Dwarves in fantasy

>He doesn't know about the chimpscarade

They don't tend to be great in the "really good with a blade" sense, they tend to be strong, tough, fearless, and well equipped - if anything, the general view of dwarves is more as soldiers, not warriors

Do you think dwarves would be less good at throwing shit?
IIRC, chimps absolutely suck at throwing stuff, despite their much stronger arm strength

From Tolkien. He introduces his dwarves in The Hobbit as sturdy, hardy fighters who wield mattocks, branching out to the more classic axe with Gimli in LotR and talking more about what tough fighters dwarves are in the Silmarillion.

In myth and folklore, dwarves are not great fighters. In fact, they're frequently overpowered by human fighters, like King Svafrlami, Sigurd, and Dietrich von Berne. In medieval romances they're even frequently mentioned as being deformed, having hunched backs or clubbed feet or something similar. Instead they're very magical, usually deal with their problems by using magic to hide and escape, make a magic item that addressed the problem, or just cursing the shit out of the humans that abuse them.

The only legendary example I can think of a dwarf who's a good fighter is the Alpine dwarf king Laurin, who shows up in the stories of Dietrich von Berne. He's noted for regularly fighting and overcoming humans, but only because he is laden with a magical belt that doubles his strength and magic armor that cannot be pierced. Once Dietrich steals the belt, Laurin is helpless against the human-sized warrior, who disables and pins him as easily as he would a child.

>hardy fighters who wield mattocks
Pretty badass tbqh

Makes sense, considering arm length and height are very important for distance throwing and power. The fact that their armor is often portrayed as being clunky rather than mobile reflects this.

Yeah. And, as far as I'm aware, no fantasy author before Tolkien and CS Lewis depicted dwarves as physically tough, skilled warriors.

And I think the key detail is that these dorfs were doing well for the same reasons the Romans could do well against the Barbarian Hordes; discipline, equipment, training, and discipline. We see them at their best in mass formations during pitched battle.

It also helps that they were often part of a coalition with Humans and elves, who could excel in other areas (light infantry, cavalry, etc), so the Dwarves only had to be one part of a larger machine.

Gimli and Thorin are both depicted as being excellent individual fighters as well.

>w since dwarves are generally smarter than chimpanzees and can use tools, weapons and armor and martial arts
That's exactly why chimpanzees are so strong. They spend less energy on "precise controling" aspect of their muscles.
You can be dexterous enough to be able to carefully manipulate things.
You can wreck shit with little control
You can't really have both.

Of course, this is fantasy so whatever, but then, who cares about the reach and height disadvantage?

>have "dwarf" mountain goatmen as a race they are dwarf goats as well as goat dwarves
>they only care about mining because they crave the mineral
>hoard a shitload of supplies in the empty mineshafts because what else are you gonna use them for anyway
>build villages on slopes too steep to reach for anyone who isn't a dwarf
>everyone who has ever laid siege to a dwarf village has made up completely over the top lies about the Mighty Dwarven Warriors to hide the fact that they just couldn't reach them
>dwarven merchants help spread these tales so nobody ever gets the idea to fuck with dwarves

and that's how Baahlduin Saltaxe became famous for killing 40 knights with one swing of his axe.

True. And largely unconventional warfare; eg. Motherfuckin Smaug, wrecked their assholes.

Both are paragons of their people. That said they are examples of what dwarves are capable of at their best. Thorin was kinda the baddest dude in a crew of 13 bad(ish) dudes.

To be fair, Smaug is Smaug, he's incredibly hard to deal with

Overall, barring a handful of exceptional individuals like mentions, which every race gets (even hobbits), I agree with - in general, dwarves' strengths lie in pitched battles, formation warfare, sieges, equipment and discipline

Actually, does anyone have any pictures of massed ranks/armies of dwarves?

Is there any indication that they're paragons, as opposed to just competent fighters? I mean, we don't get a lot of talk about dwarvish formations in The Hobbit. Tolkien's emphasis is on A)their physical hardiness, B) their extremely good armor and C) their fearsome weapons. After that he doesn't talk much about their tactics. In the Silmarillion he focuses on their armor rendering them resistant to heat, the powerful blows of their axes against Glaurung and his dragons' hide, Azgahal's tenacity in surviving long enough to badly would Galurung and force him from the field, and finally in how fearsome the dwarves are as they bear Azgahal's body away to the point that nobody messes with them.

