Why do so many people here in Veeky Forums don't like skirmish wargames?

Why do so many people here in Veeky Forums don't like skirmish wargames?

Is it because the really low model count? Is it because you don't think they're strategic? Is it because you like Warhammer/40K too much?

Not trying to bait or get a 40k hate thread or anything, just really asking for your honest opinions.

I myself have played a LOT of wargames, from WHF, 40K, Flames of War, Field of Glory, Infinity and Warmahordes to SoBaH, LOTR SBG, Battle Companies, Mordheim, etc. And I find that whenever someone starts a thread about skirmish-level games, there are some people who love them and some people who really hate them.

What I personally feel is that sometimes it doesn't feel that much strategic, mainly because most skirmish games don't really offer good scenarios and instead the game turns into a big mess in the middle where there are no tactics involved but throwing the fucking dice. The truth is, this doesn't have to happen, and there are many games out there that avoid it completely.

Other urls found in this thread:

lordsofmiddleearth.com/Battle Companies/Battle Companies.pdf
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

And also, following on this question or topic, what do you feel is the IDEAL number of miniatures AND units in a game?

For example, Warhammer 6th edition usually had around 80-120 minis per army, but around 8 units (talking about 1500-2000 points). Nowadays it has around the same number of minis, but MUCH less units, sometimes I see people with 4-5 units in 2000 points games.

And also, how do you like your minis organized in your games? I suppose it has a lot to do with the 'genre' of the game, if it's a skirmish game based around scenarios or a big battles game, but do you like having your minis organized in units or acting alone?

Bumping with some images of skirmish wargames

When you're playing low unit count games you're often relying a lot on not getting fucked over by the dice and losing a unit you really needed 5 mins in.

It's like how bows were in the lotr skirmish games(the older rules anyway I haven't played in a long time). Fucking useless in the hands of most races but once every hundred games those goblin archers would accidentally kill Aragon on turn 2 and make the other player fling his models off the table.

The other problem is terrain, skirmish games tend to rely on the idea there will be things on the table to get in the way of LOS that you need to negotiate but the average player isn't going to just have mountains of stuff at the right height for it. You're often just going to be flinging down whatever trash you have to hand most of which will either be 5 times the size of the models or a 5th of the size. If you want good terrain you either spend ages building it or shell out for the stupidly expensive premade stuff on the market.

>Is it because the really low model count?
This should be a pro. Wargaming minis are damn expensive.

Yes, there is some truth in that, although I can say that the same thing will happen in Warhammer sometimes.

For example, playing 9th Age or 8th edition I don't remember, I witnessed a guy who lost 3 units of Lizardmen due to a routine panic test (caused by Khemri's skull catapult) during the first turn of the game.

I mean, whenever something comes out of just ONCE dice roll, anything can happen. That's why most of these games have mechanisms to stop that.

For example, killing Aragorn would involve Moria orcs to hit him on 5+ (let's assume he's without cover), and then wounding on 6s, or 6s and 4+ THREE TIMES and then Aragorn needs to fail all of his Fate tests.

I know, it can happen, but it's pretty fucking difficult.

On the other hand, sometimes those things are what are remembered the most. I'm sure that if a Moria player does that, he'll remember it for the rest of his life.
Once I charged a Dark Elf unit with my unit of Bestigors, during 6th edition, and hit almost all of my attacks, but then proceded to get ten 1s out of ten dice. It was magnificent, we laughed a lot, even though I got fucked pretty hard after that.

True about the terrain, if you don't have a lot, then you can't play them properly.

Although I'd say, I'd really love it if massed battle wargames included a bit more terrain than they do. It's pretty depressing to see 40K or Fantasy tables with just 2 token hills and a small rock in the middle. Same goes for Warmahordes, nobody uses fucking terrain in that game. It might as well be a card game or use counters instead of miniatures.

I'm probably one of the people you're wondering about and I can't explain it myself. I just can't really motivate myself to play a skirmish game. I'd rather just play WMH which is a lot of fun for me. And the weird part is that in theory I love everything games like Malifaux do, but in practice I don't really enjoy them.

>what do you feel is the IDEAL number of miniatures AND units in a game?
I would have to go looking for the citations, but I've heard that the typical person can manage between 6 and 10 elements tactically. Real world militaries are arranged with this in mind, though sometimes it is seen every other organizational layer instead of at every step.

