Pathfinder General

As the person who had spent real currency to purchase and contribute the "Royal" class to the QA trove to begin with, it is fairly clear that the Educated archetype plus the Arcane destiny is the most mechanically powerful and flexible permutation possible for a "Royal."

Intelligence is simply superior to Charisma for all intents and purposes given the existence of Cunning Liar, Clever Wordplay, Student of Philosophy, and Orator, and the sorcerer/wizard spell list is much more valuable than the cleric list.

Is there anything preventing the Educated archetype and the Arcane destiny from stacking?

>A soulknife that can freely create ANY weapons like spears, rams, and even siege weapons

Got to admit - a Green Lantern-ish soulknife does sound cool.

The fact that the Educated archetype replaces all boons, and is thereby incompatible with ANY destiny (though, again, the Complex Destiny rules exist and waive that problem).

(Thank you for your contribution, by the way! Though, your copy of the Royal is a bit out of date. Don't worry, I've sent the current one on to the cleaners!)

>princess flandre
>autistic writing
2hu it IS you!

>Cunning Liar, Clever Wordplay, Student of Philosophy, and Orator
Someone should make similar traits that use either Str, Dex or Con

d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/constricting-coils

Why is this spell a thing? It's on the same level as Hold Monster but with extra damage.

Also, replacing the "Royal's" Channel Energy progression with the Befriended archetype is an excellent choice.

A Befriended + Educated + Arcane "Royal" makes for a decent low/mid-tier 3 half-caster, but I cannot help but feel that even such an optimized "Royal" would be outclassed by another Intelligence-based half-caster, namely, the investigator (questioner), who has access to the bard spell list and its many discounts.

>though, again, the Complex Destiny rules exist and waive that problem
That really is convenient for archetyping, is it not?

Are there any notable changes in the newer version of the "Royal"?

nah user. Pathflouder is nerd revenge fantasy.

Physical stat will never get good thing.

They fixed the BAB bug.

Oh, and added an entire new archetype, the Commander.

...

Fatfucker revenge fantasy specifically, goddamn my poor eyes

BAB bug?

The version from the trove had some kind of math error where they weren't quite a proper 3/4 BAB class. They had +8/+3 twice, and didn't have +11/+6/+1 at all.

There's still more than a few questionable things, a lot of bonuses untyped when they probably shouldn't be, a couple of powers gained at possibly the wrong levels, etcetera. I'm compiling a list to send in later.

That sounds defeatist

Guys whats your favorite color of Dragon and why is it Bronze?

Let us try to compare a 5th-level "royal" (blessed, complex destiny, befriended, educated, arcane) to a 5th-level investigator (questioner).

"Royal":
• 6 base skill points, good Will
• Intelligence-based, light-armored, 2nd-level spontaneous spells from sorcerer/wizard list, with free Protection from Evil and Glitterdust known
• Full animal companion progression
• +2 bonus to all Knowledge checks and Knowledge checks untrained
• Intelligence bonus to all Fortitude saving throws
• A standard action, broad blessing that is essentially useless in combat, and acts as a glorified aid another action out of combat
• A niche "Influence" class feature

Investigator:
• 6 base skill points, good Reflex and Will
• Intelligence-based, light-armored, 2nd-level spontaneous spells from bard list
• Inspiration pool and free inspiration on Knowledge, Linguistics (good for Orator), and Stealth checks
• +1 bonus on all trained Knowledge checks, take 10 on all Knowledge checks at all times, take 20 on a Knowledge check by spending 1 inspiration
• Two investigator talents
• Studied combat +2
• +2 bonus to saving throws against poison
• Trapfinding +2 and trap sense +1
• Swift alchemy

As I had feared in , at 5th-level, the optimized royal is slightly outclassed by a caster-investigator, although the optimized royal is closer to mid-tier 3 than low/mid-tier 3. The royal's greatest selling point over the investigator would be the animal companion.

Would anyone disagree? I will admit that such comparisons are not my forte; perhaps the optimized royal can bring the same amount of competence to the table as the caster-investigator?

>Running Kingmaker part 2
>Players befriended Old Crackjaw
So he's now following them around but when they level up he will start tonger weaker.How do I buff the turtle in later levels?

Welcome back 2hu, that's some good analysis

But 2hu, you're forgetting a key component of this analysis:

The Royal's book is ADORABLE.

