Which side ultimately "good" or "just"?

Not chaos, never chaos, the fact that chaos prayed upon humanity before the psyker out burst is testament of it.

Yeah but who is the least assholish?

>free chaotic legions
You know what happens to a Chaos cultist who disobeys a stronger Chaos cultist?
Roughly the same thing that happens to an Imperium civilian who disobeys their superiors, only with more tentacles or a rustier chainsword.

The Tau.

>the free chaotic legions

Explain the slaves, then.

Freedom does not necessarily equal good.

>they're not truly evil!
>even though they have evil intentions and no acts of good ever came about from them

If it smells like a duck, looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, it's probably evil.

>their gods ( or at least two of them) are not truly evil
If not evil they can be utterly cruel for no reason.

This is a meme

>they can be utterly cruel for no reason.

That's called being evil.

It's for your own good, son.

Nurgle and Tzeentch aren't evil.

This is retarded. The Chaotic Legions are evil. End of story.

People love blowing out of proportion exactly how shitty the Imperium is. For every odd chance of being invaded and destroyed, every battle that takes place on a planet and ends it, there are thousands upon thousands that that -doesn't- happen to. Scores upon scores of people die in the Imperium. Some do because of the Great Enemy, or Orks, or Eldar, some do because of corrupt Governors.

But so many more than that live. They live normal lives, they drink booze, they eat food, they have sex. They go to work and have a warm bed to sleep in at night. Life, not even in 40K, is constant pain and suffering.

Unless you get captured by Daemons, who go specifically out of their way to -make- life constant pain and suffering.

So there. The Daemons are evil. Their intentions are to cause suffering. The Imperium is good. Their intentions are to create a better society.

The Night Lords. Because they reject Chaos (most of them), and are fighting the Imperium because it is corrupt.

Im sure there are other warbands that fit this description too. None of the loyalists can be considered good or just. They take orders and do the bidding of a sick institution.

Everybody thinks they're right in a war.

B A S E D L O R G A R
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L
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Strangely enough the imperium, if the imperium weren't the kind of assholes they're know for the tau would still invade imperial space, the necrons would still annihilate everyone near them because they consider everything a plague, the eldars/deldars would still kill people because DUR WE USED TO RULE THE STARS, orks be orks, tyranids because tyranids, chaos because we're are gonna fuck you bad because that's my fetish.

>Scores upon scores of people die in the Imperium

Wow. That many?

>But so many more than that live. They live normal lives, they drink booze, they eat food, they have sex. They go to work and have a warm bed to sleep in at night. Life, not even in 40K, is constant pain and suffering.

Boooooorrrring.

And in that whitewash you completely neglected to mention the all-pervasive oppression of the Ecclesiarchy, the treatment of psykers, the treatment of mutants, the lack of basic freedoms and human rights, and all the other shit that you'd expect from an exaggerated parody of Medieval Europe meets 1984 in space, with chainswords.

The same night lords that kill innocents and festoon themselves with sfresh smulls and entrails to terrorize their enemies? Yeah, no.

And just think, Chaos is EVEN WORSE.

He looks like Mr. Clean

It's still better than Hellraiser cenobites meet David Bowie's mentally challenged cousin on an entire mountain of filthy cocaine in space, with chainswords.

Then it's settled.

The irony here being that the "free" chaos legions are more enslaved than anyone in the Imperium has ever been.

>Destroy, for the sake of Destruction
>Kill, for the sake of Killing

>Let no good deed go unpunished.
>Let no evil deed go unrewarded.

Obviously the Imperium is the bad guy. Not the ones who call themselves evil and rape babies.

...

>The irony here being that the "free" chaos legions are more enslaved than anyone in the Imperium has ever been.
Ehh.

EHHHHHH

That's arguable.

Chaos has more of an upside than Imperium. Better perks too.

One is like slamming your fingers in car doors and the other is throwing yourself repeatedly into a cactus. Both equally stupid and unfun.

...

>language doesn't evolve

What a retard. Guess we should all just use medieval language and only the archaic definitions in the dictionary. Regardless of the roots of the word freedom, SOMETHING had to exist as the English word for the concept of being free.

