Is the Imperium truly beyond negotiation...

Is the Imperium truly beyond negotiation? Were they ever charitable or at least tolerant of other species who clearly had no intention or means of attacking them?

Yes. Sanctioned Xenos exist, once in a great while a whole species gets sanctioned and individual commanders aren't above cutting a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of truce with some species.

Wow, when you look at the two ships compared like that, the Star Trek spaceship is really, really efficient. Interesting that something so small could absolutely destroy the 40k spaceship.

kind of like "tiny, fluffy xenos president signs treaty with enormous cyborg wearing a tank decorated like a church" sort of deal?

Nearly any ship is more efficient than the one that uses more metals and fuel than several major cities and relies on teams of slaves to load cannons.

That being said, a cloud of lasers, shells and torpedos constantly being flung in the general direction of a ship even as advanced as the Enterprise D would certainly give the helm and the shields a hell of a time.

If "technically we want to kill all xenos, but these guys are mostly harmless, so we just ignore them as long as they don't start shit and we have bigger enemies to deal with" couns as tolerance, the yes.
That's pretty much the standard policy of dealing with xenos. The Imperium is surrounded by enemies on all sides so, even with how mindbogglingly vast it is, they simply don't have resources to exterminate every xenos race they find. So if the xenos in question aren't threathening nearby Imperial sectors, and the planets they control don't have anything that would make them prime colonization targets, they're usually left alone while the resources that would be needed to exterminate them are used to deal with marauding Orks/DE/pirates/whatever.

The only ones that they could negotiate with, the Eldar and the Tau, both consider themselves superior. Even if you made a truce or the like, eldar will still kill your men and attack your planets because their psykers predict good things in the future if they do so, and Tau will never stop trying to convert your men to the greater good.

That hasn't stopped some treaties from being made, however. It's vague to me, but I know in some novels or another, there has been mention of agreements between the Tau Empire and the local Imperial lords about peace treaties, borders, no-fly zones, etc., like the Neutral zone between the Federation and the Klingons, if my memory serves.
Similarly, there has been the occasional peaceful contact with the eldar for the purpose of sharing supplies or information to aid the fight against mutual enemies.

Keep in mind, and at the risk of attracting /pol/, that Imperium/Eldar relations are like White/Black relations at times, where there may be peaceful agreements between France and Ethiopia, but not between France and Somalia, despite the two sharing the same race. Same deal with the Imperium and Craftworlds.

I imagine there are enslaved Xenos worlds out there living under appaling conditions but at least still living. Especially on the fringes or under Rogue Traders who have legal right to interact with Xenos even on equal terms.

What if the xenos keep sending them gifts? Trying to appease them?

Between void shields and tens-of-meters-thick futuremetal armor, I'm honestly not sure the Enterprise D could meaningfully damage an Imperial flagship like that. By the same token, though, it seems unlikely the Imperial ship would be able to easily hit the Enterprise with its apartment building sized macrocannon shells. It'd be like Man Vs. Wasp.

"its a trick! Burn the gifts before they destroy us all!"

Or if its a Rogue Trader. "Oh we need a lot more gifts than that, keep it coming Xenos."

>While the Rogue Traders weren't looking, the Blood Ravens took forty gifts. That's as many as four tens. And that's heresy.

Then why doesn't the emperor becomes the Tau(s?) greater good?

>That being said, a cloud of lasers, shells and torpedos constantly being flung in the general direction of a ship even as advanced as the Enterprise D would certainly give the helm and the shields a hell of a time.
Can't the Enterprise move at like ten times the speed of light

I don't think hand-loaded shells could keep up a meaningful barrage against an enemy that can dodge them all with just the autopilot. I mean, I'm pretty sure 40k lasers are piloted and hand-cranked.

Every fucking time.

Ethereal pheromone-based mind control. No really. IIRC it was an Imperial Armour book that mentioned that, from the perspective of the Tau themselves.
Then again, all publications in 40k are treated as in-universe, meaning they can be fact or fiction and nothing and everything is canon.

