Does anyone seriously have a problem with the idea of female space marines...

>he thinks feminists want female equality rather than female superiority

It's in the name.

feminism isn't about equality, otherwise they wouldn't dismiss male issues out of hand. you cannot address gender inequality by only addressing a single gender. and omitting the context-important "SJW" part of that quote makes your argument a strawman since it's very obvious what kind of feminist is being referred to when lumped with SJWs

What's the issue with female space marines if it is about equality though?

Heres a little know secret OP. ALL space marines are Female.Why else would they need to insert Geneseed?

okay i have a question for you
whats wrong with having an all male game. . the equality push means women are popping up in everything and also getting more female centric things. but why can't a man have his own games without women being involved and it still be okay?
nevermind the fact that we do have females in warhammer just not spess muhreens.

Women are weaker and not as robust as men.

There'd still be a whole lot less, like hella lot less female spicehammers if they were chosen for the process because it's so deadly. And at the end is what you have is a weaker space marine that looks only slightly different to male ones.

There's just no point.

inb4 hurr hurr you hate women -4 strength, I love women, but you're straight retarded if you don't think much of the strength difference among the strongest and most athletic females in the world can be out done by rather ordinary blokes in lots of activities. Women are good at things women are naturally good at and men are good at things men are naturally good at.

IN ADDITION: It's extra pointless and would require a great deal of rewriting (remember to produce essentially pointless results).

Get this, space marines take after big E genetically.

The God Emperor of Mankind, is a human male. The relevant information to do into space marining and primarch comes from male DNA. I know that Y is a pretty runty piece of DNA but it counts a great deal for males.

So again, it requires a stupidly large amount of fucking out to make slightly shittier space marines. Yet if you go by typical gender neutral in every way 40k lore where men and women are equal even in physical prowess, you've essentially done a lot of fucking to make dickless marines, congratulations.

TD fucking DR;
A little, only because it's pointless.

It's not equality. It's needlessly forcing shit where it doesn't need to go. Just like making an all female Ghostbusters movie for no reason. How about we put a bunch of white guys on BET? Why has nobody complained about BET being racist for only having blacks?

Why aren't we putting men in women's sports?

40k surely is all about legit biology. This is just the "muh lore" argument, user.

Third/Fourth Wave feminism, that this

I don't understand why lore isn't a valid criticism.

GW has changed a lot, but the Primarchs being the sons of the Emperor and the Space Marines in turn being their sons and the Space Marines being akin to a monastic order is seemingly something that has become a foundation stone of the setting. The thing about the Primarch's being made from the Emperor's genetic material and thus that meaning only males can be Space Marines seems sound to me, though I wouldn't be surprised if like a lot of things this didn't prove to be the case when you dug deeper and looked at 40k under a realistic lens.

Female Marines would also shit all over the Sisters of Battle too since they would basically become them.

Honestly you'd be better off doing more with Sisters and trying to increase female representation in other parts of the Imperium.

It makes more sense tonally for the Imperium to be a sexist institution. Even if female space marines were possible, they wouldn't make them because a woman's duty to the Emperor is making more soldiers to go into the fight. There are a handful of exceptional women in the Inquisition and (thanks to a legal loophole) Sororitas, but as a whole it should be frowned upon by the incredibly backwards institutions that make up the Imperium.

Remember that this is a crapsack galaxy where every smidgeon of hope has been squashed out and every possible vector that could lead to a good ending is ignored. This isn't like Mass Effect where if we all hold hands and work together the power of diversity will save the day, this is Warhammer 40k where the diverse group of aliens you're allying with plan to break your legs because they don't have to outrun the cosmic horror, they just have to outrun you.

Tumblr wave feminism.

>being this triggered

Ok lets go by that then. Still.

Why?

A few hundred I think. Van Dire founded or legitimized them and they ended with his death.

Why pander to an audience that was never going to play the game anyway?

