Pathfinder General /pfg/

So in the last thread there was mention of the Trickster. I know /pfg/ hates the class, but I noticed that they recently put out a new version with less skills per level and a weaker magic system. Is it still shit or has it gotten better?

I want the Interjection Games guy, Bradley, to come in here so I can directly gush to him how fucking great Tinker is. His stuff is criminally underappreciated.

You fuck off too. Holy shit.

It kills your mobility for a minor bonus and only refreshes tricks you used a couple rounds ago, and you're not aiding an ally so you might catch flak for that.

...

Hear, fucking hear. These threads are already enough of a fucking DSP love-in, we don't need people who are here to advertise to us to bring in more people to advertise to us.

I wish there was Motherless art. Qlippoth tieflings are fascinating conceptually.

Speak for yourself. I enjoy being able to chat with devs. It gives some nice perspective on the inner workings of the gaming design process.

Why do you exist? How do you justify your waste of space and oxygen? Why haven't you killed yourself?

Bollocks, actually hearing from devs, giving and receiving feedback, and interacting with the community to help build and realise new things is great.

Zealots stand out at the strongest PoW:E class by a fairly wide margin, and the most powerful initiator period (Ravenlord Harbinger are relatively close).

The reason for this is the relative frequency of boosts that reposition you AND the ability to keep extremely powerful defensive counters up constantly (Skill to Save and Skill to Negate Hit are the big ones). The ability of a creation zealot of active counters through party members, heal, negative damage, suppress effects, and negate spells/attacks while not compromising on offense (a ranged discipline is built into their class) allows them to outperform essentially every other tier 3 in the game, sometimes multiple ones simultaneously. They warp encounter design with their presence.

Zealots really are that good.

Honestly, I'd love to hear from somebody who does this stuff for the love of the game instead of for a paycheck. Homebrewers like Ertw or Tzizimine.

Since it's a new thread and I haven't dropped it in a while, here's another plug for the Stregone. It's the "definitely not a replacement for the Vigilante Warlock", for those who've not seen it before.
docs.google.com/document/d/1GVTXsAAdkxpLjQFfvYzuME3lVyuhAU2chxXrK46vlbA/edit?usp=sharing

Haven't really felt like much worth talking about has been worth dropping in for. I damage output looked a bit wonky when I was putting a level 7 test statblock together for the iconic, but remembering how fat other similar classes could get their damage I figured it's probably fine.

Noteable things:
>Offensive style knacks are now the unique "bolt types". They function similarly to styles in that you can't stack them and can swap via swift action, but they're "always on" and stack with actual style feats
>was going to make deadly aim and power attack work with Mystic Bolts, but changed my mind and reverted it back to not working until actual numbers get run. There's already several things that add to bolt damage.
>After seeing someone talk about whether the Vigilante should get an "extra talent" feat or not, debating whether to remove or limit the "Extra Stregone Knack" feat so you can't just stack those after getting the basic feats.
>been thinking about it since I first started the class, mentioned it in several archetypes, and was reminded during the discussion of the Royal last thread: A Unique spell list to go with the 6th level casting, with a few minor spell discounts here and there and maybe a few problem spells taken off. Yay or nay?

Yes, but a lot of /pfg/ treats the DSP devs like some kind of hero worship bullshit. God damn.

That hasn't been my experience. So far, it's been the warlord pouncecharging with Victory Gambit and the Mystic crafting scrolls that broke the game.

The zealot is just tanky and supporty.

Just because you're also getting a paycheck doesn't mean you aren't doing it for the love of the game as well. Quite a few people were homebrewers before being recruited into a 3rd party company.

Because they pander to us. We like being pandered to. Everybody likes being pandered to.

Not really

>Mystic crafting scrolls that broke the game.

I have no idea why they gave the mystic free fucking item crafting.

Fucking WHY.

But hey, let's focus on Rampart.

Paizo needs to give us another Blood Of Fiends book with more Tiefling/lower planes stuff. Tieflings overall are realy neat as a race.

we could also homebrew it ourselves, I guess

Because it's perfectly fine, even if it's strong. It gives the party downtime utility and lets you get some of the important things like resurrections and teleports that a party SHOULD have later on, in an otherwise non-full-caster game.

