/btg/ - BattleTech General

So, we have this for getting IS players with the intro box started.

What would be some interesting and decently balanced Clanner forces to take up against Invasion-era lances from this list?

And a selection of lightly vignetted camouflage for optimal viewing pleasure. Metal Gear.7z: a.pomf.cat/armxyp.7z

That's a big can of worms right there.

I always preferred Timber Wolf to the IS reporting name, even though the latter appears to now be common usage. Am I alone in this?

No, but I do it because I play a lot of Clan forces where the Clan name is (quite obviously) the preferred nomenclature.

Also the Clan names have been getting a bit more exposure lately thanks to MWO using them instead of the reporting names.

BattleTech vs Warhammer 40k
Specifically Inner Sphere mixed unit armies vs a combined Imperial military (Imperial Legion, Space Marines, Titan Legions).
Aside from the fluff and deepest lore how this play out?
For visual representation would Epic be close to BT scale?
To compare wildly incompatible stats would it be easier to one side to the other's rule set? BT to 40k, or 40 to BT?
If we use Epic as 40k's baseline should we use Alpha Strike for BT's baseline?
IS infantry vs Imperial Legion
Battle Armor vs Space Marines
Tanks and Hovercraft vs Other... Tanks and Land Speeders
VTOLs and Aerospace fighters vs Gunships and Thunderhawks
Battlemechs vs Sentinels, Knights, and Titans

I usually talk about them using the Clan names, perhaps because my first exposure to the Clans was Mechwarrior 2 and the 'Mech labs' voice.

GBL still has the best one. "Dire Wolf. Kodiak. STONE RHINO."

>big can of worms

Yeah, but I've got new players seriously interested in both IS and Clan forces and want to be able to have them both play decently.
It wouldn't have to be perfect forces by any stretch of the imagination, but something where both sides can have fun and have nice tactical choices presented to them would be nice.

>What would be some interesting and decently balanced Clanner forces to take up against Invasion-era lances from this list?

There aren't. Clan Stars will wipe the floor with IS lances. I don't even think you can even build a reasonable 5-Mech Star at 6000 BV.

In 3050, a heavy/assault Clan Star is a match for a company. That IS company will match up with a binary of Clan lights. At the lance level, you can kill whole IS lances with individual Clan heavy mechs if you drive hem well. A single Timber Wolf A with a Clan veteran pilot can kill any one of those IS lances (though the sheer weight of armor in the Lyran lance will probably give it the most trouble).

I was introduced to almost all clan mechs by their reporting names, but over time I've started using the clan names more and more.
The easiest to get used to were Hellbringer, Summoner, and Mad Dog. I'm slowly starting to call it the Timber Wolf instead of Mad Cat.

I don't necessarily mean a full star, since that would obviously be overkill.

Something like a 2-mech Clan force would be fine.

Clan and IS forces at the Lance/Star maneuver level are EXTREMELY hard to balance. You certainly wouldn't be able to do the balanced, even spread across the weight classes that I did in that document and get even close to keeping it under 6000 BV2, and putting appropriate Clan pilots (3/4) into all the machines will make things even worse.

A three-Mech Clan unit is likely going to be your best bet, with one unit each from Light, Medium, and Heavy classes. And even then you're going to have a problem. As an example, here's a reasonably flavorful Jade Falcon 3-Mech group with correct G/P scores.

>Clan Jade Falcon
Kit Fox S (3/4) - 1852 BV2
Stormcrow C (3/4) - 2596 BV2
Summoner Prime (3/4) - 3171 BV2
TOTAL: 7,619 BV2

If you drop the Stormcrow and the Summoner BOTH to only 4/5 pilots, you end up with a total BV2 of 6,031, which is in the allowable range to go against the 3050-era Introbox forces. But a force that looks like:

Kit Fox S (3/4)
Stormcrow C (4/5)
Summoner Prime (4/5)

...is going to look awfully anemic next to the IS lances, and especially for new players is going to have a hard time doing well (and forget about winning), largely because they're complete glass cannons.