>de feminist boogeywomen want to take away all my rights

Please define equality. What exactly about women should be equal that isn't already? And why should this apply to fictional characters?
You can't just say "women should be equal to men" in the sense that numbers can be equal. They'll never be identical to men or to each other. You can only say all people should have the same amount of a certain thing.

It's not like the Imperium's conservatism corresponds exactly to modern human conversatism though. If you tap stuff like Inquisitor some of the original Inquisitors were women. The SoB have pride-of-place in a number of fields in the Imperium - they fight, but they're also scholars and medics and priests and seneschals to the nobility.

The Imperium produces a tremendous number of bodies in the first place, and all bodies are fuel for the fire. I can see many worlds that have the attitude you're laying out - but it won't be universal.

>Does anyone seriously have a problem with the idea of female space marines? It seems like a"muh lore" reaction over anything else
There's nothing wrong with having a "muh lore" reaction.

Space marines are picked from the best of the best, there's no way any living female could pass the training.
>inb4 "MU REALISM"

Well, for example you could start with trying to get a legal abortion in Texas.

Heres a good tool tip: If [blank] provides to relevant alteration to the actual setting, then there was no real reason to include/change [blank] to begin with

there's no way anyone could survive the shit space marines go through, even with implants. This is 40k fo fuck sake, calling inb4 mu realism is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going lalalala

But they did make an all-male Ghostbusters movie for no reason, didn't they?

Men can't get abortions in Texas either.

Its okay user, I love women too.

Cheers! And hey, Id be all for some Space Marinette Baby Mommas but theyd probablly always be to busy "training" or "praying" to do anything fun......bet you a Female Imperial Fist would be into some kinky shit though!

>It makes more sense tonally for the Imperium to be a sexist institution

It really doesn't and I don't think there has ever been an in lore example the show that the Imperium at large is sexist, specific planets could be a different story. The Imperium is human tribalism taken to the next level where it ultimately doesn't matter what the differences are as long as someone is human and on your side. You seem to be imposing the squabbles that currently exist in humanity only because the only other we're aware of and view as a threat exists within our own race.

Again, haven't seen anything in the lore to back up that it's a woman's job to just give birth or that females somehow hold a lower standing in the Imperium in general. If either were true then I don't think that the daughters of Imperial servants would be shipped off to the Schola Progenium.

>obvious weak sauce bait thread
>mfw everyone, including me, is munching on it in current year

What the fuck? But I WANT an abortion! Give me one valid reason why I shouldnt be allowed too?

I agree with what you're saying, but I still think that in the quest to keep a consistent grimdark tone across 40k, it makes the most sense for the egalitarians to be very much in the minority. Not that it would go too far against the grain if the Imperium as a whole were an ascended space society where women and men are held in the exact same stature, but I think it's supposed to be more backwards than that. Remember that half of the Imperium lives in space fuedalism, and a lot of the worlds are so backwards that the existence of a galaxy beyond their own planet is a completely alien concept to them.

I wouldn't like the inclusion because it wouldn't have any reason behind except for the appeal to a badly interpreted and forced gender equality.
Thematically speaking marines would distance further from the monastic and/or chivalric brotherhood, model wise the kitbash would be mire restrictive, aesthetically speaking if applying boob armor or any change in proportion to show femininity you ruin the simple concept of space marine's form, if going for neutral armor you are adding nothing.

Why can't we have fluff for augmented sisters strike forces instead?

No they made two Ghostbustes films with actors of exceptional skill who fit the roles well.

You trying to claim they got the job based only on their genders and not the hard work they put in is your own prejudice blinding you.

There was no 3rd Ghostbusters film. There was also no X-men 3.

>Hollywood
>hard work they put in

That's not how that works at all.

this is like discussing, why we don’t have female Gladiators, why is nobody going back in time and tell the Romes about equality?