In a wargame, a skirmish game is defined by those tactical elements being individuals, while the larger scale games see those elements become squads, platoons, or even larger. You may have more than 6-10 models on a 40k table, for example, but they are grouped by mission and you can and do change your own scale of focus when needed.

The white dwarf published LOTR warband campaign was absolutely brilliant, and the accompanying battle reports too

I don't wargame but this was my first thought.

Anyone happen to have a PDF of this campaign?

i don't think they suck, they just don't really scratch the kind of itch that i get when i wanna play plastic army men in space

Because skirmish games are a dime a dozen with mostly monopose models. Besides that, they are easy to get into, but similarly easy to fall out. The good quality monopose models are the main draw and once you have aquire those, the hobby aspect of the game becomes boring. It's like buying a console vs a PC. Reliability and convienence of a skirmish game vs something customizable and more long term like a larger war game like 40k.

>I'd really love it if massed battle wargames included a bit more terrain than they do.

That's a result of several things. Terrain is another transportation challenge, represents another set of skills to look good on the table, and it slows down play.

In addition, open terrain was preferred in real classical warfare. A General would try to arrange for just enough unusual terrain features to constrain his opponent in some way while allowing his own troops to succeed, while also allowing him to observe and thus control his troops.

The God's Eye View of most wargames only changes that equation a little.

I like having fucktons of models, it gives me something to do. Also I like plastic models, metal monopole models are gross.

Also there is something to say about common games, no one wants to spend money on a game that no one plays. At my flgs they have warhammer Weds, mtg night and pathfinder nights, starwars night but no infinity or malfuax nights.

Thirty years of GW Kool-Aid on display...

Until GW came along, customization was not a common feature of wargames at any scale. The crowd that did military modeling to that level were not generally gamers, and the gamers had a battalion of Napoleon's best to paint, so please no curve balls.

You might see a manufacturer produce different poses for a unit. GW/Citadel even started that way, not embracing the idea of customer customization until long after the RPG market changed how miniatures were sculpted and manufactured.

Oh, and most of the modern 40k crowd have no idea that their favorite "mass battles" game is still a skirmish by military definitions, and that 40k started as what would now be seen as a skirmish game.

is this PDF?
lordsofmiddleearth.com/Battle Companies/Battle Companies.pdf (18MB)

>Also there is something to say about common games, no one wants to spend money on a game that no one plays.
An entirely different argument. As much as the big organized play companies want you to believe otherwise, most gaming remains a private hobby.

>The other problem is terrain
i like how MERCS handle this, giving the option to play on 2d surfaces (pic related), even is not as cool as play on a ruined city board it very practical because of MUH card movment and SNAP! to cover haven't play yet because NO ONE IN MY COUNTRY is interested on this game

but i'm stuck trying to make enought terrain for Frostgrave/Mordheim and i don't even know how i will transport it

As above said 40k is still technically a skirmish game, you need to go up to epic 40 k to start getting the numbers for a pitched battle.

As someone who played a lot as a youth against an imperial guard sperg who would only play pitched battle, table end vs table end games 40K is a much much better game when there's lots of terrain to contend with, the focus goes from cheesy tactics or abusing army list advantage to actually positioning your units and planning your advance/compositions. There's also a reason to use less efficient solutions that fit the map rather than oh look he has tanks better break out the lascannon heavy version of this list.

That's a pretty cool idea, it might not handle verticality well but most people aren't capable of creating terrain that allows for that anyway. Lego is another okay solution but it has a high investment cost(because lego are jews)

>it might not handle verticality well but most people aren't capable of creating terrain that allows for that anyway
it's hard to make a building with enough room to justify having a third floor and end up just with some ledge or catwalk, pic related most third floors of mordheim buildings i've seen

>Until GW came along, customization was not a common feature of wargames at any scale.
You see, something like that is VERY important to me. I generally like to do stuff with my minis to make them mine. Just painting them a unique way is often not enough.

Even if the conversion has no alternate rules, i like that i made them mine somehow.

People often scratch their heads at this, but I prefer pretty much any model medium over metal because of this.
plastic > resin > finecast >>>> metal

So I will prefer plastic kits like GW's over most other companies for the customizability. Lately their newer kits are become more and more monopose, and I think they are doing that for new customers, but it really isn't stopping me.

