MtG, magic the gathering

This is MaRo's perception of the color pie.

Do you agree or disagree?

MaRo rarely does anything right, but I have to give it to him today.
She didn't really need to be white, but you could look at it this way: We had a UG walker literally last block. Do we really need another? It would make more sense if she was GWUU, but on some level he's right: She's blue with green and white overlapping.

It seems more like 'Maro is excusing what Development decided' honestly, since Development does most of the work on planeswalker cards, not design

That's fine, I guess, it was a consession to game balance. They wanted her and Jace to have cards in the set, and having two powerful planeswalkers being mono blue would probably be too much. It seems to me that Tamyio, if printed again will either be UG or simply Blue, assuming what Maro said was indeed the reason.

>assuming what Maro said was indeed the reason.
while Maro is often wrong about how awesome things are going to be, and how much people are going to love them, he's typically pretty honest about the reason why little details happen in development.

Up to saying, 'we had an idea, we didn't test it well enough, so the result was fucked up'
Mental Misstep, Skull Clamp, etc

>We can't print a blue Tamiyo because we need more Jace!
Fuck you maro.

> Fuck you WotC(aHS)
Fixed. Don't lambaste the messenger.

God, so much this.

I disagree with the idea that they couldn't have two Blue walkers in the same set, or that they needed Tamiyo to be more broad.

I mean, they've got Sorin as WB, Nahiri as WR, and Arlinn as RG. I don't see how this is much different.

Just last block, they also had Kiora in the same block as Jace and Nissa, so clearly they could have at least had her as simply dual color. I think W/U or W/G would have been a better fit if they only needed it to show how she's different from Jace. Even that's a dumb justification though, since she's a great example of how characters from the same slice of the pie can have different motivations and abilities.

>Jace was in the BFZ block
I think the implication was that they didn't want two planeswalker cards in the same colors in the same block. Saying Jace was in BFZ block would be like saying that Ludevic was in Innistrad block.

What? No, I'm talking about the fact that they had Jace and Kiora both in BFZ block.

Mono blue, Blue-green. They didn't make Kiora Bant or Temur just because jace was there, so clearly Tamiyo didn't need to be.

I don't think a Jace planeswalker card was actually printed in BFZ block. It was Gideon, Kiora, Ob, Chandra, and Nissa.
Right?

>only Jace gets to be mono-blue from now on, development says so.

It just feels like Jace was in BfZ block because Baby Jace was so popular

Just like it felt like Jace was in RtR block twice because Living Guildpact was in M15

Well, point stands. They still had Kiora and Nissa at the same time.

I don't get it, what exactly is the excuse for not giving her any abilities even remotely W or G related?

(You)

Detain is a secondarily white mechanic
The "Creatures matter" part of her +1 is green
There's not much, but it's there.

Yanno, if they didn't want to blue walkers, they could've just left Jace out.

Like, it was an option.

I'd say her ultimate also has some green, as it lets you play creatures without paying the casting cost.

Tapping creatures is white, even if the way that Tamiyo does it is more blue than white, therefore her -2 is blue and white at the same time.
Drawing cards is blue but gaining an advantage when your creatures do things is inherently green, therefore making her +1 blue and green at the same time.

Therefore, although she could be made mono-blue, she can also be made Bant instead.

>had a mono-green and a green gold planeswalkers
>that totally different from having a mono-blue and a blue gold planeswalker.

That's my point. It isn't different at all. What are you trying to say?

She would be more appropriately costed as 1{W/U}U{G/U}, really, but they don't like doing hybrid costs that much so nope

Her ultimate is literally Omniscience with Concentrate tacked on.

going back to where it was said " that they couldn't have two Blue walkers in the same set"
that comment only makes sense if you meant mono-blue.

So I assumed you were arguing for two mono-blue. Which doesn't mach the BFZ case.

Omnisience is really edging into green territory. It got away with it because it was so expensive, but putting permanents into play for free is normally green.