Ignoring that possibility, it's again because of the Ethereals. They have a good position at the top of the Tau Empire, guaranteed by birth. There's no reason to give that up just for the chance of peaceful relations with the Imperium.
>declare the Emperor as the Greater Good, akin to the Techpriests declaring the Omnissiah to be an aspect of the Emperor
>get stripped of power by the Adeptus Administratum
>centuries or more later some puritanical Inquisitor decides the Tau'va are a degenerate species that must be purged
>the Tau Empire no longer has the power to defend itself since it's been sending its men off to fight in the Imperial wars.

The Tau haven't exactly been threatened by a major imperial offensive in a long time after all. Like how Andorra or other microstates were able to continue existing because no one cared enough to take their land and titles away.

So if I get my fanfic technically published about the real origin of the Primarchs being the result of the Emperor masturbating into a jar and losing it on his goopy white fluid storage planet, it's canon?

Canon in the sense that it could exist as a book in 40k. Whether anyone chooses to believe it is up to them, but unlikely.

Imperial armaments vary from cannons to plasers to plasma cannons. They're also not generally aimed, the ship just fills an area a few hundred yards wide with fire and assumes that to be sufficient.

>Ten times the speed of light
That's actually pretty slow by Warp Travel standards.

>fills an area a few hundred yards wide with fire and assumes that to be sufficient.

But space is big, so that's not sufficient for anything that can maneuver like a Star Trek vessel with its seemingly reactionless impulse drives that let it glide through space as if it was just falling toward its destination.

>That's actually pretty slow by Warp Travel standards.
True, but it's pretty trivial for Trek vessels to go in and out of warp. Take the Picard Maneuver, for instance. One moment you're targeting the ship, then one abrupt warp-skip later, and maybe he's behind you.

>just fills an area a few hundred yards wide with fire
You're off by a several orders of magnitude, buddy, because as the other user said, space is really really big. Distances of several hundred thousand km are considered knife fight ranges by Imperial ships. Unlike Star Trek vessels that seem to consider a few hundred meters to be long range.

Actually knife fight range is literally knife fight range in 40k space battles.

But much of the hypothetical armaments of 40k warships would be near useless at ranges like that, while there's no reason Trek's weapons should be so short-ranged other than that you want both ships on-screen together for visual effect.

Both of those just highlight the fact that pop-SF writers can't into scale.

Boarding actions are done by torpedoes and transports.

The actual descriptions of the battles in the text itself is in the hundreds of thousands of kilometer ranges, and that's considered close range.

Ironically, space combat is one of the things 40K actually gets the most "correct" in that it accounts for many variables that other settings don't.

Unless you're World Eaters, then you do whatever the fuck you want

>Unless you're World Eaters, then you do whatever the fuck you want
Or Tyranids. Hive ships have thousands-of-km-long tentacles with barbed tips that sucker onto enemy ships, poke holes in them, and shoot acid and tyranids into the holes. Even in space they try to hentacle you to death and eat your face.

The rewards of tolerance are treachery and betrayal.

>star Trek anywhere near 40k

All the nerd-debates forums that calculate out firepower and shielding figures from novels, TV seires, etc put 40k in the gigaton range while Star Trek is in the kiloton range, megatons at most.

A 40k escort could plow through fleets of ST ships without so much as losing shields.

Effectiveness wins wars, not efficiency. Efficiency implies poverty.

Isn't the Enterprise and almost all of its iterations "science vessels" or "exploration ships"?
Why are they so heavily armed, then? Is the Federation telling the entire galaxy that they are "totally not an army, guys, just well meaning and REALLY well armed scientists"?

>Is the Federation telling the entire galaxy that they are "totally not an army, guys, just well meaning and REALLY well armed scientists"?
Part this, partly that they are far enough ahead on tech that their exploration ships can go toe to toe with other races' dedicated war ships.

The Enterprise is the Federation's flagship. It is the best in the fleet. The Federation doesn't have dedicated warships (at least not in the older series). Its ships are all multipurpose.

The Federation is an American expy, like the Klingons are early-Russians and Romulans are late-Russian/mid-Chinese copies.

"We're here for peace but end up kicking ass with technology-ex-machina" is their MO, just like "prime directive except when we don't feel like it" and "bow down before your morally-superior cultural overlords."

Could the Imperials use their teleportarium to send stormtroopers/space marines on the Enterprise? Would Star Trek shields stop 40K teleportation tech the way void shield does?

I know nothing of Star Trek

Star Trek rules are clear: no teleportation through shields.