However, the odd thing, I like skirmish games like SoBaH because they do scratch the small skirmish itch, and I generally prefer to use monopose reaper minis with them. Maybe its because of SoBaH's profile creation system which allows me to build model profiles from scratch, or maybe ive just been searching for a game to use all my bones minis with. But I do love both skirmish and mass battle games equally.

>Lego is another okay solution but it has a high investment cost(because lego are jews)
Not as much as you might think. Lego keeps its value years after purchase, and I don't think they've been keeping up with inflation.

>As above said 40k is still technically a skirmish game
In a military sense yes. In a gameplay sense, no.

Yes the hobby remains private, but the gaming side isn't. That's the problem. You can build an army for a game that you are oh so proud of, but it's really only shelf decoration until you find someone else to play with.

>Why do so many people here in Veeky Forums don't like skirmish wargames?

They don't?
I always got the impression that it's exactlyn what people here like.

>actually positioning your units and planning your advance/compositions

How do you do that in 40k, exactly? The mechanics don't really seem to support it.

You don't. The only positioning in 40k is getting/denying LoS.

Fuck MegaCUNTgames. Those lazy fucks still havent realease MERCS 2 yet. Oh right I can pre-order it rught now. THANK YOU! NOW I CAN FINALLY PLA A GAME THAT'S BEEN DEAD FOR THREE YEARS, BECAUSE YOU CUNTS DIDN'T DO SHIT FOR THE GAME!

That and keeping melee away/defending any chokes you've made. It's still enough to stop the game turning into a shitfest where 2 sides ram themselves into the other or sit there blasting or hope their units live long enough to ram themselves into the enemy after being blasted for 3 turns.

>That and keeping melee away/defending any chokes you've made.
So shooting at stuff. Got it.

Are you kidding? Or ople gush over how Mordheim was the tits all the time.

Private in the sense that people do not play at stores, not "solitary".

And I paint more in a group setting, so there is that.

The idea that all gaming happens in stores is another GW invention, and one they've bought into so thoroughly that they are convinced that most of their customers aren't actually gamers.

I've played GW since the early 90s.

I NEVER had trouble converting metal models. I also don't think their models are really that posable. Sure, you can rotate the hips and arms a little bit, but not really, and they end up looking the same.

I'd rather ten monopose, unique metal models to 10 bland plastic ones whose waists are turned .8 degrees to the right differently.

Throwing more antecdotes on the flames.

My FLGS has an Xwing night, a Kings of War night, an Infinity night and a WM/H night. Usually with tournaments of each every few months.

They stopped doing any GW nights after people stopped coming. There are 40k tournaments every so often but there have been so many fights over rules that the owner is considering cancelling them.

Not anymore bro. That's the old CEO talking. The company is taking a new direction with community involvement, free rules, and such. It's like a different company in the last year. They still have a ways to go and prices are still ridiculous, but at least they're headed in the right direction.

I like skirmish games.

Hopefully not too little too late.

I feel like 40k is really out of hand, and there is no way to just show up and play a fun pickup game anymore.

>>GROSS

someone's about to get smashed

And there is a ray of hope. Rumors is 40k is getting discussed for a revamp. Not an end times then aos, mind you, but a reduction of rules.

One source is saying he ralked to a couple of the game designers, and their topic of discussion was how bloated 40k has gotten.

So maybe sometime next year we might see a streamlining of 40k rules. Not to the complete reducton of aos, mind you, but that direction is the right one. I am pretty sure points will remain a part of it.

>and there is no way to just show up and play a fun pickup game anymore
>anymore
That was always the case. Balancing was always based on how much you were allowed to hurt your opponent's feelings.

>Balancing was always based on how much you were allowed to hurt your opponent's feelings.
Heh.

Balance can mean a lot of things. Rock, Paper, Scissors is an internally balanced system, but if you pick scissors when your opponent picked paper there still is no way you can possibly win.
Ideally a game system gives each player one rock, paper and pair of scissors each, so they can decide how to play the game. That means it's a symmetrical game in terms of tools available to you for your problem solving and what makes the game interesting how you put those tools to use.

wh40k, is such a bloated huge game, that has no clearly defined scope that it's impossible to do that though. Especially since the game is not updated all at once, but one codex at a time.
In 3rd and 4th edition the game at least clearly revolved around infantry and tanks. Now you got fliers, superheavies and fortifications to take into account as well.