Those were two separate thoughts.

First, I don't see why they couldn't have mono-blue.

Second, even if they couldn't have mono-blue, I didn't see why she couldn't be dual-color instead of tri-color, as dual-color would match the BFZ case

Which is a shame really. Hybrid costs are lots more fun

>First, I don't see why they couldn't have mono-blue.
because it would overpower mono-blue decks, and all decks that use heavy blue.

> I didn't see why she couldn't be dual-color instead of tri-color, as dual-color would match the BFZ case
maybe in this case they needed more restriction than in the BFZ case.
Maybe it was to give Tamiyo a more unique identity, as Venser was W/U, and Kiora very much has the U/G slot.

I don't see why this is a major problem. She's not actively not bant.

If she was mono-blue, she would have shot up to 3UU/4UU in cost.

>I didn't see why she couldn't be dual-color instead of tri-color, as dual-color would match the BFZ case
Because she'd be hilariously overpowered or expensive if she was dual-color

'Mana acceleration and shoving free stuff into play' is green though. So Omniscience is something that can easily be a GU effect.

Honestly, it's a bit questionable why Omniscience is a blue effect in the first place as 'Free shit' isn't really part of Blue's colour stuff.

If she had been able to be printed in two colors, it would have been better to see her in UW than UG.

Pretty much, he reads "I wanted Tamiyo and development wouldn't let me have her unless it was one more selesnya card for their WG fetish".

I've always considered Tamiyo to be a little bant in flavor, if I was forced to pick a tricolor combo for her

Tricolor cards come in 3 forms

1-actually representative of the 3 colors in an interesting way, there's like a handful of these in all of magic's history

2-doesn't really capture all 3 colors but is decently fun to play with and doesn't outright break any color pie rules, bant tamiyo is in this category, another example would be Doran the siege tower

3-very hamfisted and obvious combination of signature effects from different colors, see the charms from alara and tarkir, or nicol bolas planeswalker's ultimate (his other abilities were more interesting for grixis and very flavorful)

Something I saw in another thread that made me realize that Bant works very well for her is that 'Bant is basically the Starfleet colours'. Tamiyo would not be out of place in starfleet blues talking about how they can't break the prime directive, even if it would cost them their lives.

I cant hate this reasoning because I like the card too much. Even if its stupid it gave us a nice card which matters in the end, right?

>I've always considered Tamiyo to be a little bant in flavor, if I was forced to pick a tricolor combo for her
Why tho?
In my opinion:
>Bant
Kiora after OGW
>Esper
Vronos
>Grixis
Bolas
>Jund
Sarkhan
>Naya
Ajani
>Mardu
Sorin after EMN
>Temur
Tamiyo, she's an astronomer driven by passion for knowledge, not community, order, peace or whatever bull
>Abzan
Nissa
>Jeskai
Narset, eventually
>Sultai
Vraska

>Vronos
I was not familiar with this character until just now. I'm a little upset now, since he seems like he could have been a pretty cool dude.

>passion for knowledge
That's mono U you absolute dingus.

>We had a UG walker literally last block.
???? Did I miss something?
It should be obvious to everyone now that Jace is _THE_ monoblue planeswalker and that Wizards won't print other monoblue planeswalkers anymore. Tamiyo is Bant because MaRo doesn't want his favorite superhero being overshadowed by other superheroes.

Reinforces the fact that everything wrong with MtG today is development's fault.

Never mind, I had completely forgotten that Kiora existed as no one plays her

>Kiora in Bant
the fuck are you on buddy
she's way too selfish for that crap

>Fishtits in white
ahhahaha
>Sorin ever going red, he of the edgelord composure
>Temur Tamiyo
Red. The character that's all about observing and note-taking dispassionately, ever going near the color of emotion and impulsiveness
>Nissa in black
tree-huggers about power or ruthlessness?

mate you have the shittest judgment

dw everyone forgets about fishtits and the time bastard too

>>Nissa in black
>tree-huggers about power or ruthlessness?
What part of 'Elf Hitler' doesn't make her in black, at least at SOME point in her life?