>the imperium is an evil genocidal space nazi rapeotropolis of bad life choices and maximum oppression
>but it can't be sexist!!!
the only thing people who argue for gender equality in WH40k know about the setting is that space marines are the protagonists of the video games so the Imperium is the good guys and should be pillars of modern day morality

now if we were talking about a fairy tale paladin kingdom of objective lawful goodness, complaints about gender inequality could be made, but we're talking about Stalinist Russia and Nazi Germany Meet the Spanish Inquisition and the Terran Federation and Embark On A Campaign of Galactic Genocide here.

>tell the Romes

>men got the job because they deserved it, women got the jobbecause it's pandering.

I'm not saying you're necessarily saying that, but that's the general jist of what I see when people argue that a female main cast is the problem with that movie.

I don't think it's about any sort of egalitarianism, it's about stripping all of that away and looking at what you're left with as a resource to be best allocated. If someone can do their job right, who gives a damn what sex they are.

>muh men's rights
Come back when you have real problems.

why dont you also correct it, while your are at it?

so is this today's pigadin thread?

Personally, I never viewed the 40k setting as being progressive and fair. More specifically, it is hard to imagine the Imperium suddenly pushing social justice, where slavery and feudalism are okay, so long as you serve the Emperor.

More importantly, there are plenty of settings that push progressive tones, such as Star Trek. Is it so wrong to have one that does not push social justice?

There were female gladiators though, in the same way we have females in boxing and mma and wwe.

Please be bait.

That's the point I was trying to make, basically. I mean, if it's bad, it's bad, and that's fine. Saying it's bad because "muh females" is something else altogether.

It's not about the Imperium suddenly pushing social justice at all.

>Why can't we have fluff for augmented sisters strike forces instead?
Funnily enough that is how it worked in Rogue Trader. The Sisters cleared out rogue Space Marine chapters.

because it's a dystopian setting "o yea our grim fantasy universe adheres 2 modern standards- IT'S 2016 C'MON GUYS"
equality doesn't mean shit from fictious characters; if a reliable narrator shows hate, that's where problems begin

wow. I did not know that. But you get the point.
its about people bushing social justice in the grim darkness.

What if females had something special about them, like a higher rate of psychic nulls in a population. You could have a male space marines, and female space marines used the way sisters of silence were used.

But it would require changes to the Imperium to make it more progressive towards women. The Imperium allows slavery, feudalism, and eugenics, but it can't be sexist?

>changes to the Imperium
What changes? Are we talking specifically only about the Space Marine thing here? For the common population, the Imperium has never been portrayed as universally sexist. If women are capable, they are used.

>The Imperium can't be sexist?
It can be, but it's not, at least on a grand scale.

"why can't there be women space marines?"
fuck off, the adeptus soroitas are good enough

The design point for space marines is catholic knights/monks which is why they're all male. It's a central part of their design and one of the pillars the setting is built on.

Yes, it makes the Imperium look too heroic, progressive and free.
When they're so bad people from the Dark Ages would look at them in disgust.

1. Because all the military orders were full on male historicaly wise (and spheesh mhurins are based on military orders).

2. Imperium isn't your leftist paradise but the furthest right possible facist state.

3. Males will be always more effective than females due to biology. If you want to break it, then sure, it's possible. But in the end you will get something that looks like a dickless male (transexual on steroids).

4. There're races that utilize regular female units due to shortage of manpower (eldar) or EQUALITY (tau).

5. You can probably find female imperial guards, as they're nothing more than just meatshields, so who cares about their gender.

>4. There're races that utilize regular female units due to shortage of manpower (eldar) or EQUALITY (tau).
I like how aliens just definitely 100% have the same biology as us.

Did you enjoy the first Ghostbusters film?

>There're races that utilize regular female units due to shortage of manpower (eldar)
Aren't the females better than the males in the eldar anyway?

Actually with Eldar I'd argue it might not be due to a shortage of manpower since as a whole they seem to be more about dexterity and technology than anything else.

The shortage thing doesn't really seem to apply to the Dark Eldar either who I don't think have been portrayed as a dying race due to being okay with having test tube children.

This.

