Sauron

>Sauron's endgame
His "endgame" was to finish what Melkor started, which is an issue because Sauron had a very loose grasp of the plan in the first place. Melkor just wanted to rule his own shit. Plain and simple. He didn't want to play ball with the Valar and didn't have the skill to make anything that wasn't nasty af.

No he didn't idiot. Melkor wanted to tear it all down. destroy everything because he was so bitter he couldn't create. Sauron wanted to rule. Dominate over all life. Sauron wouldn't have cared if Melkor rotted with his plans for the rest of eternity.

Black Numeneoreans

This is it right here.

Morgoth was obsessed with the extremes of creation. Earthquakes, bitter cold, searing heats, destruction. At the same time he wanted to emulate Eru and create things himself, but wasn't allowed to. This translated to a desire to tear creation down and remake it under his own terms, which of course would necessitate killing every living thing in the process.

Sauron didn't want that. Tolkien described Sauron as a misguided reformer, a maia who had all these ideas and plans about how creation could be improved, but none of the other Ainur were interested. Morgoth lent a sympathetic ear, so Sauron fell in with his followers. In time, under Morgoth's influence, Sauron decided the only way to institute his plans was to force them on people, for their own good. So many of Sauron's plans and methods involve domination of others in particular, especially his Ring-plots. After Morgoth's fall Sauron actually saw the error of his ways and wanted to repent, but he was too afraid of punishment and didn't turn himself in.

Instead he went back to his old tricks, assuming the form of Annatar, and trying to use the rings to force the lesser races of Middle-Earth to do what he wanted. He was a massive control freak, and when the living things he wanted to obey his commands refused he turned spiteful and bitter, forgetting that all his plans were originally for their betterment, and so he turned to cruelty and torture. Even then, he never wanted to kill everybody or destroy Middle-Earth. Sauron still wanted to improve things, hence his obsession with industrialization.

Sauron's end game was a Middle-Earth enslaved, a worldwide tyranny where the sky is choked by smog and pollution as his factories run day and night, as all the free races do as ordered, their wills broken.

so you're agreeing with me then?

Are you the guy I was responding to? Then yes.

Rule over the world, forever.

Probably phasing out his orcs for men in his service over time, he seemed to work with them a lot better than Morgoth did.

>And did he have any followers that weren't just mindless orcs or trolls? And lieutenants with brains, things to hope for and ambitions for when he won?

You should read the books.

>Probably phasing out his orcs for men in his service over time, he seemed to work with them a lot better than Morgoth did.

I think, under Sauron, orcs and men would eventually become indistinguishable.

He was really just a big ODC aspie wasn't he? Like the kind of guy who collects toys but never touches them or takes them out of their packages. The kind of guy who has no friends because he can't accept that other people don't think and act exactly like he does, so there must be something wrong with them. Certainly not with himself.

I'm not so sure. It seemed to be Saruman, not Sauron, that all those orc-man hybrid spy things worked for. I suppose its possible, but I'm far from convinced that Sauron would meld the two, and corrupting men that far is probably outside his power, even if he does get the ring back.

>Didnt read silmarillion
>Didnt read the fall of Numenor

Dude he turned the kings of Numenor to Morgoth worship in full and lived as the high priest, its clear did didn't desire true repentance nor had "good intentions" and especially the idea that he didnt desire Morgoth's same ends. In the first age Sauron was the lord of Bats and wolves and was clearly in the "enslave and rule everything" camp.

This idea of a "good intention/bad execution" Sauron is against the very nature of the character, especially since he was based on the powers of Tolkien's times, World War 1 and 2 era and mainly the east, constantly viewed as evil by the British.

And Melkior desired to be ruled and worshiped, ruling as the sole power of middle earth, not destroy everything and try to remake it. He destroyed plenty in the early first age, but that was a war, not his ultimate end game. In the age of the Noldor and their wars against Angband he ruled and clearly enjoyed his position, crushing realms when the time came. He desired dominion and power, none of that "must destroy all life and remake it" bullshit as he couldn't, he didn't posses Eru's fire.

Tolkien basically said in his note that Uruks were the result of orcs being mixed with human stock, and Sauron did it first: Uruks were first seen openly when he sent an army to take Minas Ithil. Olog Hai probably had a similar genesis. Saurman just improved the process, enough to create half-orcs who could serve as spies.

>Tolkien basically said in his note that Uruks were the result of orcs being mixed with human stock

I'm not aware of him saying this anywhere, and that furthermore, "Uruks/Urukhai", "Orc-men" and "man-orcs" are three different things.

> Sauron did it first

True.

> Olog Hai probably had a similar genesis.

Hard to say, really, especially if you believe Treebeard's statement that Trolls were originally derived from ents.

Fucking bait i swear..i can't even be bothered.

/v/irgin here. Were the men of Carn Dûm a thing in the books?

yes

Yes and no.

They definitely were around in the books.Carn Dum was the capital of Angmar, a kingdom the Witch-King ruled over.