That all suggests that the traits Thorin and Gimli display, their skill with weapons, their strength, their endurance, are all typical of dwarvish warriors.

In The Broken Sword they don't seem to be bad as such. The book just makes it clear stunty guys with axes don't have a chance against elves with bows and spears in the open if they fought.

The Romans didn't have much reach with their little Spanish swords, and they did alright.

Hobbit pre-dates The Broken Sword too, which still gives us Tolkien as the earliest example of dwarves as great warriors.

same way Charlemange is a typical example of a French warrior, who totally aren't cowards btw u guis pls believe me

>Where does the "dwarves are great fighters" stereotype come from?

Gimli. Fantasy dwarves are mostly Gimli: The Race.

Granted, the kit of the great warriors we see in such instances is gonna be a lot better than average, although at the same time, The Hobbit and other sources suggest that they typically field forces who are well armed and armored.

I can only imagine the elites like your Gimli and Thorin and his companions would be much better off. You'd be hard pressed to even find a bow that would do more than piss them off because of the quality of Dwarvish work.

Afterall, their idea of a "princely" hauberk is one that's seemingly impenetrable to earthly forces. Even if they've come down a bit good look finding the creature that can actually pierce even the lesser works more widely available.

Some of the best things they have hoarded away might be that good or nearly as good.

Maybe only a Dragon's fangs or a Balrog's sword can pierce them.

So you'd be fucked if you got in a fight with an experienced, seasoned Dwarf noble in armor like that. You'd have like, blunt trauma, and he'd be kicking your ass all around the field with a good chance of penetrating or doing a lot of blunt trauma through your armor too.

To be the Devil's Advocate, the dwarves contested against goblins, who were stunted and bow legged.

>Charlemagne
>French

You either successfully triggered me or built a comment that was wrong on as many levels as possible.

Francia eventually turned to France, user. Yeah, he was probably born in what is currently modern Germany or Belgium, but he was still the King of the Franks. Franks, French, they are pretty closely related.

How do you like your dwarves?

Except Thorin wears no armor for most of the Hobbit, and his most impressive feats (holding off three trolls at once, landing an ace bowshot, holding off the goblin hordes with Gandalf) happen earlier in the book. He gets armor for the Battle of Five Armies, but we don't hear many specifics about him in that battle, just that he fights very well and leads a big charge. Gimil does have armor in LotR, but just a chainmail vest for travel. In Rohan he picks up a helmet and shield as he prepares to go into more serious warfare.

Compare that to the more elaborate gear worn by dwarvish armies in The Hobbit and the Silmarillion. Dain's army is very heavily armed and armored, with metal caps, hauberks, shields, short swords, mattocks, and an elaborate metal hose to protect their legs, showcasing dwarvish metallurgic skills. The dwarves of belegost in the Silmarillion on the other hand wear armor that holds up to dragonfire.

We don't have a lot of evidence of dwarvish noble armor being better than standard dwarvish armor. The "princely hauberk" was a Mithril coat, made explicitly on commission for an elf, not a dwarf. I suppose some of the nobility of Moria might have had mithril hauberks, but most of those were probably lost.

>Where does the "dwarves are great fighters" stereotype come from?

D&D mostly, where early on dwarves were fairly limited in class options.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant#Trunk
Precision and strength are not exclusive. Humans just have fucking terrible muscle strength for land-dwelling mammals of our size, mostly because of how our muscles are attached to our bones and because we're optimized for endurance, not strength.

Gimli is the worst fighter in the Fellowship other than the hobbit. He's actually not much of a warrior at all.

hobbits*

T H I C K

I kind of feel bad for memeing, but I do like that as well

Don't really have much to share but the Weta stuff is pretty great.

There's nothing wrong with it as long as you don't go overboard.

Didn't he kill more Uruks than Legolas at the battle of the Hornburg?

Boromir got himself killed in a fight against Uruk-Hai, and Legolas killed fewer orcs than Gimli. On what are you basing your claim that Gimli is the worst warrior among the three, exactly?

