Now, I know it's not the most popular opinion, but what if these are actually the good guys?

you can't really call it a betrayal when so much hostility emanates from the Imperium that they won't let them live in peace. They're treated no better than xenos despite being human beings.

10k years for us. For them, because of 4th degree interdimentional warp fuckery, it could be as little as a century. This is for superhumans who are likely biologically immortal. The fact that they keep raiding, killing, using warp magic and worshipping the Dark Four means that they still don't give a fuck about dooming the Imperium to the slow decay amd misery. that it has endured for 10k years, instead of a rise back up to Golden Age prosperity under Emps.

There are no good guys in 40k. There is only complete and utter dickassery from all parties involved.

>rise back up to Golden Age prosperity under Emps.
the Emps is dead though

the inquisition are also bad guys

news flash everyone's a bad guy in 40k, that's why it's a "grimdark" setting

Human beings who constantly and unwaveringly attack and kill other human beings using methods that are exponentially more harmful to humanity than they need to be.

That second to last one is horrifyingly, hilariously inaccurate

Because of the Chaos Space Marines falling to Chaos and following Horus

lol yep

which happened a thousand years ago and got Horus killed as well. Why the Imperium maintains this pointless conflict despite both the guilty parties being dead is beyond me. Usually men abandon the claims of dead leaders.

See If the traitor Legions had thrown down their arms or begged forgiveness for killing their progenitor, or laying their brothers, then I could see them having some shred of decency left. But they didn't , and they continue the struggle to eradicate the Imperium and enslave humanity under the banner of the Dark gods

>Police don't have secret hit-squad or power-armored goons who kill people just for knowing they exist.

The American one does.

*Slaying their brothers

Sorry, phone posting

>American
Which sector is this? I don't know the name.

>zero corruption. Seriously, how often do you hear a warband that was skimming off the top of tax revenue?

That's because their economic system functions on the "he can't stop me from taking his shit if he's dead" system., and they infight all the fucking time on matters of faith, the chaos god's hate each other, and so often do their followers.

Emps fought for the good of humanity, CSM fights for the good of their gods and the rewards granted by them.

>I think it would do us all good to sit down and talk as much as we like about how these guys really aren't that bad.
You're right, they're much worse. They're a greater and more constant threat to mankind than almost all the rest of the xenos combined.

Power armored goons is SWAT and the secret hit squad of killing people who know too much is I dunno CIA or FBI or something? You know, those movies and television shows where these government men in black just abduct you and make you disappear.

That's not Magnus

>you can't really call it a betrayal when so much hostility emanates from the Imperium that they won't let them live in peace.

...I think you fundamentally misunderstand the concepts of "betrayal," the Horus Heresy, and how Chaos Space Marines actually function as a unit (Here's a hint: it's hyperviolence purely for its own sake, because the Gods demand it).

>The American one does.
Actually, no, it doesn't. Not in the sense that you're describing.

However, LATIN American ones, on the other hand...

It's not like the Imperium is in the Warp messing with them.

My friend, you are confusing drug cartels for the government. We government officials, we are eh, how you say, very ethical.

>inb4 drug cartels are the government

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Institute_for_Security_Cooperation
>WHINSEC has said "that no school should be held accountable for the actions of its graduates." [after, among many other things, literally training South American anti-democratic hit squads in assassination and torture]

>>inb4 drug cartels are the government
But in Mexico they literally are. One of the biggest sources of inter-cartel violence is over who controls which politicians and therefore enjoys which legal protections in which state.

It's fucking ridiculous, and I'm honestly 100% in favor of "conquering" Mexico and stringing every last Cartel operative/Law Enforcement/Politician up by their necks until dead, because that is LITERALLY the only way they'll ever see justice. If you think it's not that bad, you're absolutely wrong.

The level of control is to the point where cartel operatives ride around town shooting guns in the air and shouting their allegiance with no repercussions whatsoever, and bodies being found in the street directly related to cartel violence are almost a weekly occurrence in most states.