It's hilarious how stupid Chaosfags are. The only free Chaos worshippers are Malalites. Everyone else is just an unwitting slave to their patron deity. Why do you think both Abaddon and Be'lakor rebelled despite their many gifts and status.

If we're keeping to the original grimdark atmosphere of the setting, then this question is more or less pointless. The Imperium (as it is 'now') and the Forces of Chaos are merely two different flavors of madness, suffering, violence, and toil. Which type of madness is better? It depends on individual preference. I'd personally throw my lot in with the Imperium's brand of crazy, but that's only because I prefer Order.

They claim that they will treat humans equally. Yet they insist on calling humans gue'la, not humans. A practise which always strikes me as insulting (at least the Eldar are openly dicks). Their claimed equality can never be anything but a lie while they maintain that attitude.

Plus the Tau are simply doomed in the long run. If the Imperium beats the Nids, the Imperium squashes the Tau. If the nids win, the Tau get eaten. If anyone else wipes out both the Imperium and Nids, they aren't going to be leaving the Tau alone.

the point of 40k is that there are no good guys and everything sucks so the answer is your big fat mama

Because none of that qualifies as being in even the same ballpark of evil as the Daemons.

In short, the fact that you seriously believe bringing up your retarded equal rights arguments in to a conversation comparing the society that does those things to one that indiscriminately skins people alive literally for fun means you're either as short-sighted as you are annoying, or you're taking the piss.

I'm an optimist, so I'll assume the latter.

Isn't Gue'La the word for Human in Tau?

>Why do you think both Abaddon and Be'lakor rebelled despite their many gifts and status.

Abaddon has the willpower to resist the Chaos Gods and he retains his freewill. Abaddon wants to acend as the Emperor of the Dark Imperium and the Chaos Gods desire to destroy reality. Their end goals run counter to each other.

Be'lakor simply wants to become the one and true god of the Warp by usurping the Chaos Gods because he is a devil-expy.

Do chaos marines (or at least chaos bosses) get free daemon waifus?
If so, they are better off.

Do they "get" daemon waifus?

Irrelevant question.

If you're a chaos marine, you'll just take what you want and rape what you like.

Chaos is the emotional reflection of the living beings in the universe of 40k. While chaos is ultimately corrupting, concepts such as evil, if applied to it, are only reflections of what the universe holds.

And the Imperium, vying only with the Orks for the most populos species in the galaxy, are responsible for a large portion of the nature of chaos. And even then, Orks really only do things that fuel Khorne, they, with very few exceptions, do not act in any way that furthers the nature of Tz, Nurgle, or Slaanesh.

Thus, we can conclude that humanity is responsible for a large portion of the nature of the chaos gods, and that if the chaos gods are evil, then it follows that it is because humanity is evil.

Take Khorne, for example, a being of pure violence and bloodshed. His creed is almost entirely derived from both the Orks love of random violence and the Imperium's unflinching hatred of everything that isn't human(and quite a few things that are).

If every single warrior, Ork, human, and let's just throw the Eldar in there, were to one day decide, from the bottom of their souls, that honorable combat was the way the wars of the universe should be fought, Khorne would become a beacon of honorable conflict, a creed bound general who would only engage his enemies in the most rule laden duels.

The other gods follow suit in this fashion: they are defined by the nature of the humanity, and if humans chose to become better people with true intent, then so too would the chaos gods become better.

Neither.

That's the whole point of 40K retard.

Powerful Daemons fuck rank and file chaos marines in the ass for fun. They aren't going to serve mortals unless their patron forces them to or they have some sort of scheme they are trying to pull off by doing so.

Slaanesh was created and shaped entirely by the Eldar, so that entire wall of text falls flat on its face from the get go.

Their sole contribution to the galaxy is widespread misery and murder. You're a retard if you don't think they are evil.

Neither

Nah. Chaos Gods are ideas. They do nt' come form humans being evil. They come from humans understanding it. It's not about desire, or even intent. It's literally whether or not you've thought about the idea of hurting someone that creates Khorne. As it happens, a lot of people have violent thoughts, ones they would never act upon because they are not evil.

Those come together to make Khorne.

So yeah. Get that reflection bullshit out of here. The Great Enemy are the results of nigh uncontrollable, sub-conscious emotions and ideas that have no actual bearing on what humanity as a whole is like, so much as what commonly runs through the mind of Humanity, Eldar, and Orks on a day-to-day basis.