However, Angmar fell shortly after the successor kingdoms to Arnor did, and that was like 1,200 years before the books, give or take.

There are probably still some people living up there, but I doubt it would be many, and there's no evidence of any organized kingdoms or stuff.

>didn't read Morgoth's Ring
Sauron was of course not 'evil' in origin. He was a 'spirit' corrupted by the Prime Dark Lord (the Prime sub-creative Rebel) Morgoth. He was given an opportunity of repentance, when Morgoth was overcome, but could not face the humiliation of recantation, and suing for pardon; and so his temporary turn to good and 'benevolence' ended in a greater relapse, until he became the main representative of Evil of later ages. But at the beginning of the Second Age he was still beautiful to look at, or could still assume a beautiful visible shape – and was not indeed wholly evil, not unless all 'reformers' who want to hurry up with 'reconstruction' and 'reorganization' are wholly evil, even before pride and the lust to exert their will eat them up.

As for turning Numenor to Morgoth worship, I feel that was twofold. One, he wanted to fuck Numenor over as much as he could which is also why he eventually sent them on a suicide mission to Valinor. He knew full well they couldn't win that. He just wanted Numenor gone. Two, Sauron ended his service to Morgoth with betrayal. He knows he might end up in the void himself some day, so promoting Morgoth worship is covering his ass.

That's just head cannon, though. In the end, Sauron's goals and Morgoth's goals as described by Tolkien are incompatible. It's unclear why Sauron promoted Morgoth cults.

Treebeard was the one to claim that Uruks were part human, Aragorn observing that they used human-esque gear certainly pointed that way, and then there's this:

>Finally, there is a cogent point, though horrible to relate. It became clear in time that undoubted men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Man-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile.

The meaning here is not super clear, but I'd say it certainly points to the Uruk Hai on the one hand and Saurman's half-orcs on the other.

the Ubermensch

>>Veeky Forums

piss off fuckface

huh. i never really imagined them having a legionaire look before.

Sorry this pushed yet another "elf slave wat do" thread off the board.

Yes, he was Veeky Forums

>corrupting men that far is probably outside his power

The entire point of Men is they are by far the easiest race to corrupt.

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in Mordor. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
And on the pedestal these words appear:
'My name is Sauron, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away."

Actually sums up Sauron's personality pretty well.

Pretension to domination really was his primary motivation.

The movies really didn't catch the look of much of middle earth well
The rohirrim were fine, but gondor had way too advanced armour (which somehow didn't protect them from arrows though)
If you know something about arms and armour it's a bit cringy to watch, but at least it looks cool

Corrupt in terms of having them sell out Illuvatar for power: Yes.

Corrupt as in turning their fea into something else? Hell no.

>If you know something about arms and armour it's a bit cringy to watch, but at least it looks cool

Yeah, Middle-Earth's technology was basically late Migration Period or Early Medieval at best; their swords were all one-handed (didn't have the metallurgical knowledge for longer, thinner blades) weapons akin to Viking swords or early medieval cruciform swords, maille was the highest level of protection that they had, and crossbows didn't quite exist yet or if they did then they weren't particularly common or widespread compared to traditional archers.
It's honestly kinda impressive is that The One Ring RPG managed to remove itself from the visual characterization of the film's and stay closer to the spirit of the novels instead given how pervasive the film's visuals were.

vikings actually had some pretty neat metallurgical knowledge though, chances are that they didn't go for longswords because long swords are fucking retarded if you can go for a shield instead and don't have very good armour

viking longswords aren't unheard of, but yeah, long swords are a pretty bad idea without full armour

Vikings weren't the only guys around using that type of sword back then, but Vikings were some of the only guys whom you could find smiths who knew steel that well at the time.

I'd say it was devotion to Melkor. Once he was gone, he was going to try to go back to being a normal entity, but thought he'd get some horrible punishment.

Domination is probably merely third place.

>what was Sauron's endgame

Every resource at Sauron's command was bent upon but one task - to recover his lost Ring for the power it would give him. Probably enough power to raise him to godhood and have a legion of slaves remake the world in his image. It seems Sauron had ambition in spades, but he was also a hobbyist, too ...

>melkors plan and entire motivation for everything he does was stated countless times as being the creation of life (and seemed to be interested in creation in general)
>common goal in almost all villians in the lore is greed and desire to create and rule, not destruction
>Veeky Forums states hes consumed by destruction and nothing else

literally couldnt be more wrong. lotr threads are now approaching Veeky Forums arms and armor threads level of retardation

you cant even have fun lore arguments at this point

why is it that all of the people in these threads have never actually read the fucking books before trying to question the story within them