I thought investigators cast alchemy spells

Also how is an extra set of actions in combat worse

Point of order: If your destiny is complex, you're not arcane. You don't take the archetype. You just have the choice of taking any or all of its powers. (Note however that powers replacing Fearless and Aura of Fearlessness are linked and cannot be taken separately).

Most relevantly, this means that you are in fact a MEDIUM-armoured caster.

have you read James Herriot's books? They are very good about having amazing descriptions for the locations and the people and though they are not fantasy you might find them interesting or useful in the way he describes things.

Let us try to compare a 5th-level "royal" (blessed, complex destiny, befriended, educated, arcane) to a 5th-level investigator (questioner).

"Royal":
• d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, 6 base skill points, good Will
• Intelligence-based, light-armored, 2nd-level spontaneous spells from sorcerer/wizard list, with free Protection from Evil and Glitterdust known
• Full animal companion progression
• +2 bonus to all Knowledge checks and Knowledge checks untrained
• Intelligence bonus to all Fortitude saving throws
• A standard action, broad blessing that is essentially useless in combat, and acts as a glorified aid another action out of combat
• A niche "Influence" class feature

Investigator:
• d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, 6 base skill points, good Reflex and Will
• Intelligence-based, light-armored, 2nd-level spontaneous spells from bard list
• Inspiration pool and free inspiration on Knowledge, Linguistics (good for Orator), and Stealth checks
• +2 bonus on all trained Knowledge checks, take 10 on all Knowledge checks at all times, take 20 on a Knowledge check by spending 1 inspiration
• Three investigator talents
• Studied combat +2
• +4 bonus to saving throws against poison
• Trapfinding +2 and trap sense +1
• Swift alchemy

As I had feared in (You), at 5th-level, the optimized royal is slightly outclassed by a caster-investigator, although the optimized royal is closer to mid-tier 3 than low/mid-tier 3. The royal's greatest selling point over the investigator would be the animal companion.

Would anyone disagree? I will admit that such comparisons are not my forte; perhaps the optimized royal can bring the same amount of competence to the table as the caster-investigator?

>That's not his real name you fucking retards that's the name of one of his RP characters. Go look up the court document from when WotC sued him.

What the fuck is this?

>I thought investigators cast alchemy spells
Not with the questioner archetype: d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator/archetypes/paizo---investigator-archetypes/questioner-investigator-archetype

>Also how is an extra set of actions in combat worse
It is good, but I believe an investigator with studied combat +2 and a single investigator talent (out of three) spent on mutagen would do better in combat.

>If your destiny is complex, you're not arcane. You don't take the archetype.
Is there anything actually preventing a "royal" from taking an archetype under a complex destiny?

What we are looking for from the arcane archetype is the spell list modification, which is very important, because the stock, Charisma-casting, cleric list-using "royal" is a clearly low tier 3.

That's not quite how Complex Destiny works actually. It doesn't allow mutually incompatible archetypes to stack, and it doesn't give you access to the spontaneous spells of a destiny. Your archetypes must be legal, meaning no two replacing the same thing, and then Complex Destiny allows you to swap out the 3rd, 9th, 11th, 17th, and 19th level boons for the boons of any archetype. Since Educated and Arcane both replace your boons, they're incompatible archetypes, and even with Complex Destiny, you can only have either the medium-armoured Int-based Cleric casting of Educated or the light-armoured Cha-based Wizard casting of Arcane, not both.

If having a complex destiny still does not allow a "royal" to combined the educated and arcane archetypes, then that means a "royal" can never have both Intelligence-based casting and the sorcerer/wizard spell list, placing them back at low/mid-tier 3, probably closer to low tier 3.

Eh. I don't see why Cha casting off the Wizard list can't be just fine. What'm I missing that that single stat swap suddenly makes them so much better?

Also, query: why do you put Royal in quotes? That's the name of the class, mate. We don't talk about "Fighters" and "Magi".

Occultist princess archetype when?

>Eh. I don't see why Cha casting off the Wizard list can't be just fine. What'm I missing that that single stat swap suddenly makes them so much better?

Charisma-based casting off the sorcerer/wizard list effectively makes the royal (no quotation marks this time) a worse bard, and the result is hard to see as anything but a low/mid-tier 3. Having Intelligence rather than Charisma as a key ability score is a very large benefit due to the way skill points work and the existence of certain traits and feats.