>literally training South American anti-democratic hit squads in assassination and torture

To be fair, they weren't those when they were trained. They just changed their mind when they realized they could use their new strength to do whatever they actually wanted.

Well of course they weren't that before they'd been trained to be that, but it was perfectly well understood that they were trained to be that.

>zero corruption. Seriously, how often do you hear a warband that was skimming off the top of tax revenue?

Well played user.

>zero corruption.

>U.S. is the market for the drugs being smuggled through Mexico
>U.S. drug policy is the reason it's profitable to smuggle it through Mexico
>U.S. should invade and annex the country and kill its governmental government to the last man
>this fixes the problem

>governmental government
Uh, meant "governmental workers", or something. I'm sleep deprived. I'm going to sleep now.

>don't go and murder entire planets of their own people on matters of "faith"

Nigger that is LITERALLY the sole purpose of existence for pretty much all the Chaos Legions (bar Night Lords and Iron Warriors).

>of their own people
CSMs don't have any "own people", they only galaxide other people.

YUP, WE R GOOD GUYS! IGNORE THE SCREAMING OF SOULS.

>CSMs don't have any "own people"

didnt World Eater's more or less imploded on themselves (half of which was probably Kharn's killcount)

Without spending 20+ posts trying to go into the organization of the Mexican CArtels and how they actually operate, I'll put this as simply as possible:

No matter what the US does, the Cartels as organizations will still exist and be ludicrously profitable because of how thoroughly ingrained they are into Mexico's economy through extortion, racketeering, gambling, illegal weapons trade (yes, most Mexican guns are smuggled north, not south) coyotes, and human trafficking, as well as legit operations and laundering schemes, and how ridiculously effective the Gulf, Pacific, Sinola, and Los Zetas Cartels have been in bribing literally every politician they can get their hands on, in every single branch of service from the Army to the postmaster of tiny towns. They even controlled Los Pinos (The Presidential Palace) during the administration of Vicente Fox, with men flagrantly giving the Presidents wife suitcases full of diamonds and hard cash in broad daylight, and nothing being done about it anywhere.

It is this incredible level of financial power and political protection that prevents them from being extradited to the US, because the US doesn't want to completely undo the Latin American relations they been working so hard to rebuild by overriding the sovereignty of the Big Brother of Central America despite the fact that such a decision would be hugely popular by Mexican-Americans. As long as they own the President (they still do) they have completely free reign of the entire country, to do whatever they please so long as they don't give the US causa belli to merit a full-blown invasion (and they've come close), up to and including broad daylight running battles between different cartels, and even police getting into gunfights with cartels on other cartels orders so they can get a cut of the money.

As long as they are protected by Mexico, they will do nothing but cause suffering for the entire country.

Well if America DOES have that I just found out about it and consequently will now be terminated for possessing that knowledge. So thanks for killing me, user

I'm taking you down with me!

>CSMs don't have any "own people",

>what are Daemon Worlds

Temples to the Dark Gods don't build themselves, user.

Warp literally mutates people and drives them insane. 40k doesn't really have an objective good-guy faction, but chaos is absolutely evil by any reasonable definition.

>>zero corruption. Seriously, how often do you hear a warband that was skimming off the top of tax revenue?
Didn't the guy responsible for the Rubic Marines entirely go around Magnus' back to do it?

The majority of their income still comes from drug smuggling to the U.S., the only reason they could become so big as to make tons of money off other criminal activity is because they became that powerful through drug smuggling, the Mexican guns smuggled north are sold to for instance groups who control the production of the drugs smuggled from Mexico, the money to bribe politicians still comes from drug smuggling, the money is still drug smuggling money, the power is still money and violence from drug smuggling, etc. etc..
As long as the U.S. has the world's by far largest drug consumer market and Mexico is a corridor for those drugs the country remains utterly incapable of handling the issues created through it by no fault of their own, as it's the drugs that created the issues of political corruption: the political corruption did not create the market or the smuggling. You've misunderstood which situation it is that feeds the other.

