Theory on Year End Tax Crash

So I've got a theory and want to see what you biz faggots think. Early in 2017 we saw an incredible increase in the price of alts, ETH being one of the most notable examples. BTC also saw massive gains, but you already know that. I think that the upcoming futures trading and necessity for Americans to cash out for tax purposes will create a perfect storm. Wallstreet will short, knowing this is coming, and people that have seen massive gains (like myself) will need to have cash on hand to cover their taxes. This is all speculation, but I could see futures opening without much price movement while traders slowly accrue a short position. Then, a fairly big crash. People who will owe taxes from trading throughout the year will panic and sell, driving it everything lower. I think XMR would be safe due to tax dogging, which is a part of why it's mooning now.

Maybe I'm just paranoid though. Also kind of drunk now.

Speaking as someone who owes roughly 40k in taxes bc of cyrpto. That is a valid arguement. Biz is full of surprises.

nigger

I'm not quite as bad/good off as you. I have almost 50K in crypto now, with a stupid amount of un-tracked trades through the year. So, worst case I would owe 15K in taxes if I reported everything, since my initial investment was very small in ETH. Makes me wonder how many people are in the same situation and are debating cashing out to make sure they can afford the taxes. Personally, I could pay 15K without cashing out, but really don't want to do that in case the market crashes. Capital loses are limited...

Go back to pol faggot, or buy XMR and leave us tax abiding Americans alone. This shit's not worth going to fuck me in the ass prison. Also, anyone know an easy way to take hundreds of trades from Poloniex and Bittrex and report them?

The best time to short futures would be when bitcoin is high, so wouldn't futures open with a lot of movement? Enough to possibly start driving bitcoin itself down by showing the lack of confidence in bitcoin's short-term future?

This could definitely happen. My theory is the big players who would drive the futures market probably also have lots of BTC, and could manipulate it easily. I thought I was paranoid until XMR started mooning. It has to be the best way to tax doge, right?

>My theory is the big players who would drive the futures market probably also have lots of BTC
Of course they do. By definition, there wouldn't be any point in creating bitcoin futures if they didn't.

OP is correct. I sold half my stash at 10k for taxes. Will rebuy after I deal with my tax situation.

I live in a cuck state and I make good money, so my tax rate is about 40%.

Probably going to kill myself or do legit aggressive tax evading by starting a LLC and flow expenses through it until I accrue a loss

Americans won't be cashing out for tax purposes.

You only have to pay taxes if you cash out though right? Like if I put 2k in USD and it grows to 2k but I don't pull out I don't have to report it

>Also, anyone know an easy way to take hundreds of trades from Poloniex and Bittrex and report them?
Idk about those shit tier plebs-r-us exchanges, but GDAX and BUYnance have export options

See, the smarter investors would have either done what you did (cashed some out), or are on the fence like I am. I feel like there will be a run on the exchanges, like a bank run, to get that tax coverage money out. The normies will be really turned off by the whole situation, and we'll see a new era of bearish market, I'd say until 2020.

yay

Also, I relate to your tax situation. I sucks to be successful and have to pay to support so many degenerates.

I've considered this, but haven't seen a method that's better than just paying the tax. So, I could buy things off Overstock and resell them? Fuck that. You'll just spend time and ebay fees to accomplish the same thing, or worst. Then when this all gets regulated you get fucked, and believe me, they will regulate it. The market cap will push towards a half trillion dollars soon.

It's a shrug question. Reasonably crypto to crypto trades shouldn't be taxed until you cash out. That makes the most sense and anyone who argues that is a shill or retard.

Realistically crypto is treated as property and trading creates a tax event where you must pay capital gains on your trade. However because of the realities of crypto to crypto trade this retarded.

You have to have the cash outside of crypto or you are likely going to get incredibly fucked.

Imagine you trade some BTC with a cost basis of 10K and current value of 100K for XMR when XMR is $100. XMR drops to $1 the instant you buy it.

The result? Assuming it's short term capital gains you owe about $35K in taxes even though you only have a grand. Why? Because the USD value you traded based on $35K of it belonged to the government. In a Crypto/fiat situation it makes sense because you had the money and then reinvested it.