Now having fun is not the same as playing a balanced game though. So while it may be unbalanced it may still be a fun experience is both players cooperate to make it a worthwhile experience, instead of trying 'to hurt one's feelings'.

Fair play is the magic rule here. If you play football or soccer you're more likely to have a good time if you kick the ball instead of each others' shins.

This. There is only so much you can do with kitbashing and creating a multipose squad always means compromises in design.

The problem is 40k is so unbalanced you can ruin someone else's fun without intending to.

Or have no fun because your army is so poor there is little chance of winning. Most people rightly have less fun in that situation.

Please, I can't handle all that metal.

Fair point. 40k was never well balanced.
I just took issue with the tone of the remark about hurting somebody's feelings.
Sounded a bit too much like the page 5 Warmahordes attitude for my liking, which I believe is detrimental to the experience for everybody involved in playing a game.

>page 5
Worst attitude to hit the games ever. I really hope mark3 does away with it completely, because it's really shitty. What's even shittier is people take it too literally or misinterpret it.

Back when you had to ask permission to use the major bullshit though you could show up with 2000 points and rolls some dice. Now you have super heavies and fliers who completely wreck you if you aren't prepared. It's definately worse.

That's why my whole group converted en masse to Infinity and XWing over the past few years.

Yeah, WMH and it's attitude suck a fucking lot.

WMH is also a card game instead of a miniatures game but that's another thing

BTW; I'm OP, I was asking because I'm currently designing a skirmish wargame and wanted to see what you guys thought about it.

What would you like to see in one, the scale and all. In fact I've got like 3 games in the burner, but wanted to see which one would be more likely to receive acceptance by the community.

>that fireman axe

Ugh, my autism.

I like mass battle wargames and skirmish wargames all the same.

Don't. There are already too many skirmish games on that market. Your little game will just be a drop of water in an ocean. There can be a problem with market oversaturation.

If it's more about your setting and range of models, just pick a current game and publish your seeting book and model range.

If it's a game of 'bring whatever from your collection' then don't still, because it's been done before, a lot.

Bring back Gorka Morka and Necromunda. Maybe Inquisitor too.

Best GW games of all time.

I heard Gorka Morka will be remade soon. Might be wrong, though.

The specialist games department has been slowly working on it. We know bloodbowl is coming back, and we got lost patrol and warhammer quest. This list clearly says necromunda is one. Dont know of the fate of gorkamorka, but i seriously doubt inquisitor will be returning.

At least if it does i hope they go to 28mm. But it's moot, because inquisitor what GW's attempt at making an RPG, and FFG has taken that mantle.

The 112 Rescue is golden
Warhammer 40k Death Watch games are the tits though

forgot pic

>being this dense at tactics

>Entire army of the frenchmen
>Not the Russians or Americans

I don't really think that many people dislike them. Most games with their own model range are "Skirmish" games. It's the best format for 28-32mm figures after all.

Warmahordes is a miniatures wargame made for and by the kind of people who really should just be playing computer games, but realized that they still want to be able to win games by being dicks at the listbuilding stage.

MERICA

>Thirty years of GW Kool-Aid on display...
monopose vs multipart is a fairly legitimate reason for someone to avoid skirmish, not just "hurr da GW koolaid"

The only other multiparts I can think off off hand are a few historical miniatures and frostgrave.

Warhammer 40k is a miniatures wargame made for and by the kind of people who really should just be playing with Legos, but realized that they still want to be able to sperg out by being autists at the game playing stage.

Hmmm but good rules still stand out as better than worse ones.

Don't you think it could be a good idea to at least try?

I mean, it's easier than getting a whole new model range

Explain how these being multipart makes them dynamic or unique?

Would you be worse off if they were monopose, but better designed and more interesting to look at?

>a few historical miniatures
The entire Perry range, the entire WGF range (including the dank skellingtons), most of the Warlord range, etc.

>Would you be worse off if they were monopose
To some people, yes. The monopose GW character models are already avoided, because they just don't like that shit

If you don't field 200 models of the same type, monopose metals are just fine.
Converted metals also look better, most of the time. Yeah, metal is harder to convert than just slapping plastic bits together, but the result is usually a way nicer looking model, because the metal parts are usually more detailed.