Is it really that surprising, then, that it basically boils down to Sex, Violence, Trivia, and Laziness?

Nope! So yeah. Get that "Humanity is evil because chaos is evil" shit outta here.

To showcase why Chaos isn't any more evil than the Imperium, let's talk about it's worshippers.

The most common thing I hear people talk about is why they don't understand why anyone would worship Chaos. Chaos will sacrifice them, will see them brutally murdered, will trick them, abuse them, and overall use them up until there's nothing left. And all of this is absolutely true.

But the thing is, so does the Imperium. Every crime that Chaos and it's worshippers can be blamed for, so too can an equally vile crime be found committed by the Imperium. And it uses it's worshipers up just as callously and brutally as any Chaos warlord ever has.

But here's the thing: Chaos gives you a chance. It might be a minute chance, one against an insanely large number, but the chance is there for anyone to risk. Any single Chaos cultist can rise to greatness, can become a powerful sorcerer, a famed warrior, or a feared general. If you are strong enough, smart enough, and lucky enough, you can even become powerful enough to even be rewarded by the gods themselves.

The Imperium gives no such rewards, offers no such chance. The Imperium will sacrifice your life and expect you to be thankful for doing so, and label you a heretic for ever suggesting you could better yourself.

That's what Chaos offers, and why people worship it.

>And even then, Orks really only do things that fuel Khorne,

Weird spelling of Gork and Mork, that is.

Yeah, Chaos as a whole is just one big Survival of the Fittest nightmare. Daemon, Marine, there's no rights or reasoning, it's just whoever can hold down the other and take what they want from them.

>But here's the thing: Chaos gives you a chance. It might be a minute chance, one against an insanely large number, but the chance is there for anyone to risk. Any single Chaos cultist can rise to greatness, can become a powerful sorcerer, a famed warrior, or a feared general. If you are strong enough, smart enough, and lucky enough, you can even become powerful enough to even be rewarded by the gods themselves.

>The Imperium gives no such rewards, offers no such chance. The Imperium will sacrifice your life and expect you to be thankful for doing so, and label you a heretic for ever suggesting you could better yourself.
I don't understand how the Imperial Guard works, the post.
If you're strong, smart, or lucky in the Imperium, you can end up as a new planet's nobility, and all it takes is surviving long enough in the Guard.

thats just the illusion of chaos. the reality is cultists are nothing more than fodder and tools

Got to admit, that description alone sounds pretty fucking metal.

Bhahahaahha, and here we have straight up lies. Grade A Heresy.

>
But the thing is, so does the Imperium. Every crime that Chaos and it's worshippers can be blamed for, so too can an equally vile crime be found committed by the Imperium.

No.

> Any single Chaos cultist can rise to greatness, can become a powerful sorcerer, a famed warrior, or a feared general.

I.e. you've never actually read about any famous Generals, Soldiers, Psykers, Commissars, or Space Marines long enough to see where they came from.

Try harder, Chaosfag.

Neither. The Imperium isn't even a necessary evil, consider how many dominoes had to fall into place to make it the only option.

40k is a bad end that people are living in.

And let's not forget how the Imperium does so much to fuel the very enemy it claims to fight.

Every action they take against chaos only serves to fuel them, every religious genocide of the local populations, the unreasonable demands, and the dogmatic obedience they request only serves to fuel hate, resentment, and the fans of worship of Chaos. And this only touches on when the Imperium actually does things with honest intentions. What of the politically motivated, the greedy, the foolish, and the short sighted? How much damage does the Imperium do to itself because it can not curb it's own leaders?

And when the Inquisitors arrive, their often heavy handed methods and pointless bloodshed only serve to create more fear and hatred. Inquisitors do not find chaos, they breed it.

Every action the Imperium justifies to destroy Chaos cults only serves to create more. Every heavy handed method they employ always fails, in the long run. And the harder they fight against Chaos, the more they hate it, the strongest they make it, because it's nothing more than a reflection of themselves.

Chaos is really just one big pyramid scheme. So they are evil.

>oppression of the ecchlesiarchy
Only where their presence is strongest. Most world are no different than real countries where people go to church on Sundays and tithe a little.