Crypto to crypto though you never had any USD and most alts can't even be traded for USD so it's actually impossible to buy and give the government it's tax money without having the money available outside of crypto.

My method to not pay tax was to start a LLC and buy mining exuipment, then claim all the depreciation at once for this tax year.

Problem is, I'm not sure if this crypto shit will be around in 6 months. I could always resell the equipment at 0.50 on the dollar, but that's not ideal.

If I start a business though to expense the equipment, I'll have to pay self employment tax at 13%. Combine that with a 40% tax rate and if I start a buisness, I'm looking at a 53% tax rate for any money not used for buying mining equipment.

Not really sure what to do.

What would you do?

This is false and you will be IRS raped if you do this.

Crypto to crypto is a taxable event and will trigger a new cost basis for your investment.

You cannot do a section 1031 exchange on it. The IRS will fuck you if you try to do this.

It sounds like you "want" crypto to crypto not to be taxed and are shilling it because it's "not fair".

Well I agree but fuck man, don't be stupid. Pay the shit or come up with clever ways to get around it.

I'd be willing to move if there are better options, but my question is that after I export them, what is the best way to report it from there? Without help I would need to fill out forms for each transaction in USD at the time. That's beyond my ability since I can't program.

I think you have poor reading comprehension or didn't even read what I posted.

If I spend all my bitcoin on giftcarfs do I still have to pay taxes?

How in the fuck is the normie at the IRS who does your account going to filter through thousands of trades on different exchanges at various Satoshi levels (and imagine them finding out it is called a Satoshi). USD value was continuously fluctuating AS WELL. There’s just no fucking way.

I’m pretty sure they’ll be fine with getting paid and moving on.

can't you claim the 34k as a capital loss? Doesn't that effect taxes owed?

I don't know shit

You said crypto to crypto you never had any usd.

But you had usd to buy the initial property to convert into other property.

I'm trying to help you. The IRS makes this very clear.

The crypto you buy is now your new cost basis on the original property.

Instead of complaining I suggest you read up on account and IRS tax rules.

All they have to do is ask. You have to prove it. This is the IRS, not some local yocal jury.

It's not a capital loss because you didn't own it. It's owed to the IRS

Yes it's a new cost basis and the 35K are the taxes before the new cost basis is settled. Your next trade your cost basis will be higher but the taxes are still owed on the gains from the previous basis and cannot be counted as capital loss because they aren't part of the current basis.

What?

They are going to know something is fucking up when coinbase says you bought 5btc in June and now you're paying $1000k tax on it because you only sold $3000k.

But then bittrex and polo both report you have over 20k of shitcoins sitting on their exchange.

Don't be stupid guys. You're asking the government to fucking destroy this.

also wondering this but for cryptsy, coinmarket(? I think), coinedup, etc. all shit that no longer exists

I just don't know enough about starting a LLC to respond with a real answer. I would think that since the trading took place before the LLC was created, they are separate entities. This is why I'm worried, there is no way to doge it without breaking the law. Unless you really made it and can afford a tax lawyer who assumes liability, the only option is to cash out. That has to take place before April 14th to cover the taxes. Even then, people like us could be screwed because we will owe so much that we should have prepaid the owed taxes months ago, according to IRS 'owed taxes' guidelines as I understand them.

I'm not cashing out.

The websites aren't backed by govt protection or regulated. Its not really your crypto or real USD until you can spend it (from your actual bank account). With websites going down and getting hacked I don't see why you'd have to send anyone anything.

You are right about that.

If I make a business, I'll get assraped for not paying quarterly tax payments.

I think I can get around the crypto gains existing before the buisness creation date by starting a sole prop instead of a LLC. That way I could easily integrate expenses and income with my name without being argued with.

No matter what I do, I think I'm fucked in the asshole this year. I may go to Thailand and just fuck trannys for next year instead of paying the tax. Fuck it. Live the dream right?