Literally retconned.

...

Nissa has always been about nothing but love and acceptance, user. Racist against non-elves? Pro elf superiority? Nissa's never been like that. You're so silly, user. You must be thinking of someone else...

Dammit, man!

Her +1 isn't 'creatures matter', it's ' don't attack me'.

It can be used offensively as well.

Wouldn't you rather use it on defence as an attempt to get to her ultimate?

Don't know how much it matters but right as shadows came out, the magic origins game has you playing as jace in mono blue, and when tamiyo joins you your deck becomes bant

>the bant walker was this gigantic waste of space
>due to the narrowness of the colors it will be fucking years until we see another one.

Show me any block where they print two walkers of the same color combination. You can have overlap but you don't want them to be exactly the same color because people will call favoritism. That's the primary reason why Sorin became BW even though his so-called altruism can be justified in Black: so they could keep LOTV mono-black.

However, you are right in saying that any block with a Jace card will not feature another mono-blue walker from now on unless they decide to change Jace's color combination.

Sorin is certainly losing white after this block. He gives up on Innistrad entirely and Nahiri encases him in stone. He's coming back to fill in the Rakdos slot.

Depends on the board state.
I would use it offensively if I think there's a good chance to get away with it. Two cards a turn is noteworthy advantage.
And as somebody else mentioned you can still do both assuming Vigilance.

>passing up an opportunity to print Jace
We both know that "options" and "realistic options" are two different things.

>they could've just left Jace out.
>man thrown out of the window for suggesting reasonable idea at the board meeting.jpg

There was also Narset who took the WU slot even though she came out 2 blocks ago. It may have been too soon to have another WU Planeswalker within a year of each other.

>Sorin becomes mono-B
>Liliana becomes the new BW planeswalker after joining the Jacetice League

>tfw one of those questions is yours.

>Kiora
>Bant

At the final battle she literally said "Fuck this place" and summoned a giant tidal wave that would have wrecked everything if Jace hadn't stepped in

That's what I think. Sorin goes B.R, freeing up B/W for Elspeth.

All these people who were thinking someone besides Lily would join the watch, or that Lily, Jace, etc will become more than mono-color....WTF do these people think the purpose for Magic Origins was? Literally the origin story for the Gatewatch members.

Then why did they also state, at that time, that Elspeth wasn't just staying white, but becoming MORE monowhite?

Assuming Wizards wants to only have one Planeswalker per color or combination of colors, they still have some overlap especially for the multicolored Planeswalkers.

White: Gideon (Formerly Ajani, Elspeth, Nahiri)
Blue: Jace (Formerly Tamiyo, Teferi Tezzeret)
Black: Liliana/Ob Nixilis (Formerly Sorin)
Red: Chandra/Daretti/Koth/Tibalt (Formerly Sarkhan)
Green: Nissa (Formerly Freyalise, Garruk)

W/U: Narset (Formerly Venser)
U/B: Ashinok/Tezzeret
B/R: None (Formerly Sarkhan)
R/G: Domri/Arlinn (Formerly Sarkhan, Xenagos)
G/W: Ajani
W/B: Sorin
W/R: Nahiri (Formerly Ajani)
U/R: Dack/Ral
U/G: Kiora
B/G: Garruk/Vraska

W/U/B: None
W/U/G: Tamiyo
U/B/R: Nicol Bolas
B/R/G: None
R/G/W: None
W/U/R: None
W/B/G: None
U/B/G: None
B/R/W: None
R/G/U: Sarkhan

It's pretty much confirmed that Tibalt is going to be BR the next time we see him. Also not going to be a 2 drop.

Run me down which abilities go in which colour pie again.

Like every ability ever?

Yeah, why not. I'd rather not chance it with a search engine.