IS v Clan balance tends to work better once you get to company level games. If the IS player is using all IntroTech, throwing a Star against a balanced company (1 light, 1 medium, 1 heavy lance) is fair. If the IS player is using Clan Invasion TW-era Tech, a binary vs a company is usually better matchup.

Sorry for not being able to be more help.

We've been fucking around with that question since /btg/ was a weekly holiday on /m/, dude.
Loosely:
• Space Marine = Elemental, IG = grunt infantry from any of the Successor States. Or the Periphery, really.
• BT FTL is better, safer, and faster than IoM.
• IoM occupies almost 10 times the territory and has vastly superior manufacturing capability, but no capacity for innovation.

BT armor is likely better than IoM's, but IoM has Void Shields on the biggest shit, and bigger overall units (a Warhound Titan is about the same size and capability as a BT Heavy, a Dreadknight is about the same as a super-heavy Proto, a Knight is a Light, etc.).

BT forces could concentrate force faster, but have a largely inferior navy (the Leviathans are about the only things an IN commander would consider a "cruiser", and they don't have shields). BT does have shtiloads of nukes and biochem and a distinct willingness to use them against an existential threat like the Imperium, as well as superior coordination and FTL comms, but in a total war they'd get BTFO with a sandpaper condom. They'd probably win quite a few early battles and do massive damage to the IoM, however, and if we assume the Imperium has its usual coterie of pressures from outside as well as trying to prosecute a war against the BT verse they'd probably just wind up declaring the sector Perdita and moving on.

>Space Marine = Elemental
Bruh, Elementals are incredibly powerful compared to Space Marines.

There's a thread for this argument, take it over there. Let's not invite this firestorm into the enjoyably calm waters of /btg/.

>Elemental
>Firepower of a Devastator
>Mobility of an Assault
>Armor of a Terminator
>Size of a Centurion

But no one is posting in it. And you guys always seem more chill than 40kids.

>And you guys always seem more chill than 40kids.
Yes, which is why we want to avoid bringing 40kids into the thread

So? The argument is still valid.

>Loosely:
>• Space Marine = Elemental, IG = grunt infantry from any of the Successor States. Or the Periphery, really.
IG grunts are better armored than your average successor state grunt (those with divisor 2 armor are equal), though that's more damning the later than praising the former. An elemental in armor is higher up than a smurf, though. Basically a terminator with even more armor, a multilaser instead of a storm bolter (plus the missile launchers), and with the mobility of an assault marine.

>• IoM occupies almost 10 times the territory and has vastly superior manufacturing capability, but no capacity for innovation.
Either you're really overestimating the size of the IS, or really underestimating the size of the IOM. The red dot here is the IS. The IOM controls most of the galaxy. The IOM has 10,000 times the territory, and both are on average the same on habitable planet density and manufacturing/population per planet (Though the IOM has much larger variance in those numbers).

Overall, 40K as a whole wins, but it's going to be very, very bloody if they fight on the ground. 40k just plain outguns and outmasses BT in space, unless you're throwing the SLDF at them.

>(Though the IOM has much larger variance in those numbers).

Yeah, there's much fewer incidences of true legit feralism and literal Stone Age/medieval tech level regression. Even the "feudal" planets in BT that actually do still have castles and shit tend to also have an average tech level closer to the 19th century at WORST.

Hey, now that Campaign Operations is out, how about a little comparison/test thing?
Say six of us each pick one of the unit generation systems, from the original MHB to CO, and we create six merc units, and see what they look like compared to one another

How many Lyran scout lances would it take to bring down a titan?

Depends how accurate the orbital insertions are.

>The IOM controls most of the galaxy

Not even most.

They're just said to be the most powerful faction currently and have close to a million worlds where the Inner Sphere is probably only a few thousand at the most.

>How many Lyran scout lances would it take to bring down a titan?

Depends on what kind of Titan and what power or race it belongs to.