>treatment of psykers
Oh no, we are stringent with an unstable and very dangerous anomalous human that occurs at a rate of 0.000001 births. We should hold hands and let them do whatever because that never had catastrophic consequences in humanities past.

>mutants
A sad aspect but most governments cannot tell the difference between chaos corruption and genetic damage from radiation or toxins. Leave it alone however and you get either three-eyed fish babies or gibbering piles of demonic flesh destroying your world. Can't risk it.

>human rights
Entirely based on the world. The imperium doesn't dictate life for every citizen. Pay tithes and don't support traitors you can run your planet however you see fit.

At the end of the day it's the best they believe they can really do to preserve humanity.

As far as a I can tell, one side tells you it's good, but then bends you over and fucks you. The other tells you it's going in dry and then does it. Yeah, the chaos cock has spiked in it, but the imperial cock is so wide it's gonna cut you in half

Correct, but the concept is the same. Slaanesh was born out of the reflection of the Eldar's subconscious souls and desires. I highly doubt it sustains itself solely though Eldar emotions anymore, given their relative rarity and their steps taken to prevent themselves from empowering the god.

At this point, humanity is it's primary "food source", so to say.

The gods are fueled by more than simple natures though. Khorne is the hardest example because he doesn't have any easy things to point too, but it's still about conscious actions.

Tz's love of plotting, Slaanesh's desire for perfection, Nurgle's want to avoid death, these are all examples of a being's conscious thoughts shaping the nature of the gods. Khorne's is more unthinking violence, but that's because the Imperium and Orks also put forth unthinking violence. If they approached violence in a different matter, so too would Khorne.

As far as I've seen no patron forces demons into service for another, you have to do it yourself. If you aren't a bad enough dude to summon and bind a daemon waifu then you just get to be a lonely slave cultist doomed to a miserable life a toil and pain while your betters sup on your agony.

There's a million reasons why that's wrong. What about the guard that don't free planets, or the ones that fight on planets unsuitable for life? What about the are called to fight to take planets already claimed by others, be it the Mechanius, the administratium, or any of the other organizations?

And even then, it's pretty much assured that the regiment's officers, almost always already related to nobility, that will actually form the new government. The rank and file can expect at most a simple life as a commoner, if they're even allowed to settle at all.

That reward is very rarely carried out with any real intention of reward. Hell, most often it's simply the most expedient way to settle the planet, rather than any offering to the guardsmen themselves.

They absolutely are, but how is that any different for the Imperium?

And it's not an illusion, because it's absolutely possible. The trick is, it requires the cultist himself to take initiative, and he may fuck up along the way.

Could you not see Tz rewarding a cultist who plots against his overlord, delighting in the overturning of their respective positions?

Or Slaanesh rewarding a cultist who's sheer appetite outshines the most powerful of it's champions?

No, even the lowest cultist can rise to the highest position, even attaining daemonhood if they are driven enough.

Most of those champions or generals had the Imperium's support from the start, or were already trained and elite warriors.

And more than that, how many great heroes of the Imperium died unsung or even reviled, their glory stolen and intentions subverted by those that would see them ruined before they saw the Imperium bettered.

Now sure, you can argue that Chaos does that just as much, but so what? I'm not claiming that Chaos is any better, I'm simply pointing out that the Imperium is just as worse.

>There's a million reasons why that's wrong. What about the guard that don't free planets, or the ones that fight on planets unsuitable for life? What about the are called to fight to take planets already claimed by others, be it the Mechanius, the administratium, or any of the other organizations?
>And even then, it's pretty much assured that the regiment's officers, almost always already related to nobility, that will actually form the new government. The rank and file can expect at most a simple life as a commoner, if they're even allowed to settle at all.
>That reward is very rarely carried out with any real intention of reward. Hell, most often it's simply the most expedient way to settle the planet, rather than any offering to the guardsmen themselves.
What about the cultists slated to be cockwarmers? What about the ones who become impromptu weapon testers? What about the ones killed for looking at something funny? What about the ones who kill themselves because they caught a glimpse of something?
The Imperial guard who settle a planet become the elite of that planet.