But 40K teleportation involves tossing people outright through the Warp. I'm pretty sure that Star Trek shields don't block extradimensional effects as a matter of course.

To add to this, do ST shields block kinetics? If I recall, all starship weapons (and weapons in general, if I recall, down to handguns and stuff) are energy based.

Yep, ST weapons are energy based because kinetic stuff is basically useless versus shields.

Unless you can bypass them somehow -- in Voyager there was an enemy that used torpedos in temporal flux that skipped back and forth in time, so they could jump back before your ship was there to fly through the space where your shields were going to be, then hop back to the present where they were inside your shields already. It also made them hard to just shoot down, which is another thing ST phasers are crazy good at.

The answer, as always, is the humble Nova Cannon.

Nothing quite says BEGONE like a 15,000 km wide explosion of plasma (or WARP TIME, RIP AND TEAR, if you happen to have Vortex rounds).

The thing about all this is, technology in Star Trek works exactly how it works in 40k. Its fucking magic and it works however the writers need it to work to resolve the plot.

So arguing about which is better is kind of silly. Though the ship that's 20x bigger probably has the advantage for obvious reasons.

>the Star Trek spaceship is really, really efficient
The Enterprise D once spun out of control and exploded because another Federation ship accidentally grazed its starboard nacelle.
actually it happened many times because it was a time loop episode but nevermind that

On the other hand, 40k shields block 40k teleports.

Turns out nacelle-on-nacelle contact is a terrible thing. Most ships have smaller, much better armored nacelles, but Starfleet's ships have exposed nacelles because they have ramscoops mounted in them to power the ship's fusion reactors with hydrogen. You'll notice that ships like the Cardassian Galor class don't have exposed nacelles because they substitute toughness for cruising capability. The one Federation ship without the exposed nacelles, the Defiant class, is designed as an escort, and thus it can rely on the ship it's escorting/the station it's based at for hydrogen supplies.

(Yes, Star Trek ships use antimatter for the warp core, but they also have fusion reactors)

>Doyle vs Watson
It's perfectly feasible to calculate firepower from observed showings. And the result of those calculations is that 40k ships have firepower hundreds to tens-of-thousands times greater than Star Trek ships.

>there's no reason Trek's weapons should be so short-ranged other than that you want both ships on-screen
Sorry, but you're not allowed to pretend bits of the setting don't exist as shown. Trek ships often fly past each other firing phasers (and missing) at ranges far below hundreds-of-km. You have to live with that.
Also, my dad could beat up your dad.

>40k shields block 40k teleports.
Some fluff has shields blocking attacks by displacing their force into the warp.

That's because kinetic weapons in Star Trek are incredibly weak.

Meanwhile in 40k a Macrocannon Broadside will punch holes in continents and erase cities. They'd just brute force their way through shields, like they do with everything.

How can they be so strong if they need several impacts to fuck up a city sized ship? Check mate space catholic nazi

>Sorry, but you're not allowed to pretend bits of the setting don't exist as shown. Trek ships often fly past each other firing phasers (and missing) at ranges far below hundreds-of-km. You have to live with that.

That's exactly what I said. There's no good reason for it to be like that, but shots of ships flying past each other strafing each other with phasers looks better on screen, so that's how Star Trek weapons get used.
Your post is really weird, since you seem to be agreeing with what I was pointing out, but in a really aggressive and argumentative way, while also attacking a position I didn't take in the first place..

The problem with that is how feudal the Imperium is.

Some planets and systems might conserve resources, or be involved in a larger front. But some populations might be gripped by anti-xenos mania that will drive them to exterminate a peaceful species, or worse, they might actually deal with xenos like the Tau and make use of abhorrent technology.

The Imperium is just a little too piecemeal for even a standard policy.

It's because 40k numbers are clusterfuck of made-up-on-the-spot asspulls that weren't checked against anything else.
Trek's slightly better since they have series bibles and stuff that writers are supposed to check their numbers against, but in the end it's not better by much -- Trek still has tons of stupid asspulls for how things work.

>Efficiency implies poverty
Thanks for the laugh, Lockheed-Martin.

