How do regular space marines even compete with chaos marines?

How do regular space marines even compete with chaos marines?

>10,000 years of combat experience (Not including Warp time which can add up)
>Mutations
>Blessings and powers from chaos gods

Could someone explain to me?

>Company who favors the good guy heroes over the bad guy villains

When you have that, no force of Chaos stands a chance

Plot Armor and numbers mainly.

That and even CSM will die if you shoot them enough.

They didn't actually live for 10,000 years because there is no time in the warp.

Powerful mutants like spawn have to be dealt with by heavy firepower or tanks, and powerfully blessed champions are few and far in between and can be met by similarly skilled loyalist champions.

Not all CSM have 10,000 years of combat experience. Actually, after 10,000 years, most of horus heresy veterans should be dead already actually, but hey warp trumpcard.
Mutations aren't always beneficial, and seeking the favours of the gods tend to make you act like a retard. I'm guessing it's the decisive part: many CSM have lost part or all of their discipline, either because madness or self interest, and may even fall into infighting.
There are exceptions naturally.

My headcanon would be that generic CSM are newbies made with ill preserved (or perverted) methods, with more fanaticism than discipline, making them second-grade SM.

In "Cadian Blood" plague marines from the long war are described as being much tougher then normal marines, but they're also slower. I imagine the other three types of mutations have that kind of give and take too. Named characters like Typhus, Lucious, Khorne and Ahriman don't seem to suffer from these negatives as much though. Abbadon, aside from crippling failure, doesn't seem to suffer any.

Grav-Guns

Implying Crippling Failure is a mutation and Abby isn't just a beetch

Chaos Space Marines have some serious drawbacks.

>Most CSM's are incredibly self-centered and focus on personal enrichment to the detriment of all else. This means that, while they are often exceptional individuals who can 1v1 most regular Marines, they do not work nearly as well as a team, and can easily get picked apart by more disciplined forces.

>CSM's lack regular logistics infrastructure. Barring the most powerful Legions, CSM's don't have a steady supply of weapons, ammo, supplies, and armor that Loyalists get as a part of the Imperial war machine. They're often fighting with sub-par equipment because of this, and it doesn't help that Champions typically hoard all the good bits for themselves.

>CSM's have entirely different personal motivations from Loyalists. CSM's are focused on survival and on growing in the favor of their patron god. This means that they are either A. Nowhere near as likely to make a glorious Last Stand, and B. engage in seemingly illogical behavior because it please their illogical Chaos God. Loyalists are more disciplined and have the unwavering faith in the Emperor that keeps them working together in such close cohesion.

>New recruits for CSM are typically rare and sub-par compared to Loyalists. Recruiting new Marines is a difficult process that few CSM's can afford to truly invest in, so they either steal recruits, convert existing Space Marines, or trickle a few new ones into their ranks through various means. This means that they pretty much take whatever type of soldier they can get that survives the process, and can't be as selective as Loyalists can.

>CSM's are supremely arrogant. When you've lived a few millennia, you kind of forget that you can die. This makes you careless, and carelessness gets you killed by a Guard Sergeant with a Plasma Pistol.

Source: CSM player.

Since some CSM are so horribly undersupplied that they sometimes put up with malfunctioning armor till someone dies and they can loot him. Has there ever been any occurrence of them having to put up with REALLY shitty weapons like heavy stubbers and maybe even lasguns?

The only thing consistent about 40k fluff is that it is poorly thought out power fantasies that were AWESOME and TOTALLY TUBULAR in the 80's.
So, hey, why not?

I can totally see CSM having no bolter ammo to complete a mission and therefore forced to engage opponents in melee that they normally wouldn't bother with.

>10,000 years of combat experience (Not including Warp time which can add up)
Not nearly all of the legionaries are Veterans of the Long War.
>Mutations
Not nearly all of them are beneficial.
>Blessings and powers from chaos gods
See above.

Leave.

happens in Night Lords books

the armor stripping part. they have a whole raid on a way station mainly to secure ammo. and when they decide to leave a battle by started by abbadon vs the IoM because the sorcerers incorrectly predicted the speed of the imperial response, the black legion's human auxiliaries went after them and the night lords had to club them to death with whatever was at hand

The ones from the Heresy are either Chaos Lords, Sorcerer Lords or Daemon Princes by now.

I meant Kharn not Khorne.

Chaos Space Marines are canonically weaker than loyalist modern Space Marines due to defects in their gene-seed.

>implying loyalists' gene-seed is anywhere near as pure as they let on

AT LEAST THEY DON'T PISS INTO THEIR TANKS WITH GENE-SEED

THAT TOOK A LOT OF EFFORT AND SACRIFICE TO ACQUIRE

I'M LOOKING AT YOU LUCIUS

YOU FUCKING ANIMAL

Death isn't permanent to a Chaos Marine, fool.

Last I checked it's pretty damn permanent for all but the champions. Everyone else who fucks up gets fucked by the Chaos Gods. They really don't tolerate failure.