>CSM thread turns into the specifics of drug trafficking and cartel politics

And OP tried to claim CSM weren't evil.

well to be fair I think he didnt think they would be stuck as Dust Marines for eons.

>The majority of their income still comes from drug smuggling to the U.S.

Hmm one of my Econ professors claim they get the majority of their income through mining extortions.

>care only for humanity, liable to hate and purge xenos far more than Imperial forces do

They "care" for humanity the same way the owner of a sweatshop cares for his employees.

> Just look at how they've taken the fight to the Eldar while most Imperium forces just ignore the threat.

Are the Eldar a major threat to humanity? I've always seen it as this; the Imperium's got a full plate right now, and the Eldar are barely hanging onto the edge of it.

>Adapted to survive and thrive in an environment that is anathema to most xenos
Anathema to most humans as well

>able to channel this environment to fight these xenos even better than Imperial forces
See above

>some are even immune to chemical weapons, making those weapons perfect for use against xenos
Having weapons suited to fighting xenos doesn't make their intentions good. Aren't the Necrons uniquely suited to fighting the Tyranids, since they can't provide them with biomass and their weapons even prevent Tyranids from collecting the biomass of their fallen? By this logic the Necrons could be considered "the good guys", since they might be able to hold off the Tyranids.

>zero concern for their people defecting and joining xenos, they're too loyal for that
How many Xenos are actively recruiting members of other races to join their ranks? Unless I'm mistaken (which is totally possible, I don't follow 40k that closely), there's only the Tau. I doubt the Tau would be interested in accepting Chaos cultists as members.

>don't go and murder entire planets of their own people on matters of "faith"
Khornate followers do. Slaughter is their faith.

>zero corruption. Seriously, how often do you hear a warband that was skimming off the top of tax revenue
Tzeentch probably does it all the time, he's the taxmaster reborn.

Well, I suppose that may have changed in recent years, what with the whole corruption thing becoming bigger and bigger. I honestly haven't kept up for awhile now, so if the situation has changed I admit ignorance. I'll look it up later. Too tired right now. Either way it was drug smuggling that created the problem, and I would venture to say provides the foundation: political corruption or not, mining extortion or not, what remains fundamentally out of the country's control is the South American sellers and the U.S. market.

You kind of misunderstand what I was trying to say.

The drug money is their primary source of income, but what makes them so dangerous is that at this point they have branched out so thoroughly into other sectors (legal and illegal) that only attacking the drug problem (or even viewing it as a drug problem anymore) grossly misunderstands the situation and underestimates what these guys are capable of.

While they arose to take advantage of a drug market, what enabled them to flourish as ridiculously as they did was the complete lack of political accountability in the Mexican system and how easy it was for most Mexican politicians to be bribed by these cartels.

They have spent so much time and effort putting up "legitimate" organizations and expanding into other markets that removing the drug market, while causing short-term chaos, will not be nearly enough to handle them or remove them from society because their portfolio is too diversified today. What enabled them to get this strong is the relative ease with which Mexican politicians could be bought by cartels, and how little control the Mexican government has in many areas of the country. Couple this with the schizophrenic relationship between Mexico and the US (by both parties) and they have an INCREDIBLE amount of freedom to do whatever they want.

Blaming the US for this problem removes the blame from the people who let it get this bad in the first place when they had the capacity to stop it yet chose to take the easy way out. Too many good people die in the drug war, and too many good people get bought and turned into bad people. Blaming the US removes any agency from the Mexican people themselves, and discredits how hard many of them are working to stop it.

>Hmm one of my Econ professors claim they get the majority of their income through mining extortions.