Imperator Titan

It LOOKS like most on a map, but the overwhelming majority of the Imperium's "territory" is empty, uncontrolled space with entire alien empires crammed in the spots no men tread.

Quite a few given Titans have a longer range than most Inner Sphere mechs.

Reposting this in the new thread, as requested.

Since an ATOW-compliant unit CO is *hugely* important for starting up a force (especially a merc force) in Campaign Companion, and full-on ATOW characters are ludicrously time-consuming to generate using either the Lifepath or the Free XP system, I drafted out a "Quick ATOW Unit CO Generator" last night.

Basically it works like this:
1) Choose one of the 3 Attribute Fields and add +1 to any 2 (or +2 to one) attribute(s).

2) Choose one of the 6 Trait Groups, and add 3 more TP of positive Traits of your choice. You can increase a negative trait by 1 (or choose a new one) in order to get a 4th TP, and you can reduce yourself to a Medium Mech in order to get 1 more bonus TP.

3) You get each of the 3 groups of Field Skills. For each field, choose one of the 3 skill point arrays and apply them.

4) You get one group of miscellaneous skills. Choose one groups and apply the relevant listed point modifiers from that array to your miscellaneous skills.

Done.

I'd really appreciate more sets of eyes looking at it and seeing if any of the Skill or Attribute Arrays or Trait Groups are notably over- or under-powered, or if anybody has any good ideas or concepts which I'm missing.

My current planned revision is to include a rule to allow for the purchase of a single SPA for the character by exchanging 1 attribute point, 1 "free" TP, or 4 skill points to pay for an SPA which you otherwise qualify for. If anyone has any other further commentary, I'd love to look it over before I make this into a nicer-looking PDF.

Some relevant commentary from last night:

Most BT weapons are to-the-horizon though.

Depends on how fast you throw them.

okay, let's do it
roll 1d3 for force type
>1 government
>2 merc
>3 pirate

Rolled 3 (1d3)

ops, I forgot to actually roll the dice

Battletech - medium hard science, based on real technology plus a sprinkling of fantasy rules to make giant robots viable, and a whole bunch of wonky rules that are best ignored if you want to compare it to anything else, like weapon range and ammo bins.

Warhammer 40k - total space fantasy powered by rule of cool, pixie dust and ignoring every law of physics imaginable, with most units being insanely impractical no matter what assumptions you make.

Yeah, lets not compare the two.

An imperator titan would be basically invincable, not only due to its ceramite armor but also is void shields. Combine that with the fact that an Imperator titans main armament could take out an Atlas in a single blow, and i'd reckon you'd have to throw every scout lance the Lyrians have at one

So you're taking campaign ops?
Alright, in an hour or so when I'm back at my books and desktop, I'll do merc handbook 3055, because it's the least used of the systems

Why the hell did we start dragging out the 40k shit? Get thee to a GeeDub store and let us talk about giant robots in peace.

What about a drop ship?

Rolled 5, 1, 1 = 7 (3d6)

>pirate
damn
okay, I'll go with Smoke Jaguar remnants around Wars of Reaving

> Stage 2.1 - roll 3d6 to determine basic budget
moment of truth

and now I forgot to attach image...
I got 50 million c-bills...

Final budget is
50 million x 1.5 (Clan era 3025-3072) x 1 (independent pirate) = 75 million C-Bills

Well that really depends on the dropship. I suppose an Overlord could maybe take a titan 1v1 thanks to its sheer bulk albeit with heavy damage inflicted both ways

Your CO and their abilities are going to change your final budget. It's on page 30. NEA was talking a modifier to your final buget in the 1.4-1.6 region, which is going to be a pretty goddamn hefty percentage for you. You need an ATOW character to do it, tho.

Any Titan bigger than a Warhound is better modeled up as a Mobile Structure, primarily armed with Capital weapons and with a plot device of "fuck it, just nope" with the Void Shields.