Technically, you should according to the IRS, but this is probably the best way to doge taxes if you have a lower amount of gain. Some of us just have too much to realistically cash out this way.

and how will you be able to even pay it if you have no job and don't want to cash out / don't have a way to cash out to USD? I don't have a coinbase to be even able to sell the crypto to pay the tax. fuck it.

polonium and bittrex are not going to report you. They're probably based in the Cayman Islands and don't have to give you a 1099.

It's similar to Bovada and other online gambling outlets.

The fact of the matter is - Don't tell on yourself if you're not given a 1099. The IRS are the most pathetic accountants I've ever dealt with. The 26 year old kid that's going to audit you is the same guy that couldn't get in at KPMG. He/she is making 40k a year and I've only worked with sheboons in my career. These fat black ladies don't give two shits and sure as shit won't have an easy time doing a reconciliation.

I'm so fucing embarassed at the FUD that's presented on this website. You guys give the IRS way too much credit. They're literal chimps that couldn't make it in the Corporate world.

I agree with you, but the off chance that you get picked as the example makes this an unacceptable option to me. We've made all this money, is it really worth going to prison over? I think the only acceptable option is to convert to XMR, send to an anonymous BTC account and hold until it's a world currency, or something like that. The government and deep state will do something to try to shut it down before that happens, so be in it for the long hall.

This won’t affect the market much. There is a lot of ppl waiting to enter the market, and they will buy the fuck out of any dip with their tax return

Until those exchanges are hacked by wikileaks and the IRS links your address to the one of the addresses that they pilfered from Coinbase.

From memory, I think you can only claim a maximum capital loss per year of 3,000 but the rest can be deferred to future years. So, the question is that if you have tens of thousands of gains this year that you should report due to crypto to crypto trading, but the market crashes hard before April, are you fucked?

To explain further who people who want to understand why the way crypto taxes are so retarded.

Traditional investment
Buy Asset --> It goes up --> Sell for USD --> Taxes are paid with USD --> Buy another asset using the gains you made on the previous - taxes which is incidentally the cost basis which is lower than the sell price of your asset but higher than the initial basis.

Crypto investing
Buy asset --> It goes up --> Trade it for another
--> Owe taxes in USD that you never had but have in the investment --> It goes way down --> You are now in debt to the IRS

The premise is that once you sell your investment you have money to pay your taxes with. Failing to do so and reinvesting it is where the IRS fucks you. It makes perfect sense in a traditional investing environment when you get cash for every trade.

However the reason 1031 was created was for situations like this in real estate. Crypto is taxed as property and on every trade make no mistake but it's incredibly stupid to treat it as such without allowing tax-deffered trading.

I use VPN and an alternate email address.

They're not going to spend the resources to catch 50k. They're going to be looking into The Winklevoss twins and other big players that might be selling.

Polo and bittrex make you submit a fucking mugshot, SSN, and address.

You're delusional if you think they aren't going to tattle to the IRS

I don't know, but there has to be a way to claim something as 'lost records.' I mean, throughout history this has to have come up. If it's a significant amount I would look for an accountant that accepts BTC clients. From what I've experienced a lot of the local accountants just don't know what it's all about and reject you.

They're not even based in the US. If you truly believe Polo is based in a tiny office South of Boston, you're delusional.

No Cayman Island company is going to provide information to the IRS. The FUD is amazing. Why tell on yourself if you don't receive a 1099? I've been a finance controller for 5 years and work closely with our tax director. The IRS are a joke. Wesley Snipes got 2 years for millions of dollars of tax evasion and being blatant about it.

The IRS isn't going to spend 2 weeks which would be probably 2 auditors @ $20 billable hour = $3200 + FICA to go after your maybe $4000 in tax revenue.

Correct..

OP is full of shit and creating a panic so people sell now and create a small dip so he can buy.

OP is a faggot Jew.

I use cointracking.
cointracking.info? ref=L656928
yes it's a ref link but it was money well spent. import api from any exchange and it tracks every damn trade. 500 free trades i think still.

I'm in the they tax your gains (of the amount you using for the new trade) when you make any trade camp. The IRS are fucking cunts, when in doubt believe the evil version.

If you trade bitcoin for real world goods, its the same problem?