Tactical Marines are practically monopose, though.
Look at any given tactical squad. There is always
>Bolter Up Guy
>Bolter Down Guy
>Bolter Middle Guy
Usually, in duplicates. Every fucking Missile Launcher Marine has the same pose, every Heavy Bolter. Seargants only vary depending on wether they have a bolter, a pistol and a sword, or the pointyfinger.
Posability is a non-issue with most plastic models, because they start looking really fucking dumb really fucking quickly, your margin is very small.
Where multi part plastic models shine is when you have several kits that are compatible (i.e. basically Orks, Marines and Dark Eldar Lines) and the fact that its very cheap to produce mass infantry this way.

Converting metal competently requires some serious hobby chops. Doing the same with plastic or resin is monumentally easier.

Can you seriously not see why people might prefer models that aren't monopose metals?

I would actually like 200 monopose for an army.

It always bugs me when a rifle squad is loading, running, shooting and scouting at the same time.

If you can make a simple, fast and fun game with ltos of options and a way of balance it, it could be cool. Also I like different games for diffrent sizes, but the larger the game the simple and focused should be, the borefest of 3 hours of whfb for a fucking game with luck was devasting.

What are some good skirmish games? Aside from Infinity and Malifaux I mean. I already have my grubby hands in those particular cookie jars.

deadzone
song of blades and heroes

What are you searching? I really love SoBaH, or song of blades and heroes. Simple, you can make any unit you want and the different books can add lots of love like frostgrave/mordheim campaings, rules for loot and different terrains etc. The warband builders are very fun to use too.

I literally said
>Yeah, metal is harder to convert

So what makes you think I can't see it?
Also, no, converting metal does not require serious hobby chops. It requires some basic skills, like sawing, drilling and the absolut minimum of sculpting skill: Gap Closing.
Those are skills anyone in the hobby that gives a fuck about his models should have anyway, because even with today's amazing technology, many multipart plastics still look better when touched up a little with saw, drill and putty.

Sounds interesting. I'll give it a look.

I recomend it. It's a simple system. All you need to remember about the unit profiles are 2 stat numbers and any special rules. It may seem too simple, but it works on a skirmish level. As soon as you try go big battles or add war machines and monsters then the game's limits really start to come to light.

But it's a 'bring your minis from your collection' kind of game, and you can make each of their profiles from scratch, which is a cool thing. That means you stat the minis based on their appearance and it has a built in points system for it.

Agreed.

The problem is that special rules should never replace some stats.

The miniatures should have at least 5-6 stats, not that false economy. People are afraid of numbers it seems. Having "Speedy" and "Slow" as special rules instead of 10cm, 12cm and 15 cm movement doesn't make any sense.

The game is good though, but that should be modified. Same as Infinity. Too many fucking special rules

>the right direction

Oh? They're writing balanced rules now? Stopped pretending they're not a gaming company? GW stores are no longer 1-man asylums? They're re-opening all the warehouses and entire regions that they've abandoned? Bringing FB back - only better than ever? Stopped sucking Space Marine dick? Re-upped the forums? Restarted Bits Service? Chapter Approved is back? White Dwarf is only a dollar [cheap!] - and doesn't suck? Stopped being ungrateful cunts to the indie stores that put them on the map? Offered to buy-back every Finecast model for full retail, no questions asked? Begging Rick, Andy and Pete to come back? Posted the Thorpe x Ward sex vid to YouTube?

Cool story, bro.

I agree, but I dunno if you need that many stadistics. Also I thing it could go well using other dices, like a d10, to give it more granularity. Sobh is pretty great but dividing quality in another or even two atributes and perhaps giving wounds could make the game more interesting.

>Also, no, converting metal does not require serious hobby chops.
Compared to working with literally any other material? Yes.

Honestly, at this point this might be either the big turnaround, or a desperate move of a drowning man.
To actually start groing again, they need to make a lote more drastic moves than just re-releasing 25 year old boxed games at a markup, or even releasing new games at ridiculous prices under an old name.
What carries a gaming company is the loyalty and goodwill of their customers, and rebuilding that after poisoning the well for 10 years is hard.

In a similar position. Though its hard to get any kind of useful response around here, it seems.