I wouldn't say "majority," but protection rackets are incredibly common among the Cartels. They're weaning themselves off of drugs (not abandoning it, mind you, just expanding elsewhere) because there's been a global trend of decriminalization, and they don't want to take the hit when it inevitably comes. Far easier to just extort the ever-living shit out of people and rob institutions of "invisible money."

This is a really insincere argument made in abstractions that aren't even consistent with the setting themes, lore, writing, models, etc.

They don't care for humanity, they care for themselves as individuals. They betrayed their oaths to Humanity and chose their own aspirations at the cost of billions of deaths and their eternal damnation. Actual eternal damnation of their souls.

Eldar get rkt by anyone who needs to prove how badass they are in plot. Space marine chapters destroy entire craftworlds and maiden worlds all the time.

The warp isn't anathema to many xenos. Mostly just orks, nids and tau. Multiple examples of chaos infecting and using xenos on a species wide level. Saruthi, Rak'Gol, those floating things from xenology, arguably the eldar, etc.

The forces of chaos are far too busy fighting each other to even get together enough to launch a black crusade more than once every 500 years let alone fight xenos on any scale. They're too self obsessed, don't care about the species or the galaxy. Their motto is let the galaxy burn, not save the galaxy from the aliens.

Some of them aren't immune to chemical weapons, some imperial forces are, some xenos are immune to chemical weapons. Totally irrelevant point.

Much more plausible that some worshipper of chaos will backstab his cohort for personal gain than servants of the imperium. One of their greatest champions is called The Betrayer, another is infamous for betraying his primarch and fucking over his entire chapter with sorcery, another for being a closest xenos and using his psychic mind powers to help strand and corrupt his legion in the warp, and another for being the most self centred dickass swordsman in the entire galaxy. Loyalty isn't the strong suit of the TRAITOR LEGIONS.

Word Bearers.

What do you think corruption means?

The imperium sucks, but so do these guys.

Why does Chaos fanboy roleplaying lead to much better threads than Tau fanboy roleplaying?

Because Tao fanboys are jap-loving fuccbois.

Because Taufags and the Tau faction are fucking garbage cancer? For all the bad things you can say about CSMfags, IGfags, Eldarfags, marinefags, SoBfags, etc, at least none of them are fucking Tau.

GO ON OP, THIS THREAD INTERESTS ME FOR REASONS UNRELATED TO THE FALLEN

WHAT ARE THE FALLEN

None of that changes that the core issue that gives rise to all the killings and corruption are the drugs. I'm not blaming the U.S.: I'm identifying the cause of the problem. There're (mainly) South American cartels producing the drugs, Mexican cartels buying from them and transporting it to the U.S., American gangs buying it from the Mexicans, and then the American gangs sell to American consumers. Mexico has no ability to address the issue of the South American producers, not enough ability to address their own situation as corridor for smuggling, and beyond diplomacy they have no ability to address the issues of the U.S. as a consumer. The issue is multi-faceted and difficult with many social, economic, cultural, legal, military, globally political etc. factors, but the foundation of the corruption and violence in Mexico are the drugs. Domestic crimes can possibly be addressed under hypothetical circumstances: the issue of being the middle man cannot, it's fundamentally out of Mexico's hand. That's why the drug smuggling needs to be taken out of the equation before anything else can be addressed, because it makes impossible any kind of resolving of the myriad other problems that have been spawned by it. Those other issues won't just go away if you take away the drug money, but at least there's a greater chance of them being addressed, or them being addressed leading to some kind of improvement of the country's affairs, whereas leaving the drug money flowing but addressing the extortion still leaves the money the made the extortion possible coming. There's obviously no use talking about South American countries just up and removing their status as producers, it's handled by non-democratic criminals same as Mexico. Legalization of drugs in the U.S. is the most realistic step towards a solution, and the only solution worth talking about as it's the only democratic instance still capable of taking action against the problem.