Why would the 40k armaments be useless at those ranges? If that's considered close range to them, then obviously they aren't useless. And using the shitty arguement of "they're close for the shot" is not a valid reason to extend the range of startrek weapons. Face it, in terms of damage output and survivability, 40k outclasses startrek. Now if they WERE to actually fight, there would be insane amounts of ass-pulling through techno-babble and techno-magic on both sides.

Can't afford our wares? Cry harder and remember the USA bought ~180 F22s, ~170 F35s, and is on track for thousands more...while Russia is working on their fifth or sixth prototype T50.

Welcome to Veeky Forums! Where stupidity is a choice.

>Why would the 40k armaments be useless at those ranges?

Because they're used for firing at massive city-sized vessels that take ages to turn and have the agility of a giant brick? By the time your sublight projectiles arrive, the Trek ship is gone. Light speed weapons would still be useful, but all the other weaponry would just be futile.
Because those ranges for combat with those weapons are pretty ridiculous in general, and will only be workable if your ships are likewise ridiculously slow and massive.

>And using the shitty arguement of "they're close for the shot" is not a valid reason to extend the range of startrek weapons.

I was saying that Trek weapons stated ranges are ridiculous. If you read how photon torpedoes are supposed to function, it's pretty clear the weapon ranges are there to support what happened on-screen, because it doesn't make sense that this torpedo has a range that the merest shuttle could laugh at.

The point of all that is that this whole argument is a matter of picking which numbers and things you want to use, and trying to figure out what would realistically happen is almost meaningless, because it depends on who's writing it and what ground rules they decide upon. You can push it either way just by picking which contradictory bits of the lore for each franchise you want to use and which you want to throw out.

No, user! You 'mericans just used CHINESE money for to buy them shiny new weapons. They ain't yers - theys belong to china!

>How can they be so strong if they need several impacts to fuck up a city sized ship?

Said ships are explicitly designed to resist them.

IIRC, something like 40% of a 40K ship is just straight-up armor. The rest is hull space and superstructure, which is also reinforced with armor to be incredibly durable.

Ship battles in 40K aren't won by destroying ships outright (though that does happen often enough to be a valid tactic) but won by killing off so many crew that the vessel can no longer function. You can't brute-force your way through a 40K ship unless your ship is significantly larger than the ship in question.

Star Trek fights occur at at ranges varying from hundreds of kilometers to practically touching, but much like in 40k they're always visually depicted as being practically touching because that looks better in action scenes.

From what I've read in novels, at least Imperial ships can be incredibly resilient and keep limping on even with barely any crew left remaining and death being absolutely certain. When you remember how fucking fanatical humans can be in 40k, it's not surprising that you could force men to work at their utmost under horrible conditions, with death all but certain.

Besides, that doesn't make sense for all ship battles - Tyranids can just keep creating more crew, so to speak, and Necrons aren't going to be hampered by that sort of loss. While Eldar ships would hate taking losses, they're also flimsy though a well-placed shot will cripple them, assuming you land it. And Orks barely care if their ship functions, as long as there's a way to fight.

Because 40k ships can have armor as thick as a building, or even thicker. All made of a mixture of plasteel, adamantium, ceramite, and other wonderful bullshit materials. Additionally they have void shields which shunt all energy thrown at the ship into the warp until all the generators overload.

>F22
poisons the pilot, incredibly overdesigned and extremely expensive
>F35
gets rekt by 50 year old planes, Pilot can't see what's happening behind him

Nice airfoce you got there burgers.

As an example of how ridiculously short Trek weapon ranges are compared to what their tech routinely does:

>Take photon torpedos

>strap one or two onto engine from Runabout

>Hit enemy vessels from several light years away

>Because they're used for firing at massive city-sized vessels that take ages to turn and have the agility of a giant brick? By the time your sublight projectiles arrive, the Trek ship is gone. Light speed weapons would still be useful, but all the other weaponry would just be futile.
>Because those ranges for combat with those weapons are pretty ridiculous in general, and will only be workable if your ships are likewise ridiculously slow and massive.
40K ships aren't slow. They move at a significant fraction of C, and their fights can be effectively like warp strafing, only constant. The only thing 40k ships don't do well is turn.

Sure, but when I'm talking about space combat, "slow" doesn't mean in absolute speed, but how quickly you can alter your velocity. Going at a fraction of C is impressive (unless that's just your stock entry velocity due to coming from an origin point within a different reference frame), but if you can't alter your course then you might as well be standing still for targeting purposes.

