to those who try to pull it off.

Don't know anything about Tyr, but I don't think this will go against anything you believe in
Be super humble, be that guy that insists everything you've accomplished is because others taught you well or because of Tyr's guidance
You wear a mask so no on associates you with your deeds, all the glory belongs to Tyr. You are but a hassle for his will and when people speak of your triumphs, they shall speak of the man who wears the face of Tyr

Seconding this, the masks seperates you from a sort of actor, perhaps you are using your paladin skills for a certain need? You aren't a paladin by specific want, but it's a need or a step between now and a certain goal you have.

Perhaps it's part of his orders religous beliefs.
Example; a Paladin of Helm when "on the job" might always wear a helmet or mask to show reverence to his God and his representation of the impartiality of the law and duty.

Nah, face of the party will be the rogue. I´ll be the "fucking get moving" guy, because half orc barbarian and dwarf druid rarely make a plan or take the lead and the rogue, I fear, will act too fast and think too little and get the party killed.

So I´m aiming to be a bulky guy who can protect the group while getting out of whatever the rogue got us into, and then lead the group wherever we actually need to go.

That means I need a clear purpose or objective that I can use over and over to lead them around or strongly support a certain course of action.

Still unsure how to do it without falling back to standard "hunt evil" paladin. Bards aren´t tanky enough to survive here, barbarians we´ve got one, and I just don´t really enjoy warriors (as a paladin at least I´ve got some magic and my oath to help me do stuff beyond "whack it until it stops moving").

Op here, first game is on thursday and I'm going to be playing a paladin in Lost Mines. I've been revising these past few days, just want to see if it's too 1 dimensional and if anyone has any suggestions:

Backstory (2 paragraphs, hopefully isn't too non-human): pastebin.com/xRHsx6LD

I'm thinking this guy is a bit of a coward / indecisive, yet he still wants to prove himself as he sees himself as inferior to his younger brothers and people he knows. I think this'll lead to a more defensive playstyle, protecting others as he should've, or at thinks he should've, done for his father.

I'm not going to be preachy about Lathander, because really he's only using being a Paladin to get his father back and doesn't see himself long term staying an adventurer. I'll try to play quivering faith as he realizes his naivety of the world, being a farmboy and only recently moving out of his area.

I'm a little unsure of how I'll well, speak as this guy. Not sure what type of mannerisms to use, I was thinking mild use of farm cliches, like "damn goblins are as common as dirt and belong 6 feet under it".

Not certain on his personality either, I don't want to be an edgelord broading in a corner, but I can't really see this guy as your drinking buddy. I guess broadly I can say he'd be an optimistic, cautionary at that.

My favorite paladin that I've ever played was journeying with the party out of duty but ended up having quite a few revelations along the way.

When he first joined the party he was a pretty typical generi-din felt a strong sense of duty to his code and nothing else.

long story short the guy was faced with a fork in the road during a crisis, he chose to uphold his duty and as a result lost his left hand and inadvertently caused the death of 3 innocents.

From there he decided to re-evaluate the way he upheld his code and duty to his god, he switched from a great sword to a bastard sword and began focusing on punishing evil before it starts to take root.

He roamed the country side cutting down anyone deemed a wrongdoer by the tenants of his code and for a while this went on without incident.

Upon entering a major city of the area some of the higher ups of the town guard asked his adventuring party to assist in helping them subdue a well known criminal organization within the cities walls.

The paladin decided to assist the town guard under the assumption he was doing something right, whereas the rest of his adventuring party declined.

He followed the guard to the slums and began cutting down every slumrat in his path. upon entering the "stonghold" of the criminal organization he found the rest of his adventuring party pleading with him to stop.

Apparently he had been coerced by a corrupt group of private security who had absorbed the towns guard and eschewed the power of it's overseer long ago. The people he had been carving a bloody swath through were the last remnants of a resistance coalition put together to stop the thugs from squeezing the last few drops of life from the town.

After the situation had been resolved and the town was back on it's way back to stability, he left. Deep into the mountains just outside the towns borders.

>cont'd

I'm just against being a paladin in a group with a lol2urandom rogue, if you want to stop them then sure go Paladin, but you could go along with it and ask what the fuck is a yellow dragon. Maybe a warlock? I dunno, you don't HAVE to stop her.

I'd just play what you want on the first session and see how it turns out, if the character is ill fit for the party talk to the DM I guess.

AGAIN I'VE NEVER PLAYED, BUT I JUST LIKE TALKING

Upon arriving at his destination he planted his sword deep into the earth and removed his remaining hand as an act of penance for the things he had done to the people he had sworn himself to protect.

There writhing on the ground bleeding, he chose to fall.

He cast off the fealty he held to both god and creed and journeyed with back to where his companions were camping.

Upon his return they nursed him back to health and asked what they could do for him, he requested a mace head that could be strapped to his stump and a shield that he could slide his other arm into.

Upon receiving these items he set out anew with his companions with a new creed. To protect the people above all else, wherever and whenever he was able. Without the restrictive bindings of a code that had caused him and so many others so much grief.