BTC-->Computer. You probably payed sales tax (in btc). But now you owe a great deal of worth of the computer in USD to the government. At no point do you have or even decide to use cash, but you owe the jew government.

Sounds like an amazing option... I'm just not on the level of cash out for life. It's a shame, since i bought ETH at 7 bucks. I could have bought a hundred times more than I did, but didn't. Enjoy your gains, and if you find a real way around the taxes, please send me a message:

[email protected]

The best way is to wait a year, so it goes down 15 percent instead of 30 percent.

Yep

These people in this thread are delusional.

You ONLY pay capital gains tax.

>40%

Why is this allowed? Seriously why the fuck do we allow this?

>but but who pays for muh roads?

Why do i have to pay more and get punished just because i know how to deal with money instead of being a wasteful monkey? Why must i contribute more than others for something that we are all going to use equally?

The problem is that there arent many rich people in the world. If there were, there would be a revolution tomorrow. I can understand up to 20% but 40% is absolutelly fucking ridiculous, specially when you made it in something like crypto where you dont know what tomorrow holds you. Will the government tive me 40% of my losses back if lose all my money?

Im moving to a tax haven as soon as i make it. This is a fucking joke

I work at a multi billion dollar bank that is highly regulated.

You underestimate them. I've seen really good FED auditors and IRS agents. Maybe most are unqualified but they do have the best in the buisness, make no mistake.

Also, bittrex is in Seattle and polo is in DE

This is not FUD btw, I'm honestly not trying to get raped.

either take it to a crypt0 tax specialist (lol it's a unicorn) or report total gain/loss over the year

Cointracking.info
May have to go through and remove all the cancelled orders though.

Yeah, I'm definitely not big enough to control the market like that. I understand you want this all to go up forever, but my point is valid. People will want to cash out for tax purposes, which could lead to a run.

I've seen this one and that bitcoin tax one, I've saved your referral link and if I decide to use one, I will use your referral. Just too late to really look into it.

I really, really hope you're right. This would be idea for me at the moment. But when will we get clarification, or do we just have to hope?

Paying ridiculous taxes is stealing from yourself and family. Its against the 7th commandment. Since my religious beliefs are protected, I don't think its moral to do anything. Since you didn't consent, its allowing theft.

You don't go to prison for assuming that crypto is a black box and paying taxes only on realized gains. The IRS hasn't made a clear ruling on this and even if they had being genuinely ignorant of what you owe in situations like this is a valid excuse and you just have to pay what you ultimately owe. As long as you dont' provably attempt to evade taxes you're safe from catastrophic problems.

SALT makes the tax man go bye bye and it is launching right before the year ends...

this. normies don't know how to hold onto money, tax returns are going to go directly into crypto

How can they tax you if you don't cash out?

They have no way of knowing, but when you need or want to cash out, someone will want to know where that cash came from. We can only hope that we won't need to cash out.

Because polo and bittrex will tattle your holdings and they'll compare it to coinbase

Bittrex is in Vegas

you don't have to pay taxes until the middle of april 2018...why would you sell in the middle of dec to 'have cash on hand' for an event 4 months in the future?

The IRS is a fossil. They are years away from properly updating their systems and keep getting less and less funding. The new tax cuts will throw a curve ball at them and they will be in total disarray. Mismanaged bureaucracies clog when faced with abrupt changes and don't do well when faced with exponentially evolving technological revolutions. The Dems are too obsessed with Trump too even notice what else is going on around them. Let the IRS try and track your trades. Look at their pathetic attempt to data mine with their transparent giveaway threads. They are a shadow of what they once were and are increasingly disrespected and hated. They are becoming a joke and should be laughed at and ridiculed until they are driven to suicide.

I appreciate your candor and share your views as well. I'll definitely throw some cash their way to stay off the radar, but I agree that it's only a matter of time before the IRS (and the deep state for that matter) collapse under its own gluttony

What if you only trade in p2p exchanges?

>bittrex
>polo

Joke's on you I trade exclusively on Binance.

Chinks don't give a shit. According to my American funds, I've had a maximum of $3000 at any given time, with $2000 being out of my own wallet. Portfolio is 32k. Rest is on wallets. Eat shit taxman.