The educated archetype is good not only due to the swap from Charisma to Intelligence, but also due to replacing wild empathy with half the character's level to Knowledge checks and allowing them to be made untrained.

Gotcha. And how do you feel about the Faerie Royal? Befriended Faerie Royal feels like a pretty decent off-Druid. Get you your Magic Fangs and such for your furry friend.

Also Educated adds Int to all of the Royal's saves against Magical and otherwise Su abilities that critters or dudes might dish out, provided you make the necessary Knowledge check as opposed to having a single static bonus to one of your bad saves. And being Int-focused with more than plenty of skill points to spare, passing said checks shouldn't be difficult.

>Also Educated adds Int to all of the Royal's saves against Magical and otherwise Su abilities that critters or dudes might dish out

Is this in the updated version of the royal PDF? I am afraid I still have merely the outdated version. My version states:

>Understanding (Ex): At 3rd level, the educated royal adds her Intelligence modifier as a bonus on saving throws against the extraordinary abilities of any monster she has successfully identified with a Knowledge skill check. This replaces the blessed or cursed boon gained at 3rd level.

Which is why I had opted for Intelligence to Fortitude in .

As of the updated version, Educated adds to your saves vs. extraordinary abilities, not supernatural or spell-like ones.

Also, being as that's a 3rd-level boon, any Royal can grab that with Complex Destiny (though admittedly, without being Int-focused, they'll have a harder time making use of it.

Man, Rageshaper Bloodragers seem really neat.

>Changed to EX
Awww they got rid of that? Damn, my bad. Carry on.

Given that 2hu has the old one and I have the new one, and they both apparently say extraordinary, I'm not really sure what you're talking about user

The druid list is easily the worst of the full caster's spell lists.

A 6th-level Charisma-based caster under the druid list veers dangerously close to the boundary between low tier 3 and high tier 4, with only the Blessed spell list additions and Polymorph as its saving graces.

>As of the updated version, Educated adds to your saves vs. extraordinary abilities, not supernatural or spell-like ones.

In that case, it would seem that I have had the updated version all along... were it not for the distinct lack of a "commander" archetype.

even with druid list there's no way a 3/4th caster is below t3.

Uh yeah hi I have a question um who gives a FUCK about how "high" or "low" tier 3 it is? Is the bar moving again? Are we scorning the bottom half of the tier now, too? If I come back in a month, are we all going to be playing nothing but Aegis and Alchemist?

"As of" meaning "currently", not "it's a change". I don't have the old one, so I can't speak to it.

>playing nothing but Aegis
I wouldn't mind that, honestly.

We need to expand the tier list to 18 tiers, clearly

I play t4 classes ama

I am not so sure about that; a half-caster with the druid list is unprecedented in Pathfinder (am I incorrect here?), and a faerie royal fares quite poorly in a comparison with a hunter, even taking the Blessed spells known additions into account.

Additionally, I implied veering close to the boundary between low tier 3 and high tier 4, not crossing it.

Polymorph may tip things in favor of the faerie royal at 9th-level, however.

For a group of players who prefers to play within tiers 2 and 3 and possibly the higher reaches of 4, it helps to be somewhat more granular in assessment of classes and archetypes.

Be honest with me senpai

What is it like not giving a shit about the highest and best numbers

>Recheck
>It is Ex
I'm either going blind or I'm losing my mind. In my defense, I was on the verge of passing out at my desk so I may have read/remembered it very wrong. Feel free to disregard me.

Okay for real when did we skip from "t3 and 4 best" to "MAYBE the best of the 4s are okay. and also let's invite oracles sorcerers summoners and shit back"

Oh i'm still an optimizer, i just like doing it with classes people think are bad and showing them how these characters can specialize and make poorly played shit look awful. Its a benefit of high system mastery that i can make a sub optimal character even within a t4 class and make it look borderline broken to a party member who doesn't have that same game knowledge.

I gotta say blowing dragons out of the water in two turns as a Paladin or having fun playing a warrior or my personal favorite BLOODRAGING and doing crazy shit, its tops

>Does anyone want to see a reimagining of The Fighter without using Maneuvers?
Not really, no.

>A PF port of the Factotum.
This seems like it's best done as an Investigator archetype, that's already got a solid chassis for it with Inspiration, no need to create a whole new class.

I play monk, fighter, and rogue exclusively

Ask me anything

I personally believe that tier 2 characters can coexist with a tier 3 party just fine, short of certain very powerful options (e.g. master summoner).