No, pretty much any unit can get VotLW.
:^)

Here's pretty much the "breakdown" of strength of Chaos Marines and Regular Marines, from Most Powerful to Least Powerful.

>Chaos Lord/Chapter Master - Roughly equals. Chaos Lords have better gear, are absolute monsters in CC, and usually extremely intelligent, but Chapter Masters are close enough to be reasonably their equal. A fight between the two is going to 100% depend on the two individuals in question.

>Chaos Terminators - Older, more powerful, and swollen with Chaos Energy. Just to even GET terminator armor in the first place is an ordeal that no Loyalist has to go through. Act either as kill-squads or as the Lords personal bodyguard. Watch out for egos though.

Loyalist Terminators - Still extremely powerful soldiers, but usually a step behind their Chaos counterparts. Teamwork can sometimes make up for their slight disadvantage in raw experience and skill.

>Chosen - The Elites of the Elite (that aren't Terminators). Have all sorts of ridiculous weapons and wargear, and are centuries old at the minimum. These are the Shock Troops of Chaos forces.

>Stern/Vanguard Veterans - While they have better average gear and access to new tools, they lack the boons and blessings being a servant of Chaos has, which can often in and of itself be an incredible battlefield advantage. That's more than enough to tear through traitor Line Marines, but against their "equals" they might get beaten back. Any battle between the two would still be close, however.

>Line Marines/Line Chaos Marines - These are the "average" Marines of the army. Chaos Line Marines are typically more physically powerful and more skilled, but, being servants of Chaos, are significantly more egotistical and self-centered than their Loyalist compadres. Loyalists have better gear and better discipline. This is a really situational fight that can go either way.

>Space Marine Scouts - While weaker than "real" marines, they are reliably armed and trained.

>Chaos Recruits - All over the damn place.

You forget the true top tier of chaos marine armies - Ascended Primarchs.

Literally Primarchs (not Chaos Lords, not Chapter Masters, legit fully fledged Primarchs) who have ascended to daemonhood.

Magnus is powerful enough to shape the warp, and then you have fuckers like Mortorian and Angron tearing shit up.

Loyallists might stand a chance if they throw literally everything they've got at these fallen legends.

you just vomited your shitty head-canon all over this thread. cmon man.

/Thread

Grey knight.

Or one sufficiently powerful Grey Knight.
Two if it's Angron.

>you just vomited your shitty head-canon all over this thread.

Is that not literally the entire point of this thread?

And it's pretty much an established fact that Chaos Marines, on average, are more powerful and better fighters than their Loyalist counterparts, but are extremely egotistical and self-centered, and lack the discipline that give Loyalists their edge. Renegade Marines are another matter entire, though

I honestly don't even consider them part of the regular Legion force, because they're just so ridiculously powerful and rarely stride the battlefield as to be a once-a-millennia occurrence.

Grey Knights aren't even Space Marines. They're the Space Marines of the Space Marines.

I had assumed we were talking regular Marine on Marine action here.

Luckily the still living Daemon Primarchs are too busy doing absolutely nothing to be much of a threat to anyone other than other chaos warbands and legions.

>ridiculously powerful
One punch, Morty.

ITT: no one that read the Night Lords Omnibus.

They are Space Marines, which is what we are discussing.

>And it's pretty much an established fact that Chaos Marines, on average, are more powerful and better fighters than their Loyalist counterparts
WS 4, BS 4, S 4, T 4, 3+ save.

They're a hyper-elite corps of a hyper-elite corps. They're huge outliers on the level of Daemon Primarchs, so talking about them when comparing average Loyalist v Traitor organizations isn't a great idea because they both skew the curve so much.

Grey Knights are obviously superior to CSM's, because they're geared to CSM's bosses and come out alive and sane. I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying it's like bringing a Bugatti to a car show and claiming it's the same thing as a muscle car, when in reality it's on an entirely different power level.

>going purely off tabletop rules, which force a Bloodthirster and a Grot to be on the same 1-10 scale

Look at the established fluff of both groups. CSM's are described as being more powerful, significantly older soldiers with centuries of experience in even the lowest ranks, with blessings and gifts to help them in their quest for glory, but also being somewhat less well-equipped (unless you're important) and being much more vain and self-centered to the point of treating the battlefield like your own personal performance stage. Loyalists, on average, have better gear, better standards, and better support and unit cohesion.

At the organization level, these two "balance out," but there are absolutely differences between them.

hey fuckers, rate my 750 list

o Chaos Lord (145pts)
Axe of Blind Fury, Bolt Pistol, Daemonheart, Mark of Khorne, Melta bombs
o 5x Chaos Marine (90pts) with Boltgun, one with Meltagun & Aspiring Champion with Melta Bombs
o8x Berzerkers (209pts) Bolt Pistols, Close Combat Weapons & Berzerker Champion

o Cult of Slaughter formation (306pts)
•19x Cultists with Close Combat Weapons, Autopistols, 2x Flamer, & Cultist Champion with Shotgun
•16x Cultists with Autogun& Cultist Champion with Shotgun
•Dark Apostle

>I'm just saying it's like bringing a Bugatti to a car show and claiming it's the same thing as a muscle car, when in reality it's on an entirely different power level.
Pls go to Veeky Forums and say that then link me.