>being retarded on purpose
>being condescending without cause

wew double jeopardy lad

>Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. He still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and coordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. (It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.) Sauron had, in fact, been very like Saruman, and so still understood him quickly and could guess what he would be likely to think and do, even without the aid of the palantíri or of spies; whereas Gandalf eluded and puzzled him. But like all minds of this cast, Sauron's love (originally) or (later) mere understanding of other individual intelligences was correspondingly weaker; and though the only real good in, or rational motive for, all this ordering and planning and organization was the good of all inhabitants of Arda (even admitting Sauron's right to be their supreme lord), his "plans", the idea coming from his own isolated mind, became the sole object of his will, and an end, the End, in itself.*

>*But his capability of corrupting other minds, and even engaging their service, was a residue from the fact that his original desire for "order" had really envisaged the good estate (especially physical well-being) of his "subjects".

fair-use.org/j-r-r-tolkien/notes-on-motives-in-the-silmarillion/

This is wrong. He actually prevented very little of his resources to find the Ring. He sent the wraiths at first but then drew them back. He decided it was better to quickly end Men before they could use the Ring against him. This became overly hasty when Aragorn showed himself to Sauron through the Palantir. Sauron feared the heir to Isildur, not just because of his personal strength but because of what he means to humanity. He is a banner for Men to rally around. So he attacked Minas Tirith before he was ready.

The fact that Sauron stopped trying to find the Ring is how Frodo and Sam got to the Cracks of Doom in the end. Had he put off the war and looked for the Ring instead, there would of been no hope.

actually Tolkien himself said the big distinction between Sauron and Melkor was that Sauron wasn't consumed with self destructive rage at all times

>Implying there's that fine of a distinction.

Remember, Sauron (erroneously) thinks that they're bringing the ring to Minas Tirith, probably to have Aragorn use it against him. Knocking out the realm of Gondor IS looking for the Ring, at least where he thinks the ring is going.

What Gandalf actually says is that if Sauron had focused on defense, on making his realm impregnable, then he'd have won. But that decision would be based on a totally irrational (again, from Sauron's PoV) strategic decision, to attempt to destroy the ring rather than to use it against him.

>He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it.
>he loved order and coordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction.
>But like all minds of this cast, Sauron's love (originally) or (later) mere understanding of other individual intelligences was correspondingly weaker

this. in the debate between the lords of gondor following the battle at minas tirith gandalf mentions that sauron doesn't know the location of the ring and wholly expects a man of exceptional fortitude (such as aragorn) to use it against him

So it was autism all along?

Yup

I was waiting for somebody to post that.

Why are we talking about Sauron on Veeky Forums? Take this to /tv/ where it belongs.

8/8, m8

>Sauron
>/tv/

This doesn't even deserve a bait pic.

The tribes of harad, the kindoms of rhun, most black numenoreans, the Variags of khand.
Each of them managed to btfo gondor alone in the past.

>didn't have the skill to make anything that wasn't nasty af
quoted for truth

He would say Tar-Mairon, never sauron

Morgoth's goal was to tear down whatever the other Valar had made and warp it to his image, and failing that simply destroy it. His greatest goal was to be a greater creator than Illuvatar himself, but he couldn't, so he just broke everything like an angry troll.

Sauron's goal, like every other Maiar's, was to organize the world in service to his Valar, which he had chosen to be Morgoth. He continues doing just that, even after Morgoth's fall, and even refers to him as some supreme god when deceiving the Numenoreans.

Their goals were compatible, because Sauron's goals are simply to further his master's. It's their motivations that were in contrast. Not being an angry lunatic like Morgoth, Sauron actually got to work building up the world in his master's image instead of just destroying things.

Do you doubt that his sense of duty was any lesser than yours? I wonder what his name was. Where he came from. I wonder if he truly believed he was doing the right thing.

War will make corpses of us all.

Melkor literally drifting through space or someshit. He can't come back.

I was under the impression that Sauron has more or less been brainraped into having the aspect of Melkor exist within his mind. By the time of the war of the ring he's essentially just a screwy disembodied continuation of Melkor's will. Melkor's final Mr.Meseeks, if you like.

Isn't there a prophesy about the end of the Age of Men when he comes back?

Vikings got their best steel from central asia, once they stopped trading with them their sword quality decreased.

Your basic apocalypse scenario; Morgoth escapes from the Door of Night and everyone throws down with him.
Hurin (the most awesome human warrior to have ever lived) fights him in personal combat and finally gets his justice for that horrible shit that Morgoth did to him and his family.

>Isn't there a prophesy about the end of the Age of Men when he comes back?
Not as far as I know. I don't actually know that much about this stuff, but I absolutely remember that Melkor got punted off the age of the world and into space.

That's actually an elven misapprehension when they "wrote" the Silmarillion. He was actually bodily destroyed and his spirit didn't have enough strength to hold itself together.
fair-use.org/j-r-r-tolkien/notes-on-motives-in-the-silmarillion/

There is a Dagor Dagorath prophecy in some of the earlier incarnations of Tolkien's work, when it's more directly corresponding to northern Germanic myth. He does move away from the concept, although I don't think he ever officially uncanoned it in his notes, but it seems unlikely in regards to stuff that he later wrote in how bodies and souls, elves, men, and ainur interact that it would still be valid.