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I recall some user pointing out that given the traditional homes of the dwarves being caves and other narrow labyrinthine dwellings, pikes and spears would be one of the most effective weapons for a short and stout people. In a narrow corridor, a combination of pike phalanxes and shot would be utterly devastating.

Boromir got killed by a enormous band of very well-armed Uruk-hai, and they took heavy losses in the process. Gimli was downright frightened of the Men at the battle of the hornburg and went to kill orcs instead - not uruk-hai, normal orcs who are about hobbit-size

What, if any, is the difference between Uruk-hai and orcs?

Uruk-hai are MUCH bigger, about as big as a human. They aren't afraid of sunlight. They're also much more disciplined. They're the orc warrior caste so to say

Do they have free will or are they mindless like orcs? Could one desert and not want to be a warrior?

They're bigger and better in every way.

That's a possibility for all orcs according to Tolkien, it's just not particularly common as orcs usually hate almost everything to varying degrees with the possible exception of themselves

The Uruk-hai are bloodthirsty as fuck and seem to be legitimately loyal to their masters rather than following their orders out of fear, so probably it would be less likely than with a normal orc

They're effectively Middle Earth's half-orcs, and unlike in standard fantasy, the human actually makes them stronger than a full-blooded orc.

Well, the movie was awful, but that scene was still pretty awesome while it lasted.

...Fuck

Boromir did go down fighting like a boss at least.

What game?

The third Hobbit movie.

oh. any good?

Hahaha, technically Blue Board safe I guess Mei best overwatch waifu

is pretty cool though

>n medieval romances they're even frequently mentioned as being deformed, having hunched backs or clubbed feet or something similar

I think you're confusinh the Northern European mythology dwarf (where Tolkein's idea of dwarves comes from) with the a general descriptive term for tiny malicious humanoids in folklore, like Rumpelstiltzken and the like

If you liked Jackson's other movies, chances are you'll like that one, too.

It's awful, and not even because it's different from the original source.

Haven't seen the extended version, maybe it is less bad but I have little hope.

smaug wrecked everyone's assholes

It took a magic arrow and an exceptional archer to kill him.

That's a mischaracterization. Gimli never said he was frightened of men.

>MUCH bigger

How much bigger? Orcs aren't hobbit or dwarf height, and they're not quite man height. So, what, five foot five or so? A meter and a half? There are plenty of human men in that size range, I think you're exaggerating.

I've still not seen it, but I've seen this scene.
youtube.com/watch?v=TpsFWBzDHkk
And Billy Connolly as a dwarf lord, so it's not all bad

>A meter and a half
>Man
You wish, manlet

It's a little more complicated then that.

On the one hand, you have the Nordic mythological dwarf. On the other hand, there was a continuing tradition that branched out from that as you went further into the Middle Ages. Lots of German romances have stories about underground dwarf kingdoms, including Laurin, who ruled an underground kingdom of dwarves in the Alps. Like the old mythological dwarves these dwarves lived underground and made magical weapons and armor. It was an evolution of the older, more Scandinavian tradition and it eventually evolved into the fair tale dwarf we know today, which you see in stories like Snow White.

Tolkien drew on both. His dwarves incorporate a lot of things from the Nordic dwarves of the Eddas, including a lot of the same names. But the Dwarves of Norse mythology weren't generally said to live in big underground kingdoms. They lived in boulders and the like, usually in small groups, maintaining private forges. They were often treated as chthonic nature spirits, popping in and out of solid stone without the need for a door. In the Eddas and sagas, Gods, kings and heroes sought out these lone dwarf craftsmen to get them to make magical artifacts and weapons, via bribery, payment, or threats. The idea of dwarf kingdoms really kicks in with the Medieval romances, with stories of dwarf kings like Laurin or Goldemar, or King Herla, tough Herla got somewhat conflated with fairies. Still, it was these dwarfes that Tolkie based concepts like Moria or the Lonely Mountain off of, vast underground kingdoms of great wealth and beauty, presided over by diminutive nobles with long beards. The beards thing, it should be noted, was more common in these sorts of stories, and isn't mentioned as much in the older Norse sources.