Just go find the custom card thread. They tend to have a decent list

Is some crusty old list that was knocking around here for at least four years now, merely "decent", really the best there is?

He exists exclusively so that Garruk has someone to killfuck in whichever DotP game.
Because fighting women is sexist.

They printed her in the investigate colors because that's what she was doing on Innistrad the whole time. Personally I don't think that investigate should be green because it's not a green mechanic at all, wizards just slapped it on there to make green better at drawing cards than black

The Jace they printed isn't even good. It's literally there just to have a new Jace card.

Why not 1U(G/U){W/U)?

Because it's a clusterfuck of a CMC in a block without anything like that?

They you know could have not printed another Jace.

Some of us are just sad, user. It can be hard not to be in denial about wasted story opportunities.

I don't think they only want one planeswalker per color combination; it's pretty clearly just one per color combination in a given block.

As someone who really likes Jace, I honestly also wish they hadn't printed him again. It just makes him overexposed and makes people not like him, plus his story arc would have made so much more sense if he'd just stayed on Ravnica with his responsibilities.

I think that the walkers should be printed equally in steps. 3 mono to 2 duel to 1 Tri. if there are 7 blue walker card printed they should be banned from making more until the other colors and combinations catch up.

But then they can't have Return to Return to Ravnica in the near future!

If they want Jace to remain the Posterchild of Magic, they should have someone else take over being the Guildpact.

He's so much more interesting as the Guildpact though. Dammit, WOTC.

Yes.

Because listing out every ability and which slice(s) of the pie it falls under is a really big task.

The problem is that being the Guildpact means that they should for the most part be stationed in Ravnica, but Jace is doing anything but. I'd rather have Niv-Mizzet or someone else take over that role. I would rather have him steal Ral whatever's spark and go around the Multiverse doing Mad Scientist things.

That is extremely disappointing. MtG is lacking in crucial autism.

Jace not living up to his commitments isn't a good reason for Jace not to live up to his commitments, and Niv would hardly be an acceptable Guildpact. He would never be impartial.

Like others have stated, If we ever come back to Ravnica, hope that there will be consequences for Jace being away from the plane.

If they had to change the cost for development, they could've at least made new abilities to match the colors.

This. Why don't her abilities reflect UWG? There are tons of UWG cards for the design team to look to.

I think blue has historically gotten too much attention, but Christ that's stupid. I'd be legit pissed if this was a color or walker I cared about. Is there anything over-worrying about limited formats WON'T ruin?
Someone disagreed with me in a thread about this yesterday, it feels good to be vindicated by Maro himself.

I'm not upset because of blue, I'm upset because we finally have a Bant walker, but she doesn't have Bant abilities. Who knows if we will ever get one again. Now I'm just hoping that Wizards doesn't screw up the Esper and Naya walkers.

It's not limited that they're worrying about, but standard. That there'd be too many monoblue walkers and thus blue would be too good (so instead they print her in the colors that already have a winning deck...?)

Idk, that + 1 seems pretty nifty. Sorry bant buddy.

>limited that they're worrying about, but standard
I'll be honest, I thought standard WAS limited. I guess I shouldn't talk about shit I don't know about, but I think my point still stands.

They printed her in those colors because Tamiyo in red or black is absolutely retarded, and Maro begged to have her included. This card was probably designed months ago, so the current competitive Standard scene wouldn't factor into their decision. I doubt they ever look at the top colors in the format when designing cards to begin with.

>they already had a dominant mono-U Jace in Standard
>they added a substndard mono-U Jace to Standard because Jace
>"Well we can't possibly add a mono-U 'Walker to Standard"
So fucking stupid. And people keep defending this like the decision to add Jace to SOI was somehow out of WotC's hands.

Wizards is not going to pass up an opportunity to shoehorn Jace into a set being that he is the face of Magic. The only reason I can see for him not being in BFZ block is because they were still transitioning into the two set per block format.