The imperium is a horrible entity doing horrible things to it's own people. But it's not targeting any human based on age, race, gender or anything like that. Certain planets and even whole sectors might, but the imperium as a whole will shaft you anyway, blind to such prejudice!

>the idea of female space marines?

No problem as such, no.

I do have a problem with the few SJW who make it a big deal out of it.
Granted, these are almost non-existent since the world of miniature games is nowhere near as profitable target as computer/online gaming.

And people who're too vocal about their magical realm reasons for wanting female SM.
They're kind of annoying as well.

Problem solved then, no?

Because white people already star in almost every TV show, especially when BET was first launched. Black shows are generally considered unmarketable to white audiences, so unless there was a network devoted to it, most of the shows on BET would have never been produced.

Well, let's start with media representation. It's still news when there's a mainstream movie with a female protagonist. Maybe it's because only 15% of the behind-the-scenes people in the entertainment industry.

Then there's government representation. If men and women were treated equally by American society, you'd expect a roughly 50-50 split between them in elected office. But nope. It's still significantly easier for a man to get into a position which makes him considered for public office (like judgeship or local party leader) and much easier for them to win elections since there's not a considerable percentage of the population that automatically thinks they're unfit for leadership.

There's the fact that women make less money than men despite being more likely to have a college degree. They get pressured out of high-paying fields. In a series of studies, professors asked to hire a hypothetical aide were less likely to pick a woman and offered her less money based solely on the name at the top of the resume, even when they were identical.

Who do you think receives more death threats in an average day--a controversial male politician, or a woman who posts a video on YouTube featuring herself?

The Imperium as a whole is not sexist. The Ecclesiarchy is reported to be a bit more sexist than usual because the Emperor is a man and therefore being a woman makes you intrinsically distant from him, meaning you have much lower chances of progressing in their hierarchy.

But that's about it. Women can and do get in the Imperial Guard, women can and do get in the Adepto Mechanicus, women can and do get in the Inquisition, women can and do pretty much anything a man can in the grim darkness of the far future where there is only war.

>"B-b-but muh baby factories!".
If the human population is less than one billion and is all stuck on one planet with no technology to get out of there, of course they're going to be "protective" of women, meaning they don't go to war and are instead kept home to make sure the lands are still there and being taken care of and that there's a continuous supply of new generations of potential warriors/hearthkeepers. This is why all ancient cultures on the planet Earth worked that way, and in some way still do, but even today when there's over 7 billion people you tend to give less fucks if thousands of people die by the day. That's normal.

In the Imperium the scale is so off the charts you can't even conceive how many people there are and how many new humans are born every minute. Also, most of the time you're not facing other humans who are going to kill your men but take the lands and women; if you keep your women home and safe instead of the battlefield, they might get hurt, raped and even killed by the winners, but most of them will survive and possibly be still fine, but if the orks or the tyranids invade you, if the men alone can't make it the women and lands will NOT be spared, that's a fact.

Even losing a million women is insignificant for the Imperium's ability to make new humans, the safety of its borders is much more vital and doubling the amount of lasguns you fire on the enemy is more important than "sexism".

Will you just look at all that gender equality!

But women have not been used as Space Marines. That would require the Imperium to be more progressive towards women as Space Marines. The same Imperium that allows exterminatus, slavery, and eugenics.

Why do you want female Space Marines? At the end of the day, I feel like we are arguing why there is not more female representation of ISIS/ISIL in our media.

Define grand scale. There are billions (trillions?) of humans that live like serfs. Is that not grand scale? Last time I checked, that would make the Imperium sexist.

>Imperium
>furthest right possible

The Imperium is left as fuck.
It's all about big government crushing people.

> Sister Marine

Either you're a battle brother or get the fuck out. Nobody cares what you have between your legs, if you're a Marine you're a Brother in Arms.

Same as how with the Howling Banshees, you put on your goddamn boob-plate and tuck if you happen to have a package.

No.

If they would have been part of the original lore, I would have been fine with it.

Honestly now that you bring them up I'd rather they bring the Sisters of Silence back in 40k than add female Space Marines. Those bitches are cool as fuck.