Have you actually been in /pfg/? Not liking DSP content will have people starting a witch hunt against you, normally to the chorus of "What do you hate martials or something?".

I DISLIKE ALL DSP CONTENT.

Bradley is a cool guy. I hope he comes here

No it doesn't. Lots of people have said they don't enjoy DSP content, or certain dsp things. That's fine, it's being an asshole and constantly calling people shills because they enjoy and talk about the products that gets you "witch-hunted"

I dislike full initiators and akasha.

Because of its content? Fair enough.

I HOPE YOU FUCKING DIE.

Nah, fuck off, nobody needs to accomodate your fetishes. Stop shoving them onto /pfg/.

I just want more Qlippoth lore. More Qlippoths in bestiaries. Qlippoth adventure paths. Qlippoth theme parks. Huggable squeezable Qlippoth dolls. Is this really too much to ask?

You already know the answer to that.

No it's not
>like resurrections and teleports that a party SHOULD have later on
No they shouldn't. At least the teleport thing. Mass, long distance teleportation is cancer. Resurrection from the dead is thematic.

The answer is no, it's in the works as we speak as the horror ap. Now involving more really stupid antagonists that have no grasp of tactics.

H Y D R A G G O N S T A T S W H E N

Hope springs eternal.

You spelled 'sylph' and 'human' wrong, friendo.

Entirely wrong.

You're a fag for disliking Psionics.

Everything else is fair, though I disagree.

A good example is with the new Fool's Errand with its ability to replicate other discipline's maneuvers. A Zealot has access to enormous amounts of variety due to being able to recover those maneuvers so easily. This opens up the vast majority of strikes for him to use and is TOO MUCH choice. A large part of PoW is the restriction on known and readied maneuvers. A Fool's Errand zealot laughs at that. That however is only at the highest level, but Fool's Errand STILL has very offensive low level maneuvers when used by a zealot, like infinite spell resistance.

This is just the problems when a Zealot uses Fool's Errand. I could show you things a zealot can do that is relatively game breaking in most maneuver sets.

However what is worse is the shortening design space for maneuvers, there is a glut of maneuvers that do almost the same thing. Because of being able to ready multiple of those and recover more than one easily a zealot can keep a defense like Skill to Save (A mechanic described as "Feel Good", yes it feels good to have something stronger than it should be) up constantly.

Being able to pick and choose what saves you fail is extremely strong, and a zealot can do this for other party members.

A properly build defense zealot does more for party defense than any character in the game.

pic related

>calling me a fag for disliking a TO-complete system
>liking astral seed abuse
plebeian detected.

>No it doesn't.
Have you not actually hung around? People saying "I don't like initiators" will get people jumping down your throat. People have calmed down in the last two months because they're disillusioned a tad on DSP content, but for a good six months it was like that.

I remember a few months back when /pfg/ discussed a campaign concept where the biggest, sytrongest Qlippoth were rising from the bottom layer of the abyss for a sort of "final campaign"
it was a pretty cool idea.

>A good example is with the new Fool's Errand with its ability to replicate other discipline's maneuvers

At level 17. When everyone else literally has "just kill that thing."

Otherwise they have an extremely limited counter that works ONCE and then stops.

Party defense is literally meaningless in pathfinder though
Unless your GM is legitimately trying to fucking destroy your party with wizards spamming weird and shit, defense is worthless

And I say bollocks to that. I haven't seen such. I've seen people arguing about the power level of some initiators, but nothing close to "jumping down their throats"

>thinking TO-completeness matters when the rest of the system is fine
>assuming astral seed abuse
>not assuming candle of invocation abuse

>ignoring all the problems and saying that the rest of the system is fine
>implying I don't hate Paizo casting too

I'm not up to snuff on astral-seed, but candle of invocation got some nerf. Wish can no longer be used to gain magic items. Now you have to simulacrum or planar bind an efreeti to get your free wishes of 25k gold per wish.

>Otherwise they have an extremely limited counter that works ONCE and then stops.
What are you talking about? It is infinite spell resistance from outside targets for your turn. If a zealot really cared to he could have constant infinite spell resistance while not compromising on offense with a ranged discipline.