No, they're literally described as being as tall as Men. And the Men in Middle-Earth are STILL more "magical" than modern people and Easterlings. They're 6ft on average, higher than all but the 3 tallest modern nations or so, with the Dúnedain being even taller with royalty being commonly over 7ft and up to 8 (which is why the people at Bree think Aragorn is kind of freakish)

The most detailed description of Uruk physiology is in The Two Towers, after Boromir's death when Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas inspect the corpses of the orcs that attacked them. They're merely noted as "goblin-soldiers of greater stature" compared to the dead Misty Mountain orcs they also found nearby. It's never said that they're tall as men, just that they carry man-like gear as opposed to the usual orc gear, and it's their gear that Aragorn and the others find most remarkable, not their height.

>Most of them were ordinary men, rather tall and dark-haired, and grim but not particularly evil-looking. But there were some others that were horrible: man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed. Do you know, they reminded me at once of that Southerner at Bree; only he was not so obviously orc-like as most of these were.’
>‘I thought of him too,’ said Aragorn. ‘We had many of these half-orcs to deal with at Helm’s Deep

>look i said manlet again im so cool
You're getting annoying.

Also take in mind that man-high is not just an estimate on Middle-Earth, it's an actual if informal unit of measurement based on how tall the Numenoreans were. It's even where "halfling" came from.

What about Messi? His height doesn't affect his speed and his lower centre of gravity helps his mobility.

Those are the half-orcs, not the Uruks. There's a difference. Half-orcs can pass as human and Saurman created them to use as spies as well as soldiers. Uruks were created by Sauron and, while closer to humans in many ways, were still recognizably a type of orc.

Messi's all around physical fitness would be very hard to reproduce on the ancient world. Even just FEEDING him would be pretty expensive. Unless you bring magic into the question, in which case you may as well have a fucking gymnast dwarf and no one can tell you otherwise

I'm looking for pictures of dwarves, so completely armored as to look like inhuman, metal, environmental suits.

Have anything like that?

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In canon, there were some Uruks who didn't give a zog about Sauron and wanted to run away and become bandits.

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I yield, I yield.

Never should have come here.

all i got

not even a little close

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Since the thread's already halfway derailed into a Tolkien circlejerk take a Belegost dorf

>chimpanzees have a height and reach disadvantage compared to the average human

>an average chimpanzee can still rip the latter apart though from a pure strength perspective

Kind of? Adult male chimps are about 30% stronger then adult male humans. It's a very solid advantage, but one lost to reach disadvantage, height disadvantage and much worse coordination (chimps can't make small, accurate motions like humans can due to how their nerves interact with their muscles.)

If the human avoids grappling, they win. If there's anything in the battle space usable as a weapon, like a stick or fist sized rock, they win.

>Wouldn't they suffer from a pretty important height and reach disadvantage when fighting anything but other dwarves?
Not really, unless the world's currently wanking itself into a torpor over the tercio, like in the late renaissance.

Don't get me wrong, reach is good, but it can be overcome. Don't forget these guys are built like rugby players, only condensed into a smaller volume. It's like ants.

Plus, dwarfs are inherently magical and so no one has to explain shit, at setting maker's discretion.

Chimps can run about as fast as human elite sprinters and have the clear advantage on anything but perfectly open terrain with nothing for them to climb on. They don't really have finesse but I wouldn't want to fight someone whose punches are as strong as a heavyweight boxer's, who can pull even stronger, and who is almost as fast as Usain Bolt

Yeah, and if the chimp isn't in fact a chimp and instead has a weapon...

>Where does the "dwarves are great fighters" stereotype come from?

Gimli in LOTR, which is ironic because he's not really that great of a fighter.

>he's not really that great of a fighter.
Are you kidding?

Compared to Boromir and Aragorn, who are both fucking giants and probably among the strongest people in Middle-Earth, or Legolas who is a Sindar elf-lord?

No.

i dident read his full post i just started to post dwarfs, sorry for trying, i wont be doing it the next time then...

gimli and legolas have a competition to kill orcs at helm's deep and gimli wins

He's better than Legolas, which suggests he has massive, MASSIVE skill superiority, being that he inherently has less speed.

Thanks.

Not by much and Gimli had far better gear.