>Males will be always more effective than females due to biology. If you want to break it, then sure, it's possible. But in the end you will get something that looks like a dickless male (transexual on steroids).

I'm fine with that. I don't give a fuck if they look like monster-freak biological weapons. The guys are too, they're horrific. That's the reason male-only doesn't make much sense - if they can bio-engineer on such a huge scale, and transform a human into a massively enhanced meat-machine, why not do that to females as well? If a woman meets the 'SUPER EXTREME WILLPOWER' test the marines have a hardon for, why not use them as templates? I don't think they need to be cute or hot, it's literally just odd that they aren't doing it.

I would like to see sos or sob updated too, but I think there is a higher chance to see female marines, then those.

>it's literally just odd that they aren't doing it.

How?
Marines start from the best of the best.

Yeah I do.

The appeal of space marines is that they're as male as a soldier can be. The concept of space marines isn't just "okay what if we had knights in space" or "what if we had a bunch of superhuman badasses", it's also "they're 100% male, they're so male they can't be anything other than male at any point in their lives."

It's like with a bunch of other things in 40k that are the absolute epitome of a concept or quality, that's what gives the setting this epic, larger-than-life quality; you've got characters and factions who are the purest, strongest expression of a certain idea. In the case of space marines, it's being knights. The mere possibility of a female marine would weaken the archetype of space marines.

> Would require the Imperium to be more progressive

No, user, it would require them to deliberately go out of their way to make women "equal" to men.

The Imperium is resource starved of everything EXCEPT warm bodies. That's their schtick.

Technology is rare and difficult to reproduce, and so valuable that modifying it is considered unbearably risky. Plus all the bad history with experimentation resulting in mutation, chaos infection, and homocidal AI.

Quite frankly, the Imperium only has so many Space Marine Geneseed vaults, and it has more than enough men to be excessively wasteful in picking candidates for the process. There's no reason to waste that spot on a woman you would have to do more work on, than to cram a guy in there.

It's not that they view women as less valuable, it's just that they have more than enough disposable men for the job.

Is it not true?

Your picture pretty much captures how female space marines should look like, that is to say like said.

>Who do you think receives more death threats in an average day--a controversial male politician, or a woman who posts a video on YouTube featuring herself?

Assuming this isn't bait, the numbers are pretty equal, with men getting marginally more threats except in the case of journalists, where women edge out ahead. I think there was a PEW study.

Here's my picture on how female space marines should look.

Your idea of equality is the same idea of equality that would lead a news show pit a climatologist against an unaccredited global warming denier. Men and women should be treated equally by society, but as it stands the gap for equality is much larger on the women's side than on the men's.

MRAs like to claim they'd love to support equality, but in practice any attempt to appease them results in "take care of our problems first!". E.g. "We can talk wage gap when you get us paternity leave!" or "Women are underestimated in positions of legal authority? Fuck that, man, we get an unfavorable deal in divorce [from overwhelmingly male judges]!"

The exact same applies the other way around too, but let's just ignore that.

What do you think left is?

>If men and women were treated equally by American society, you'd expect a roughly 50-50 split between them in elected office.

What an atrociously idiotic thing to say.

making a single space marine is expensive famalam; as the other user said, only the best of the best are selected; even fewer survive.

Someone could also argue the geneseed doesn't fit in female bonestructure.

What's wrong with a sausagefest faction?

I guess we already got orks but they're the comic relief faction. I don't see what's wrong with having a serious male-only faction, and keeping it as such, instead of subverting it for the sake of subversion.

That's an interesting point user. I do not have much to add.

> MRAs

> MRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAS

So, we're just going to ignore that the most vocal and high profile "MRAs" are also well known Feminists who were pushed out from a radicalizing movement because they dared to say that maybe there was inequality towards the other gender as well?

Stop acting like a child.

I'm so glad like 85% of women realize this shit and don't identify as a "Feminist" despite being vocally for equal rights.