I DONT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT AND ON AN UNRELATED NOTE 5 YEAR ENFORCED VOW OF SILENCE FOR YOU

Now, I know it's not the most popular opinion, but what if the Tyranids are actually the good guys?
Hear me out.
>care only for tyranidanity, liable to hate and purge human far more than Eldar forces do. Just look at how they've taken the fight to the Imperials while most Eldar forces just ignore the threat.
>Adapted to survive and thrive in an environment that is anathema to most humans
>able to channel this environment to fight these humans even better than other forces
>some are even immune to chemical weapons, making those weapons perfect for use against humans
>zero concern for their people defecting and joining humans, they're too loyal for that
>don't go and murder entire planets of their own people on matters of "faith"
>zero corruption. Seriously, how often do you hear a warband that was skimming off the top of tax revenue?

Now, I know you all are just going to spam "heresy" memes at me and ignore the discussion we could be having over this, but I'd like to lodge my point. Nail it up on the church doors so to speak. I think it would do us all good to sit down and talk as much as we like about how these guys really aren't that bad.

>kill more xenos than the imperium
In most settings genocide of any kind is looked down upon, especially for sentient beings.

I think we all know the REAL good guys are.

Glory to the false emperor!

>Hear me out

>kill more xenos than the imperium
In most settings genocide of any kind is looked down upon, especially for sentient beings.

>kill more xenos than the imperium
In most settings genocide of any kind is looked down upon, especially for sentient beings.

is this the birth of some epic pasta?

Underrated kek

We once had a thread where the Chaos Gods were actually Right and Just. Was pretty fun.

It was called something like Siege of the Eye or some shit.

suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/39407891/

>from CSM morality to mexican drugs cartels infrasructure in 20 something like posts.
Never change, Veeky Forums.

Aside from the fact that a lot of those points ranges from "innacurate" to "I want what you're smoking", a big element in 40k is that fighting bad guys don't make you a good guy.
So why are you insisting so much on xenos?

The really scary part is that when he's firing at you, he's ejaculating bullets and plasma. He's not only murdering you, he has a giant erection when he does it.

BROTHER CHAPLAIN KEEP YOUR VOICE DOWN OR SOMEONE WILL HEAR YOU TALKING ABOUT THE FALLEN THAT BETRAYED OUR CHAPTER TEN MILLENNIA AGO WHOM WE HAVE HUNTED EVER SINCE! WE WOULDN'T WANT THAT INFORMATION TO GET OUT WOULD WE?

FOR FUCKS SAKE BROTHER GOODWIN

Chaos treats everyone like shit, much more so than the imperium. If the average cultist knew what was in store for them, then most would freak the fuck out.

chaos only benefits the chosen few, mostly marine lords.

>>don't go and murder entire planets of their own people on matters of "faith"

Did you miss the "Chaos is constantly at war with itself" fluff?

DON'T WORRY BROTHER MARTIN, I DONT THINK ANYONE HEARD THE BROTHER CHAPLAIN AND OUR ANCIENT DAMNING SECRET, WHICH IS TO SAY THAT HALF OF OUR LEGION ACTUALLY TURNED TRAITOR, IS STILL SAFE!

>Die of the disease I'm already dying of anyway
>Turn into Plaguebearer and be part of Nurgles family
>Die in glorious battle like I'm going to anyway
>Reincarnated as Bloodletter and win glory from Khorne
>Die of ODing on space crack like I'm going to anyway
>Turn into sexy sexy hermaphroditic space bitty.

>Implying anyone but massive asshole join Tzeencth

The real tragedy is the sheer amount of people the Imperium produces who find this alternate lifestyle to be more enjoyable then the one they lived before

>Good guys
>Murders entire planet full of people for no reason

youtu.be/AbmDLVFAaec

I like chaos too user but let's not pretend they're anything more than edgy evil space marines.

>implying implications

This poster gets it.

If rather keep my soul and not have daemons play hackey sack with it.

>Temples to the Dark Gods don't build themselves, user.
Let's not generalise here user. Some do.