He fought oppression and became a shield to the innocent, understanding that true heroism comes from the number of lives saved, not the ones ended.

All the while still under the mantle of Paladin.

I never understood penance for Paladins in D&D, what does cutting your other hand off do but make you weaker against the forces of evil?

Battles that are hard fought are sweeter when won, etc., etc. Something like that I'm assuming.

CE.

...

Does he have to be a large man to do this?

Thanks for the ideas anons.

In comparison to most men of lesser faith, such as you.

Prove your commitment to your duty by making it harder on yourself and then still pursuing it. Not strictly wise, but poignant.

I have an idea for a hillbilly paladin based on this song.
youtube.com/watch?v=x_1H2njznEU

Relevant paragraph (5ePG 83)
"as guardians against the forces of wickedness, paladins are rarely of any evil alignment. Most of them walk the paths of charity and justice. Consider how your alignment colors the way you pursue your holy quest and the manner in which you conduct yourself before gods and mortals. Your oath and alignment might be in harmony, or your oath might represent standards of behavior that you have not yet attained."

So RAW no problem with alignment per se, even if ?E pallys are rare. The question is how well can he live up to the ideals of Fight the Greater Evil, No Mercy for the Wicked, By Any Means Necessary, and Restitution, which are actually surprisingly weighty

Just in a general sense, how do you deal with evil acts done by the party that there is no alternative to, like torturing the BBEG's henchman.

Is the answer just let it be and say it's for the greater good, assuming you're LG?

5e pally's no longer get detect evil, but "Divine Sense" which only lets them spot clestials, fiends, undead, and consecrated/desecrated objects. RAW the only spell that can be used to probe an alignment specifically is Glyph of Warding.

Weigh not only the actions that they have committed but also weigh their readiness to commit such an act. Also IMO there is no situation where torture is necessary, It may be a faster way to attain results but torture isn't something that should be done lightly by characters that are "Good"

Sorry if that was a stupid question, just worried I'll fuck up.

Learn to do a real interrogation. Torture will make someone say whatever you want them to and that's the problem. Actually getting usable information out of someone is a very different skillset.

Not to be cliche but there is no such thing as a stupid question. It would be better for you to ask the question and learn from it rather than to remain ignorant. The fact that you are asking that question makes it seem as if you at least care which is one of the most important part of being a DM IMO. On the aspect of you being worried about fucking up, typically one time where you torture someone will not shift an alignment unless its something at a colossal scale. That is not to say that those actions shouldn't be weighed since they are small acts of "Evil" but remember that everything a PC does should be taken into consideration

"Forgive me, %name of god% for I have sinned"

Can LE paladin still be kind of good?

Here's a problem.

>LG Dragonborn Paladin of Bahamut.

Your Tiefling wizard ally is summoning fiends. While this alone is a dangerous act, she has been using them for mundane works. (The player styles her as a King Solomon v2.) such as construction. She's adamant to not have her services weaponized and honestly thinks that the lower planes are some great continent of unexplored potential that people just squander by either throwing fiends at each other or just dismissing it all as 'evil' and destroying them. As for the threat of corruption she's had a few risky offers but terminates them every time. She's adamant that the fiends could work for the better of the world and not vice versa. As soon as one starts insisting upon the blood of children of some shit as payment, she cuts it off entirely and seeks replacement workers.

What would you do? Stop her from her risky work or tolerate it with in reason?

Be paranoid, always stick around her and have sword/axe/hammer at ready to smite shit in case something goes wrong

Sure. Alignment is basically a short code for "here's what motivates the character." In broad strokes LE's like order and are mega self-interested.

That does not, however, tell you anything about how they *act.* They may well love only themselves, but if they show that love by keeping their head down, obeying the law, doing their job, staying in their lane, and staying out of trouble so they can pocket their stipend and spend it on non-problematic bennies for themselves, they would still look and act "good," as well as almost certainly having a positive impact on the people around them which I would easily call a kind of good.

Tolerate? I'd help her (I work for the enlightenment and liberation of all creatures even the squicky ones) *but* she's not allowed to do this shit alone in a corner. It's gotta be done openly, it's gotta be fair, and it's gotta have a lot of eyes on it. If they'll help us build an orphanage *and* listen to a brief sermon from me I will personally guarantee reasonable non-evil feeding as agreed every time. But we are by-God bringing in auditors to make sure it stays up and up.

That's wise. There's been a few hairy moments thanks to a persistent Glabrezu who is adamant to force some deals.

This is a fantastic idea. I play the wizard by the way. I'm going to suggest this to the paladin, who's current reaction has been to try and shut down everything and threaten to kill me. Such behaviour is trying to drive my business into said dark corner while he pretty much sticks his fingers in his ears and says Kill Evil Kill Evil Kill Evil.

It's enjoyable IC drama but gets some OOC niggling too. I'm going to set up shop elsewhere but make sure local paladins know about it and invite them to oversee my proceedings.