A 9th-level sorcerer would not be too out-of-place alongside three Path of War characters.

Tier 2 characters are especially inoffensive at the lower levels, where one could hardly call them outstandingly narrative-shifting.

The leap from tier 4 to tier 3 comes (mostly) in flexibility rather than raw power.

I played a single vanilla Soulknife character for like two years

Fuck me, this thread is better than all the other threads. Did we really fall that fucking far

Less monstergirls and more 2hu.

Should be the other way around tbqh.

Literally what's wrong with this thread? We are legitimately discussing Pathfinder. What the fuck more do you want, asshole?

>a half-caster with the druid list is unprecedented in Pathfinder (am I incorrect here?)
ACG Hunter

The Hunter has druid AND ranger casting. The ranger discounts make up for the druid.

That's what he's saying. This thread is good, and expressing distaste at how shit the previous ones were.

Well technically, Vancian doesn't have halfcasters, only 1/3 (Like paladin), 2/3 (Like Bard), and Full.

He's saying this thread is already better than all the other threads, you goddamned fuckface

>did we really fall that fucking far
implying that this thread is trash too and only acceptable by comparison to the others

Advice on unchained tetori monk builds?

I can't decide between Purple Duck or Rogue Genius' take on the unchained archetype; having ki powers at the loss of FoB is cool, lets you spec into Dimensional Dervish (as you can take Abundent Step) so you can blink/full-round/grab in one turn, and Insightful Wisdom plus Formless Mastery are really ace powers for dat dank save reroll and level to damage buff.

On the other hand, losing ki powers for FoB means you can take style strikes, Flying Kick (free pounce) and Hammerblow would also net me turn 1 full-rounds. In addition, since one won't need Formless Mastery, style feats become an option, and since I went full Dex/Wis (guided enchantment for wis to damage) Kraken Style would make those dank grapple checks get Wis +4 to damage, effectively 30 free damage on a 3-action grapple turn.

Any input friend?

You sure have very loose definitions of those words

I was under the mindset that the hunter was high tier 4 at best previously, but now I am firmly convinced that it is well within tier 3.

It is a little strange how a low-level hunter is, in certain scenarios, better off leaving their animal companion literally dead, and how a 4th-level inquisitor (sacred huntmaster) can directly compete with a hunter at its own niche.

Fallen far in the other threads
>implying this thread is actually good

Bro, do you even English?

Anyway, more Pathfinder discussion goddamned please

Hunter is crazy good without being broken. easily my favorite class.

And Allfood is easily my favorite spell. Ah, such wonders.

Always wondered, would it be gamebreaking or actually needed if partial spellcasters actually received spells at 1st?
This'll encompass the ranger, paladin, bloodrager and others

eh.

Has anyone else come to appreciate the medic (sanguinist) as an incredible one-level dip for unarmed characters?

>Barefisted Syringe (Ex): The sanguinist loves to get her hands dirty, and drawing blood with her bare hands brings forth the power much quicker and easier than other methods. At 1st level, the sanguinist gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. At 3rd level, she gains Greater Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites, and uses her medic initiator level in place of her base attack bonus for determining the damage of her unarmed strike. In addition, the sanguinist may choose to deal bludgeoning, piercing or slashing damage with her unarmed strikes. This replaces one of her medic’s expertises gained at 1st level.

>Blood Transfusion (Su): Starting at 1st level, the sanguinist gains the ability to drain the lifeblood of a creature, store that vitality and transfer it elsewhere. Whenever the sanguinist deals lethal damage with an unarmed strike or natural attack, she deals additional damage equal to her initiation modifier. This additional damage represents lifeblood or some other form of vitality stolen from the target of her attack, which is then stored in the sanguinist's blood reserve as an equivalent number of hit points in order to fuel her ability to heal. In addition, any unarmed strike or natural attack modified by her blood transfusion ability is treated as a magic weapon. If the target’s current hit points are less than the sanguinist’s initiation modifier, she cannot transfer that additional damage to her blood reserve as healing.

A mystic (aurora soul) 2/medic (sanguinist) 1 with Practiced Initiator, Weapon Finesse, and Deadly Agility has fully Dex-based unarmed attacks which deal Wis mod extra damage. They also have their Wis mod to AC in light armor.