>CSM's are described as being more powerful
Where? I recall the exact opposite, because post-Heresy they use the best recruits and carefully engineer them over a decade instead of kidnapping children and squirting out a thousand marines in a year.

Space Wolves wrecked Grey Knights doe.

Huron Blackheart has VotLW and he isn't from the Horus Heresy, meaning that VotLW simply have fought against Loyalist Space Marines for a long time rather than being from the Horus Heresy.

*or dead
FTFY

Most of chaos marines are fresher recruits.
And, y'know, mutations, infighting and batshit.

Huron Blackheart is a special character. The special rule was specifically said by GW to be intended to represent originals.

>The special rule was specifically said by GW to be intended to represent originals.

Source this.

Woman-studies general is two doors down.

Gear that isn't 10.000 years old, or has at least been properly maintained.

>The ones from the Heresy are either Chaos Lords, Sorcerer Lords or Daemon Princes by now.
Source this.
:^)

I am not the same user that said that. I am just a random user who asked you for a source.

You seem to have utterly failed and acted like a total retard in the process.

If you wanna be like that, 1/100 candidates become space marines, but only 1/1000 survive the CSM trials - and is by design, to keep only the best of the best.

The Emperor Protects

>but only 1/1000 survive the CSM trials

Because their method is inferior. Why do you think Bile is so consumed with finding a better process.

hell no heretic !! we should use your blood for the blood god !!!!

Because Fabius perfected it but Abaddon blew it up. Fabius was been trying to recreate it ever since.

To this Britbong most Daemon Primarchs seem like BoJo and Gove after the Brexit vote. In theory they got what they want, but seems to prefer just hiding behind their sofa for now.

>discipline & not going batshit insane
>armor & weapons that are well kept instead of shit salvaged from whatever dead guy you find
>Emprah

In theory. But chaos dosent bring the dregs back to life. Even most of the Champions would be lucky to get rezd.

The gods really do not give a fuck

man that scene was actually pretty fucking cool. Maybe I'll actually finish that Talon of Horus audio book now.

Chaos Marines aren't likely to be that old.
Even if they were experience is not an unlimited progression, they'll hit peak ability.
Modern marines are processed is a way to removed physical and mental defects, base Chaos Marines are shitters in comparison.
Modern Marines are more disciplined.

>Warp Time can skip just as much as add up
>Mutations are rarely actually beneficial
>Not that many CSM have actual blessings rather than "blessings"

Compare to loyalist SMs

>Better maintained equipment
>Better supply base
>Not (as) fucked in the head by Warp

I'd say it's perfectly logical.

The thing about "normal" chaos space marines, i.e. renegades or full chaos worshipers who are only "recent" as of a few hundred years, is that this would STILL make them head and shoulders above a normal loyalist astartes.

Consider the fact that most chaos marines who rebelled as tacticals have already been scouts, veteran scouts, devastators, assault marines, tactical marines and perhaps more depending on the chapter. It's not like astartes are rebelling straight outta initiation. The average "newfag" chaos marine is probably at least 400 years old, which is veteran age for most loyalists, they would be sternguard level if they had stayed on the emprah's side.

It's really stupid that this is not reflected in the tabletop game AT ALL, what GW should do is make CSM more of an elite force. The bog standard chaos marines can be the equivalent of current Chosen, but make them a non-shit version of Chosen. Then, to show the difference between recent renegades and really old warp fuckers, give the slightly more expensive veteran "real Chosen" MEQ access to the pick of equipment, i.e. they can choose bikes, termi armor, etc. It is stated multiple times that the best spoils go to the most veteran chaos marines, so these vets have access to all the cool shit or you can go the cheaper route and take the Chosen-equivalent troop CSM. And of course still have cult troops. Didn't older books basically do this anyway? CSM troops used to automatically come with CCW and there were Chosen terminators.

>Consider the fact that most chaos marines who rebelled as tacticals have already been scouts, veteran scouts, devastators, assault marines, tactical marines and perhaps more depending on the chapter.

Where exactly does this "fact" come from? From what I know, the share of renegades among SMs is the same through all terms of service, so an average CSM can be a "newfag" as easily as a veteran.

Most of the time when marines rebel, it is because the chapter leadership has become discontent with Imperial shenanigans. Most of the astartes who actually want to commit treason have been around long enough to sour on Imperial dogma, you never really hear about fresh-faced initiates converting to chaos. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but when was the last time you heard of a chaos scout company? Every time I read about large-scale treason like the Crimson Slaughter for example, it's the experienced dudes rebelling. Then they either get everybody on their side or kill whoever opposes them. The fourth company (company numbers roughly equating with experience) Crimson Sabers who remained loyal were relatively new compared to the treacherous first, second, and third companies, obviously.

Heresy detected