You guys should know that we figured that out a while ago, it's fine dudes you can stop the no one can ever know thing and get on with killing the Emperors enemies.

Lorgar, come on man.

LORGAR IS A GOOD BOI

daily reminder the primordial truth was the only chance for humanity to ascend as the children of the gods, but now is doomed to annihilation like the eldar. all that is left now is to save as many mortal souls as possible with aurelian's blessed word, brothers

hey modernist morality spook man

>Legalization of drugs in the U.S. is the most realistic step towards a solution,

Not even that, just because of how thoroughly entrenched the Cartels are in all of Mexican society, and how ludicrously effective they are at turning "funny money" in to "real money" through legitimate businesses. All it would do long-term is legitimize these cartels as legit producers in Mexico (because once the US legalizes drugs, you bet your ass Mexico will, given how thoroughly they control the Senate and the legislative process). All you've done is given these incredibly powerful individuals (who have literally zero problem with absolute brutality when it makes them a profit, up to and including dismembering children in front of their parents and dumping the bodies in mass graves like they do to Nicaraguan migrants).

Decriminalization just gives these guys the opportunity to go legit, and make EVEN MORE money, all while the courts can't touch them because now they're the real deal. You want to take these men, who by their own admission literally kill people for fun, and make them legitimate businessmen? That's pulling a Russia on an incredible scale. Then you still have all of these incredibly corrupt politicians in office who let the problem get this bad in the first place, and what are you gonna do about them? These men who let democracy die in the nation get off scott free, all while protecting the men who pay them MILLIONS to protect them from legal harm. That's a joke of a solution that ignores the problem in the first place.

Decriminalization is a point on the path to fixing the problem, but it's not the first, at all. The politicians (not all of them, but a whooooooole lot of them) need to go, and with them the legal and political protections that they provide to their choice cartels.

but im blaming u.s., they dont regulate their traffic of illegal weapons to mexico, or they money laundry, and yet they still think some narco that lives in mexico has equal power as some politician in the u.s

Sounds interresting, cause I want to start a Chaoswarband, who isn't killing everything for the sake of killing, more likely they joined chaos, cause they want to be independent from the Empire...

Read you ignorant dinobot lover.

Thats a good read and the setting has potential.

...

...

The Mexican drug trade isn't primarily based on domestic production, it's based on import and export. And of course it's a virtually impossible situation to resolve: it was allowed, by the U.S., as the sole possessors of the power necessary to hurt the profitability of the smuggling due to them being the illegal market and ensuring the money went to illegal groups through illegal means. A former killer turned legitimate businessman is better than a killer who's still killing. You need to make the best of a bad situation, if that's the best that can be done. Just up and killing another country's political, jurisdictional etc. establishment is an impossibility. It cannot be done for legal, political, constitutional, moral, and all kinds of other reasons. The drug smuggling is the foundation, the bedrock that makes the cartels difficult to do anything about. Even if you killed every cartel member and corrupt politicians, the supply and demand would persist, along with the need for transportation and distribution, and others would step in to fill the vacuum, because there is too much money and power up for grabs. With that power and money they will then establish themselves in other lucrative sectors in society, they will find people to bribe, they will find people to threaten and blackmail. What should have been done was to put an end to the cartels before they had enough power to establish themselves across society, by legalizing drugs. Without that foundation they could not have build the organizations they have today. It's too late to regret that, now they are where they are. But to combat them where they are today, you still need to remove that foundation, or it doesn't matter how you try to tear down what's been built on it, because with the foundation intact someone will always begin to build anew. And the longer they wait, the more legitimate the top cartel leaders and cronies will become, and they will only get harder to ever prosecute.

cease with your hippy bullshit, never forget never forgive the traitors to the God Emperor.

Actually they try to hide the existence of the Traitor Legions, because it's all kinds of bad PR, plus people knowing about chaos increases the risk of corruption.