For some reason wargames have developed a terminal fear of metal. It's really not that hard to convert, you just need a saw and a drill capable of working metal and a file helps too. And you should have those tools anyway, to better model plastic kits.

Converting a metal model is no different than working with plastic. You still cut, saw, drill, file and use putty. Cutting usually takes a little longer and the knife can't substitute for every other tool as easily, but using a knife for everything is horrible practice anyway. Other than that, there's no difference.
Unless you count kitbashing as converting, I guess.

Skirmish games are not wargames. They are closer to board games than to wargames.

>Oh? They're writing balanced rules now?
This is arguable. But not many new games came out since the new CEO got into power. AoS was from the old CEO
>Stopped pretending they're not a gaming company?
All signs point to yes. Since the new ceo there has been more of a focus on the game side than before. An example would be the reopening of the specialist games and communication with the community over rules and FAQs
>GW stores are no longer 1-man asylums?
This may change. Like I said, they have a long way to go, but they are slowly working on getting things in the right track.
>They're re-opening all the warehouses and entire regions that they've abandoned?
See above
>Bringing FB back - only better than ever?
No, nor do they need to. They are working on improving AoS with diffeent modes of play and the game and setting still can develop.
>Stopped sucking Space Marine dick?
This is something from before the last CEO. They never stopped sucking space marine dick. I don't see how this is an argument.
>Re-upped the forums?
This may change. Again they have a long way to go still, but the above things they have done are showing the direction the company is headed.
>Restarted Bits Service?
Bits service is not feasible when everything is plastic kits.

cont.

>Chapter Approved is back?
It may come back with the new format of white dwarf. Another new ceo initiative, moving back to monthly and including more things like hobby articles and battle reports. We will still see whether its like the glory days, but it shows the ceo recognizes the weekly catalog wasnt working.
>White Dwarf is only a dollar [cheap!] - and doesn't suck?
White dwarf hasnt been only a dollar cheap for decades. Now you're just being childish.
>Stopped being ungrateful cunts to the indie stores that put them on the map? Offered to buy-back every Finecast model for full retail, no questions asked? Begging Rick, Andy and Pete to come back? Posted the Thorpe x Ward sex vid to YouTube?
Look the rest is just you grasping at straws. The bottom line is i never said they suddenly are like they were during their golden age, but I said they are headed that direction. Not everything can be the 80's again, and a lot of your benchmarks are fairly unattainable and ridiculous.

>Cool story, bro.
Nice meme, bro.

>Other than that, there's no difference.
Unless you want to do more than cut in a straight line. Then you need to get a dremel.

I agree. But all things that have been happening show they are trying, and that's much more than anything could be said during the kirby era.

Its mostly cost, nowadays. Plastic is cheaper, and the initial start-up cost for plastic molds have gone down.

I don't know if there is actually a place where someone can answer to this kind of questions. Whenever I try to create a thread like this, conversation turns into "GW IS SHIT!" "NO IT ISN'T" really fast

If you want to discuss the rules themselves there is a game design thread up atm.
If you want to gauge interest, you won't likely get a very representative response.
You got the naysayers that'll tell you to not even bother writing, but they may be a vocal minority due to their brand loyality to other games.

There are a lot of small games that get played by people all over.
/hwg/ likes to talk about small skirmishers from time to time and every so often there pops up a Mordheim, malifaux or Frostgrave thread.

If you want to interest somebody on your game you need a pitch that gets to the unique selling point fast or give people the rules so they can read it for themselves.
Asking a vague question is only gonna get a vague answer at best.

Back on the topic of skirmish games, here's my current mordheim warband, currently the second strongest in the campaign I'm playing with some pals, also I should be picking up the last bits I need for my necromunda gang on Friday, skirmish games are alive and well within my group of friends at least

>square bases in skirmish games
*shudder*

>streamlining it even further
jesus fucking christ, streamlining is the exact problem 40k has
everything feels the fucking same
everybody has ignores cover now
everybody needs to play mobile tankhunters because lascannons suck ass
how about adding rules to make armies actually play differently? let us stack saves, so a guardsman in cover isn't as tanky as a space marine in the same cover
give armies actual special rules and then DONT give it to other armies. Chapter tactics is ridiculous bullshit and that's coming from a SM player, sudden bursts in effectivity should be Ork territory