They have twelve platforms senpai.

Congratulations, only half of them will be cannibalized for parts by vodka-soused mechanics!

In 2000+16, America zerg rushes you.

>40K ship can't hit the Enterprise
>the Enterprise can't damage the 40K ship
the eternal battle between elephant and fly

Nova Cannon is AOE

Does it have a blind spot? Because a Trek ship could use its ability to warp-skip short distances to get into the 40k vessel's blind spot and then stay there indefinitely with its better acceleration.

Generally there is always a great many guns pointed at you no matter what angle you are in relation to a Glorianna class. And not necessarily because they are being aimed at you.

imperium torpedoes are at least 610 gigatons, trek photon torpedoes are something like 65 megatons, so getting hit by an IoM torpedo is like getting hit by 10000 photon torpedoes at once for the enterprise (I might have fucked up a 0 there)

>imperium torpedoes are at least 610 gigatons

That's downright ludicrous, you know that, right? Like the writers just picked the biggest, craziest number they could imagine for a torpedo to yield, then doubled it.

40k's a parody setting and all the numbers used seem deliberately absurd, from spacecraft weapons being way too high to the way that every gun used by people would be utterly outclassed by commonly available firearms now.

No. Ludicrous is Nova Cannons, which are petatons-exatons.

Except that about 20 meters of a material that's the equivalent of WW2 era tank armor can withstand Imperium navy weaponry. So in fact it's no where near that strong.

>40k is a parody setting
This hasn't been true for a long time. They started drinking their own koolaid back around fourth or fifth edition. You are correct that their ground tech is hilariously weak by modern standards, pic related.

Now, pic related is actual satire. This one sources back to first edition, back when it had the Rogue Trader tag on it.

That's no longer canon, the Forge World book was re-issued and that information was cut out. The Tanks are also quite clearly much more powerful than modern equivalents. A baneblade once got hit by a MOAB that created a massive crater and had enough energy to fling the Baneblade up into the air by about a hundred feet. The crew didn't even suffer an injury and the tank just drove off like nothing happened.

I think we're ignoring the imperiums secret weapon, not giving a fuck and doing it anyway.

>That's downright ludicrous, you know that, right?

Well, they've had 36,000 years or so on the Federation, so their tech is prooooooobably gonna be a bit more potent.

If only some of what you said was true.

What's the deal with that pyramid with an eyeball above the Ultramarines cruiser?

The ancient alien Illuminati orchestrated the battle. Duh.

In a tactical battle, Star Trek has pretty LOLhax advantages when it comes to other settings.
Namely, they can fire while in warp. Your odds of hitting an FTL target with a sublight weapon are literally astronomically unlikely. If they used it intelligently, they could pretty much beat most other settings in a purely naval battle. If they were tied down in a defensive war and you assaulted their planets, however, the IoM would win hands down. 100,000,000 to 1 china vs luxembourg.

...

How would a crew not suffer injury from being bounced around like that?

Good thing 40k is hundreds of thousands of kilometers

Shock Absorbers straight from the Machine God.

oh look, it's another thread where two tribes of nerds fling shit at each other while each claims that they're superior to the other.

You shouldn't expect any kind of realism whatsoever from 40K.

Instead of all of it?

NOW HEAR THIS ALL MEN MAN YOUR BATTLE STATIONS

The most accurate representation is the Enterprise avoiding the guns of the Gloriana right, but in order to do that it would have to be "close" Perhaps close enough for Thunderhawks to Sortie out and board the Enterprise. The Flaw of the Enterprise is its lack of small ship defense.

>Lack of small ship defense

Does anyone have that gif of the Enterprise wrecking a bunch of small ships because phasers are instantaneous?

I would love to see a scenario like this played out.

This is awesome! The immovable imperium against the irresistible federation.

Dance! Dance! Dance!

But how small are those small ships? How thick is their armor? Thunderhawks a space tanks and it takes a lot of fire (Relatively) to take them down.

Ork freebootas regularly work with (And often betray, but not always) the imperium of man.

>Hail them Mr. Worf

>My God... They are all...Borg?

Beautiful, isn't it? It's pure, unrefined, shitposting. Like the ancients used to do in time immemorial.

He's a little preoccupied at the moment.

Except Borg.