As I said that is an EXAMPLE of where zealot's recovery mechanic breaks down. There are more in most disciplines where the ability to keep constant defense is too strong for a character. Skill to Save, because of the relative ease one can optimize a skill compared to a saving throw (and cheapness of optimizing a skill compared to a saving throw) make them invaluable.

What's the closest thing to a Xenomorph in Pathfinder?

The rest of the system kinda IS fine though. One abuse that they forgot to get rid of doesn't mean the whole system is shit, it means that abuse is shit.

How the fuck is astral seed/candle of invocation/psychic reformation/whatever a fucking problem?
What mouthbreathing GM allows that shit at their table?

The fuck are you talking about? Does your GM never put save or sucks against you? Do creature not try and hit you?

AC is relatively worthless, saving throws are enormously important unless your GM is coddling you.

I've talking about The Sincerest Form of Flattery, the limited counter for replicating other disciplines.

are there magic items or feats that grant immunity to insanity or fear?

The thing is something existing, even if you do not allow it, is still bad on the person who designed it.

I was talking about Assert Existence. Proof of Victory was the only real "replicating one" I cared about. It is simply stronger than other 9th level maneuvers in a climate where limited access to maneuvers is a big issue for high level initiators.

>The thing is something existing, even if you do not allow it, is still bad on the person who designed it.
I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise. However, just because one or a few spells/powers are broken doesn't mean the entire system is. It does mean you have to excise them, which isn't good, but again it doesn't mean the entire system is failure.

Assert Existence got nerfed yet again because of you shits. At this point they should just remove it and replace it with something nice instead of letting people like you cause them to give us a useless, ruined counter.

Is the Royal class in the trove yet? I can't find Playground Adventures anywhere.

>thinking Infinite Spell resistance for a turn isn't too strong for a character who can use it EVERY TURN
Sure buddy. Should give spell resistance equal to 15+initiator level.

Unique Spell-List would be nice, but it's not strictly necessary all things considered. It would certainly improve its existence as it's own standalone thing, however.

They can use it every turn at the cost of movement, boosts, stance changes, other swifts... So no, not really.

Mass long-distance teleportation is expensive. A teleport scroll or three will get your party where they need to be, but it's hardly MASS.

I think they should just limit it to once per encounter. Out of combat once per X hours.
There you go.

You know, every single turn as long as they do absolutely nothing else. Like being a useful member of the party instead of "can't cast on me, oh but physical attacks still rape my asshole".

Fuck that. Just remove it and give us a different thing. That goes against everything in PoW and ToB.

He only has to use it any turn someone tried to use a spell that allows spell resistance on him. Plenty of maneuvering space for other things. Really when have you had to make a spell save every turn in actual play and a caster focus solely on you?

If they are that means that caster is essentially worthless and not hurting your party, if not then you can activate other counters through party members by strategically delaying until last initiative.

Movement doesn't matter hugely when one can simply use a quick runner's shirt in emergencies and otherwise at high levels move around with repositioning maneuvers.

PoW is overpowered shit because it breaks the game's assumption that you will lose resources through the day. It can completely refresh everything, including HP, with very little downtime. Maneuver recovery needs to be changed to use a limited pool of daily resources.

>He can become immune to spells so long as he does basically nothing else!
>Yeah, me too, I just move up to the caster and he can't cast without getting anally bombarded.

Uh. HP is assumed by the game to come back up because of cheap wands. If you DON'T have wands for healing, your DM is cheating; by RAW you can find them in towns, end of story.

A smart caster also doesn't run out of spells.

It's really not a good game assumption, in my opinion.

FUCK YOU

You realize the recovery means you need to alternate your tactics between rounds right?

The fuck are you talking about? They are buffing their party harder than a bard can, they are using strikes.

They don't compromise on buffing or offense all while having infinite spell resistance.

The fuck you talking about "Doing nothing else". All they lose is movement on turns where they had to use it, and stance changes/boosts if they NEED to use it every turn (which they likely won't).

Being able to give a party member infinite spell resistance is extremely strong. Imagine if a caster could do that every turn at the cost of movement and his quickened spell (because that is roughly equivalent). Imagine the shit storm.

The "15 minute adventuring day" needs to die. It is cancer killing the game.