I feel like this is a pretty good depiction of what a LG paladin should be in general, not end all be all of course. oaths, gods, backstory, playstyle, etc
youtube.com/watch?v=CCrbT_sJqE4

inb4 edgelord

The trick of being a good paladin is upholding good over law.

That, and being focused and convinced of one's ideals without using them as an excuse to antagonize the rest of the party.

A paladin may always strive for good but not force others to do what he wants the way he wish. He can merely ask other to follow him, not command.

Also, his dedication to good may prevent him to ally himself with evil beings, but nothing prevents him to focus his attention to a greater evil or let his party companions with an open mind strike a deal and simply tag along to make sure of their safety.

despite all this a paladin should never give his oath to an evil creature, nor let evil go unpunished, but he can delay such punishment until he feels ready to confront the source if evil, in the meantime acting as damage control whenever he can.

Only smitebots charge blindly at enemies without considering the greater picture, and even retards understand that a dead paladin is of no use against evil

You don't. You said it yourself there was no alternative so it's not a willingly committed act of evil.

A very presumptuous situation, hardly a "problem".

You sell it immediately as if the wizard is in the right. Like there's no risk what so ever dealing with fiends she always has absolutely under her control for no reason.

explain to me the appeal of paladins

I may be biased since I do play the wizard in question. I'm very aware of the risks these things pose IC and out and ensure that almost every failsafe I can possibly imagine is in place while I oversee the work. The reason I asked in the first place was to try and gauge the reaction to my plan by paladin players. I got a fantastic response here The usual dangers I'm worried about are things like something big and nasty trying to muscle in on what I do, somebody stealing control of my summons or them running rampant. I'm ideally hoping they can work while I am not there, but I know that can invite trouble.

Get a better DM who doesn't enforce edgelord behaviour to progress the story.

Be their handler. Seriously, be the paladin that your employers hired to watch over them.

Have a paladin or two watch over them when you're away, that should be enough.

Have you done your good deeds today Veeky Forums?

Going to bring attention to this again, what should've the paladin done?

I'm not sure, but was fighting the only way of getting in? This doesn't seem like a problem unique to paladins, and more to people who aren't murderhobos.

Don't fall.

Not necessarily, just make sure when you fall you are falling for what you believe to be right

"When the fall is all that's left it matters very much,"

The only one who knows what the pally should have done is them. What the player should have done is quit the game.

There is no conceivable way that re-routing a river to destroy a cave ecosystem and murder innocents is the only, or even the easiest, way to kill 6 guys in slave-made armor, and short of some *extremely* unlikely landscape it still wouldn't work because you'd have to dig the trench right up to the front door guarded by the people you can't beat.

It's just a stupid game of would-you-rather designed to pick a fight in the party and if there's a "right" thing to do here it's not encourage it.

As a player I avoid being 'lawful good' on principle, as it and chaotic neutral are probably the two largest alignments with the most varried definition. In my opinion, Clerics and Paladins are all default Lawful simply because they follow the codes and conducts of their god, but as a general consensus, that's not what other players seem to think.

The two greatest paladins I've seen were...

>Neutral Good Paladin of Sune
Sune's the goddess of love and beauty, so this man was all about smoozing and buttering townspeople up. He went half the campaign wrapping npcs around his fingers and every time a npc (male or female) got especially flirtatious in a closed room he'd ask the DM to fade to black. Halfway through the campaign we discovered this bro had been chemically castrated and made into a eunich slave at birth. All the 'sexy time' he had with ladies was limited to massages aided with lay-on-hands, and he was asexual in general. Apparently he just liked showing them a good time.

>Lawful Neutral Paladin of Hoar
This one was mine. Hoar's a lesser god of revenge or 'poetic justice' so my paladin traveled the land getting paid to bring justice to most people's problems. Standard adventurer is standard. The great thing about this was our DM was into 'shades of grey', so usually everyone we met did something wrong at some point in the campaign. My paladin kept a journal of these things and on his off-time, he'd pay back their debts. I did things like buy a cow for a farmer who sheltered the party and give candy to kids after they gave us information, but I also did shenanigans like purify an inn's wine barrels for refusing to serve one of our party members and swapped wine glasses with a noble after realizing he was trying to poison me. After my relatively unimpressive sleight of hand check the man decided he'd rather stay sober during our talk. Que my much more impressive intimidation roll. For some reason our party decided to skip town shortly after.

Take time. To the other players this was an encounter that could be solved in a number of hours. To the paladin, he'd have to solve this same encounter over perhaps a number of days. It's doubtful the other players would wait that long.

That out of the way... Do they ever leave? How many days food do they have? Is there another way out/in? Are they open to negotiation? Etc.

Also, are these slave's deaths worth the deaths of the slavers?

Don't participate, state your objection, leave the area.

>Powder Keg of Justice
This has inspired me to make my next character, regardless of setting, a fucking Paladin.

I'm playing a Cleric of Kord so I don't really belong here, but it's a damn fun character and I love paladin/cleric armor styles.

Our drow paladin wears shades.

Is holy light considered sunlight?