This works especially well as a blinkling for Small size, -2 Str (irrelevant), +2 Dex, and +2 Wis.

Certain partial spellcasters I should clarify

its just..

Kinda irrelevant

Just give them Orisons/cantrips.

On another note, a 4th-level medic (sanguinist) can single-handedly protect an entire city from poison and disease.

>Medic’s Training (Ex): Early on in her career, a medic quickly learns to assess the battlefield in order to prioritize the needs of her allies against the dangers that her enemies present. Once per round, as a free action, (even if it is not her turn) the medic can assess the health of her allies. The medic is able to determine their current hit points, any conditions, poisons or diseases affecting them and the duration of these conditions, poisons or diseases, including supernatural diseases. As part of using this ability, the medic may also make a heal check to assess the current health and condition of her opponents. The DC for this check is equal to 10 + the opponent in question’s CR. The check is made against each opponent CR individually and can only be attempted once per round, failing this check against an opponent prevents the medic from attempting to assess that opponent’s condition for 1 round.

>Unnatural Vitality (Su): At 4th level, the sanguinist becomes immune to all poisons and diseases. Whenever the sanguinist uses her blood transfusion or triage ability, she may choose to absorb any poison or disease currently affecting the target. The target is immediately cured of that affliction, and the sanguinist may choose to the poison or disease within the sanguinist’s blood reserve. If the sanguinist has a poison or disease stored in her blood reserve which deals only ability score damage (with no additional effects such as unconsciousness, paralysis or sleep), she may choose to inflict it upon the target of her blood transfusion or triage. The target must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 sanguinist levels + Initiation Modifier) or be subject to the disease/poison’s effects as if they had failed their save against the save DC of the poison or disease. If the disease or poison would have an onset that is not immediate, treat the onset as if it were immediate. The sanguinist cannot store more diseases or poisons than her initiation modifier at any given time, however these remain in the blood reserve until used, unlike hit points. This replaces the medic’s expertise gained at 4th level.

The medic can wander around a city as a licensed doctor. They can assess the health of an entire crowd ("All of these people are my allies") with a glance. Upon identifying a sick person, they can drain away some of the patient's life force and then subsequently restore their hit points with a swift action triage. The patient is then perfectly cured of any and all poisons and diseases. The sanguinist can do this all day.

Instead of getting their spells at 4th level, they'll be getting them at 1st level.

How is that kinda irrelevant?

Their spell level should also be extended to 6th level

I kind of hate the medic. Just as a concept.

then they're not partial casters anymore they're half casters

Stop.

Mechanically, the medic does occupy a new niche. Conceptually, yes, it is very flimsy (particularly when it goes against the introductory pitch of "mundane healers" by having supernatural abilities right from 6th-level).

I do think it could use a free rank in Heal with each medic level at the very least, because for all intents and purposes, its skill points are taxed into 3 + Intelligence modifier. d10 HD and full BAB might not be out of the question either, especially when its class features are compared to those of the warlord and the zealot.

I also believe that the sanguinist is far and away the most powerful of the archetypes for any Dexterity-based medic due to the raw Wisdom modifier to damage rolls and the attack and damage bonuses.

Is there honestly any point to going into Dragon Disciple as a Draconic Bloodrager

I can theoretically see taking the first 4 levels, lose 1 CL to gain +4 str and a bite attack, 2 natural armor, and more breath weapon, but you trade out earlier access to Greater Bloodrage, arguably the best shit there is

I guess in theory if you go Crossblooded you could pick Arcane and get a bloodrage that gives you spell effects while getting your dragon form and Draconic Bloodline shit via DD

Then they're half casters, this is good. More nice things to the martials

Keep them as partial casters with spells given at 1st level

just give them full casting. Who gives a fuck.

You seem butthurt for no goddamned reason

Where did the martial hurt you?

i like my partial casters. I think they have a nice little niche, the suggestion to turn them all into half casters irks me.

How does giving them access to spells at first level make them half casters? Still retaining their 4th level spells though

the guy literally said their spell level should be extended to 6th.

This just makes them more viable

And you can make them the most viable by letting them access 9th level spells

Fuck it, lets just give Arcanists full BAB and good saves in fort reflex and will.

Lets give them a bonus feat at every even level and let them select any class feature they want with from other classes their exploits

Boom, most viable class EVER?

They probably touch him at weird place. Quick! someone get a simulacrum, so he can show us where the bad martial touch him.