>nothing else
>can still use strikes
>is buffing the party
what?

>What is rope trick

Not if you used the counter on your last turn. Really it depends on where you are in initiative. I use the counter last round, and recover it on my turn the next round and then use it again.

>allowing rope trick
kek

>A smart caster also doesn't run out of spells.
Lazy DM detected.

>retard rages instead of providing an argument
Expected.

>The "15 minute adventuring day" needs to die. It is cancer killing the game.

It's actually good for the game. Only people who play a MMO-style "you must crawl through the dungeon and have this many encounters per day" sort of game have any reason to care about it.

People who actually roleplay will find fights being rarer and most strings of fights happening within a couple minutes of each other, instead of running into a weird videogamey "problem".

>The rope can't be removed or hidden
>Man, what's this rope doing here in the middle of the room?

Plus if your players can just leisurely wait 8 hours after every encounter something is wrong.

>Banning rope trick
>Needing to make casters run out of spells to feel like you're challenging the PCs
Lazy DM detected.

Some of the adventure paths I've been playing have the fight so broken up with moments of role-playing and downtime that there's really no point to the resource system at times. Maybe that is just how Paizo does it, idk

Something bad GMs don't know how to handle.

>It's actually good for the game.
It makes casters the eternal top of the pile. It hurts the game enormously.

>People who actually roleplay will find fights being rarer and most strings of fights happening within a couple minutes of each other, instead of running into a weird videogamey "problem".
It sounds like shit encounter design. If somehow extended combat destroys roleplay then it isn't the game that is the problem, but your group.

>ad hominem implying I advocated banning it
Expected. I'm saying you shouldn't let players get away with abusing rope trick.

Extended combat doesn't destroy roleplay, but it makes no sense to have an "adventuring day."

Instead, do something like a quick string of 3-4 encounters as the party fights their enemies, or maybe one fight per day, or every couple days, depending.

PCs should be talking down many situations that could turn to combat anyway.

Re:casters being the top of the pile? That's why we have initiators too. They are just as fun as casters.

Why is one (1) player being immune to spells an issue, exactly?
No, seriously.
A Warder can make his whole party LITERALLY COMPLETELY INVINCIBLE for FIVE TURNS IN A ROW thanks to Iron Tortoise and Extended Defense. Why is that not an issue?
It literally negates ANY harmful effect on everyone adjacent to him. That includes arrows, swords, fireballs, phantasmal killer, breath weapons, baleful polymorph, whatever the fuck. And the Warder can keep that shit up for FIVE FUCKING TURNS IN A ROW at the same level as this Zealot. And all it costs him is a swift action on his turn, so he can move around, use strikes, full-attack, whatever. Why is that not an issue if this is?
Is it because the Zealot can do his meme for longer than 5 turns a day? It's not like normal combats go longer than 3 fucking turns nowadays. And if he does expend all of them, at that level the party will definitely have some dank refreshment meme, probably a demiplane cooked up by one of the casters.

>party used rope trick in a fortress they were trying to clear out
>people from other part of fortress see rope
>one makes knowledge arcana check to know what it is
>guess the party casters are resting to get spell back
>they go back, grab gunpowder from the stores (the place had cannons) and wheel it to where the party is.
>light one with a fuse, and person makes stealth check to go over
>throws it up into rope trick and dives for cover
>kegs of black powder do 6d6
>spend 30gp to kill 2 party members and severely injure 3 more

The players didn't put up a watch because they said they were safe in the rope trick. It was just in the corner of a room full of people they had killed already.

Why do we keep on shitposting about how 3pp is the worst thing ever? What are we trying to accomplish with it? Even if I agree with you, what would we talk about here? I feel like discussion would devolve to talking about waifus/furfags/tiefling penises and that's objectively worse

It's not hard to challenge wizards/whatever. Grapple, pounce-like. Things that obscure vision or apply sickened...

Schrodinger's wizard doesn't have much HP or the best saves.

Then again the point is not to "challenge them", its to "challenge the party".

Just because the caster didn't take HP damage doesnt' mean that they weren't one turn away from a party wipe. If that emergency CSW didn't keep the barbarian up then the fight would have gone differently.

This is pre level 12 though.