>And it's not an illusion, because it's absolutely possible. The trick is, it requires the cultist himself to take initiative, and he may fuck up along the way.

>Could you not see Tz rewarding a cultist who plots against his overlord, delighting in the overturning of their respective positions?

>Or Slaanesh rewarding a cultist who's sheer appetite outshines the most powerful of it's champions?

>No, even the lowest cultist can rise to the highest position, even attaining daemonhood if they are driven enough.

Those kinds of cultists draw the attention of things that can and do kill them just for drawing attention. Someone who outshines his superiors ends up getting a tentacle shoved in one end until it bursts out the other.

It's FFG, but have you ever read the campaign book about when the PCs are supposed to go to a mining world?

Long story short, there's this mining world that produces a lot of important metals for the mechanius. To get these metals, the reigning nobility use hard labor, without anything but the barest minimum of tools.

Hard labor isn't merely the norm, it's the life and death of every non-Imperial connected citizen on the planet. They live and die in and around their mines, provided only the barest minimum of what is needed to keep them alive, and even then, not always.

So in comes this one noble, who kind of gives a shit. And he decides he's going to make the world a better place, mostly by industrializing the mining operations. The other nobles laugh him off, thinking him a fool, and laugh even harder when he spends his first year in the red due to his debts for the mining tools he obtains from the mechanius.

And then he starts putting up profits fives times he was before, shipment after shipment.

The rest of the nobility is furious and terrified. His methods are alien and unthinkable, and yet he's succeeding. So of course, they decide to kill him.

Inquisition gets involved the resulting mess, and they fake his death, then leave him to rot in a prison for decades for daring to disrupt the order of an Imperial world.

Later on, the PCs need to find some mutants connected to the original fiasco, so their Inquisitor has them take the man to the planet, promising him to restore him to his previous status and holdings, perhaps even be given control of the world. And so he helps you, as much to help the people as he does to gain his power back.

And when it's all finished, job done, mutants purged(along with a huge amount of the local populace in the resulting zombie uprising), the PCs are supposed to ask what's to be done with the former noble.

And all you're told is "Execute him."

And this is the normal life on many of the Imperium's worlds.

>Now sure, you can argue that Chaos does that just as much, but so what? I'm not claiming that Chaos is any better, I'm simply pointing out that the Imperium is just as worse.

Unless he has the smarts or strength or drive to avoid that fate, which is the point.

Isn't that literally the story of one of the Primarchs? Or pretty much the same thing?

If he has the smarts or strength or drive to avoid death at the hands of things that objectively have more smarts, strength, and drive than any one individual human could ever have, then he could have done better in the Imperium and not have to worry about all of his supposed "allies" killing him for sport.

>Libtard thinks that human rights aren't exclusive to privileged first worlders.
Color me suprised
Also lad, when you actually live a hairs thread from eternal punishment and horror, you will flock in earnest to the commissar and ecclesiarch who at least won't kill you because the wind changed.

Fulgrim on Chemos.

Except without the execution at the end.

>Like the Dark Gods they serve, the Daemons are generous with their gifts, whether the recipient wishes to receive them or no. Nurgle’s minions spread plague not to bring suffering and despair, but because they are driven to do so by the dark spark of divine essence within them. They cannot conceive of why their diseases should cause such dismay amongst their victims, for a Daemon of Nurgle finds nothing more joyous than to be afflicted by pox or pestilence. Daemons of Slaanesh revel in excess, and the torment they bring is — as far as they are concerned — the most philanthropic of blessings. Similarly, Tzeentch’s Daemons subvert and mutate the natural order not out of cruelty, but are motivated by a combination of their own easily provoked boredom and the assumption that their victims must similarly be driven to ennui by their static and staid existences — something instantly cured by the mutating gift of change. Only Daemons of Khorne are truly selfish, ever seeking to claim skulls for the Skull Throne and so rise to higher status in their dread master’s eyes.

>In this way, Daemons are akin to malicious children who possess a box of fascinating toys that are fragile by nature but unlimited in number. After all, in its own way, the mortal world is as resilient as the Realm of Chaos. A city humbled by plague or broken by war will inevitably recover; a mortal army torn to bloody ruin by fang, blade and claw or blasted apart by sorcery will soon be replenished or replaced. This may take hundreds of years and cost untold thousands of lives along the way, but Daemons don’t reckon time as mortals do, and inevitably find something else to draw their interest in the meantime. If the Daemons even comprehend the harm they are causing, they most certainly do not care.