Rolled 1, 6, 2, 3, 4, 6, 2, 3, 4, 5, 3, 1, 3, 5, 4, 1, 6, 2, 3, 6, 3, 3, 6, 6, 3 = 91 (25d6)

nah, I don't want to create an ATOW just for this. Thanks for the heads up, though

>stage 3.1 - buy stuff

I don't have too much money, let's go with one or two medium/heavy pirate stars. It seems I have to roll 2d6 for availability, so here's my desired mechs based on HW and Society MUL, their price and what I think is their target number (based on this table)

>Crab CRB-27 - 4,050,875 - 5
>Griffin IIC 2 - 4,087,510 - 5
>Hunchback IIC (Standard) - 8,050,000 - 5
>Pariah (Septicemia) Prime - 12,964,070 - 5
>Pariah (Septicemia) Prime with Veteran Pilot- 12,964,070 - 7
>Ryoken - 14,771,113 - 5
>Ryoken with Veteran Pilot - 14,771,113 - 7
>Thresher - 13,198,400 - 6
>Thresher with Veteran Pilot - 13,198,400 - 8
>Cauldron-Born (Ebon Jaguar) Prime - 17,972,282 - 6
>Cauldron-Born (Ebon Jaguar) Prime with Veteran Pilot - 17,972,282 - 8
>Rifleman IIC (Standard) - 5,741,587 - 6
>Guillotine IIC (Standard) - 7,307,734 - 6
>Flashman FLS-8K - 17,828,125 - 6
>Black Knight BL-6-KNT - 7,136,938 - 6
>Warhammer WHM-6Rb - 6,509,584 - 6

speaking solely fluffwise, how would jag remnants be getting a hold of pariahs

>speaking solely fluffwise, how would jag remnants be getting a hold of pariahs
Really, really fucking easily. Do you remember the main Dark Caste ally of the Society?

Rolled 2, 3, 4, 4, 1, 5, 2 = 21 (7d6)

this time I fucked up the dice roll. it is missing 7 dice
for now this is what I can buy

>Crab CRB-27 - 4,050,875 - 5
7

>Griffin IIC 2 - 4,087,510 - 5
5

>Hunchback IIC (Standard) - 8,050,000 - 5
10

>Pariah (Septicemia) Prime - 12,964,070 - 5
5

>Pariah (Septicemia) Prime with Veteran Pilot- 12,964,070 - 7
9

>Ryoken with Veteran Pilot - 14,771,113 - 7
8

>Thresher with Veteran Pilot - 13,198,400 - 8]
8

>Cauldron-Born (Ebon Jaguar) Prime - 17,972,282 - 6
9

>Rifleman IIC (Standard) - 5,741,587 - 6
12

i actually legit did not. i thought the society mostly kept its special Clan-kicker 'mechs to itself, heh.

Society mechs can be acquired by their Dark Caste allies too

finishin the rolls

>Flashman FLS-8K - 17,828,125 - 6
7

>Warhammer WHM-6Rb - 6,509,584 - 6
7

My star of choice will be

>Crab
>Hunchback IIC
>Paria with Veteran Pilot
>Cauldron-Born
>Warhammer

final price of 45,901,023 C-Bills

...

These are dope, thanks.

>mfw MD out of nowhere last session

Word of Blake jihad greatest days ever

Was the Blakist Battle Armor superior to it's Inner Sphere or Clan counterparts?

Not even. During the Crusade the Imperium of Man virtually annihilated the alien races. Eldar are still around because their planets move or can't be accessed in the Webway, Orks are around because they breed like rabbits, the Tyranids don't hold territory and the Tau are new. When the books say the Imperium controls the galaxy, they mean it. Alien-controlled worlds are rare compared to what humans have. The Eye of Terror is the biggest exception.

Not according to the novels.

Marines are more heavily armoured than anything short of assault BA, and that's debatable given the level of firepower or uber luck or sniper/assassin characters needed to bring one down. Terminators take that to another level and Marines with Rosarii/Iron Crowns/etc are a thing. The board game rules do a very poor job of representing the fluff there. Marines are also way more augmented than Elementals, far beyond even the most hard-core Manei Domini, and the least experienced Marines are still going to have 3-4 decades of training and field experience on average, with Company leaders often boasting three or more centuries of combat experience. It's not even a comparison, Marines are just flat better.

>unless you're throwing the SLDF at them.

40K units have Void Shields. BT has armour. 40K has a massive numerical advantage, and their Corvettes are larger than BT BattleShips.

There's a AdMech novel where a Titan fires its main gun on board a ship and it fucks it up beyond belief. Range issues and Void Shields aside BT units are going to have a rough time with the pace and firepower of so much as a Wolfhound, anything bigger is completely out of the question.

40K is just a whole other level of scale and tech.

The only area BT has an advantage is in FTL travel, which can be traumatic for some but usually doesn't result in the ship missing its jump point by a few systems, arriving decades late, or getting eaten by Daemons on the way.

>Not even. During the Crusade the Imperium of Man virtually annihilated the alien races

That they could find along warp routes that were stable. Those are relatively rare in the galaxy and there are sizable swathes of Imperial space teeming with unknown alien empires and lost colonies that haven't respectively been annihilated or re-absorbed yet because no stable warp routes lead from Imperial staging bases to those regions.

For what purpose? Go back to your containment threads.

Depends on the suit. Some like the Djinn or Shedu are pretty good at what they're designed to do. Some like the Tengu are lacklustre because they try to cover too many roles.

The generalist suits are usually a bit better than IS Standard BA and a lot of their specialised suits are great in their role.

The main weakness they have on things like the Tornado or Purifier is that the armour is on the low side. WoB BA has a fair few Mimetic/Stealth options so they trade being harder to hit for being better protected, which may or may not work depending on how skilled the opposing forces are and whether they bought Pulse Lasers.

The very best Clan BA like the Ironhold still shits on them but suits so well designed are rare.

And this, children, is why WE DON'T TALK ABOUT 40K. You get underage retards.

I'm not allowed to be as familiar with 40K lore as I am with BT, or argue based on that that BT gear is inferior?

A lot of that was taken back in the Great Crusade after the Warp calmed down. Alien-held worlds are in a minority compared to Imperial-held worlds, the Imperium is just ridiculously massive. Granted they fall every now and again but even so it's the exception rather than the rule.

Nothing good ever comes of BT vs. 40k discussions. Ever.

Please, get the fuck out with your 40K bullshit. People have made it pretty clear that it's inappropriate for this thread.

Nothing good ever comes of anything 40k, really.

Nothing good ever comes of 40k VS X in general

I'm just going to leave this here.

You are not alone, sibkin. I myself, personally prefer the Clan names to the IS names for most Clan 'Mechs, though with a few exceptions such as the Ebon Jaguar. "Cauldron Born" sounds slightly better to me for some reason.

Nothing good comes of comparing two different game systems in general.

It's just silly.

Well, it's not like anybody except the Smoke Jags themselves called it that.

I'll ignore this discussion and post qt Black Lanner

Even the Smoke Jaguars call it the Cauldron-Born in the novels.

I've literally only seen Ebon Jaguar used to refer to it in the Tech Readouts.

I commented last night, but I just wanted to say that I'm sorry the thread turned to 40K shit right as you were posting. Maybe bring it up later when stupid shit isn't happening?

I disagree, any discussion that drowns out the retardation is welcome.

I challenge your qt with pure ugliness

What the hell is that?

Arctic Fox, I think

Arctic Fox.

Basically the Kell Hounds looked at the Kit Fox and tried to make their own version of it.

...So it is! Thanks.

I always had a boner for assault vehicles.

...

i like its goofy little happy robot head, it is SO STOKED to go blow stuff up

S'why I posted it.

Can you name this mech?

Retardation cannot be drowned out. It only grows stronger.

Jupiter. Make it difficult, user.

OK.

Marshal.

...

Wasp.

Nice!

OK...

Pretty sure it's a Falcon. Should I be bothered I don't need a book for these?