-Chaos daemons army book 8th ED

Chaos is not evil. Chaos is just...is.

How do you miss the point this hard?

Hardly, the Imperium almost never gives any chance for true advancement. The notable regiments of guard that actually allow a man to climb the ranks is specifically notable for that. 99.999% of regular guardsmen, to use an example, will never advance past their post no matter how great they are.

>47884049
I knew it sounded familiar. Also close to that one Rogue Trader who would send a crew to a mining planet too close to the sun, and just as the sun would burn everything, he'd shuttle out all the minerals. Then come back with a new crew to replace the burnt one.

Pretty much the same thing. I don't know if it was on purpose or was just a fluke, but it was clearly meant to show that the Imperium, and the Inquisition, often give no shits about improving the Imperium more than they do at maintaining the status quo no matter the cost.

Someone smart, strong, and driven enough to outplay demons long enough to advance within chaos without becoming someone else's fleshtoy could do it. They could advance within a civilian job, root out enough heresy to attract inquisitorial attention, then just rank up in the inquisition.
With chaos, you're contending with enemies and "allies" who can and will kill you or worse for any or no reason. With the Imperium, you only have to worry about your allies if you actually fuck up.

Hardly. Do you think no one in the Imperium won't kill you for simply because they don't like you, or they think you're doing too good of a job, or they have some dispute over the very minor difference in the creed of the God Emperor you follow?

Never mind the fact that there's often simply no advancement to be had in the Imperium's jobs. 23 hours had a great segment where a man's only occupation was data entry into a computer, all day, every day. His only job was simply to enter text into a computer, copying what others had written. He interacted with no one, dealt with no one, and didn't even really have a social life. He simply entered text in an empty room, and had been doing so his entire life.

How would he ever advance in his position? Who would he impress? Hell, who would ever take the slightest notice of him?

> but the Imperium's shot-callers are true believers in the cause.

lol wut, have you ever read a paragraph about the high lords? they don't give a fuck, they only care about themselves, you get the occasional one who cares about the imperium at large but almost all of them are out for their own personal gain.

Again, someone who is smart, strong, and driven enough to outplay demons can outplay other humans far easier.
If this theoretical cultist can advance within chaos unmolested, they can find someone to sell out to the big I or find someone they can suck up to enough to advance, or find a criminal cartel they can join and raise up in, or stow away on a ship and join its crew, or join the echlesiarchy, or do an infinite number of things to improve his situation.
If he's not good enough to advance in the Imperium, then there's no way he would advance in Chaos, because the conditions are the same, but the competition is far worse.

>ITT apologists

Its the grim darkness of the 41st millennium. Neither of them are good or just. They're both part of a deeply intertwined and codependent soul reaping galaxy wide hellhole. The imperium might have ends justifying the means, but their ends actually fuel their own downfall, that's the tragic part. The forces of chaos might have a path to freeing themselves from the oppressive shackles of human tyranny, but in the end replace them with an even more horrific eternal circumstance. That's the tragic part.

No one wins, everyone is fucked, its all evil and unjust. Once you get into human sacrifice of the thousands/millions/whatever daily on both sides the degrees aren't super meaningful.

So choose the side that comes with Space Cocaine, Daemonette Blowjobs, and the best rock and roll in history.

>High Lords
>out for personal gain
There's no more ladders to climb.

But you can always fall.

At that position everyone is looking to take your place.

That's not personal gain. That's self preservation.

Not even a remote chance you're going to get any of that beyond just enough to lure you into being a sacrifice. The imperium has nice stuff too, its that both sides aren't about anything resembling fair distribution.

also rock and roll is for dads

There's always getting a leg up on the other High Lords.

Politics is never stagnant.

And if I reap massive benifits from preserving myself at the top of the ladder while murdering and exploiting billions I do it for the good of Humanity amirite?

underrated post

*tips*

>Always
>Never
You think like a fucking dog

Could be for the good of Humanity, depends. In the general case of non-chaos-corrupted High Lords I would say yes it's for the good

Great argument, retard.